Will habs ever be successful if they keep Price/Weber?

LyricalLyricist

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Aug 21, 2007
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Serious question. If we don't get Tavares or some fantasy result we're looking at another year without a top C with Price and Weber getting older into their long term contracts. Eventually, if it continues we either A) Go nowhere and then Price is untradeable resulting in extra years of misery B) Only find someone years down the road when Weber/Price are out of their prime.

I realize guys like Lundqvist and Rinne are good late into their careers but it's a big cap for Price, Weber and who knows if we keep pacioretty.

Seems like mediocrity with a high cap hit...

A bit part of me thinks if we don't get Tavares or some equivalent to tear it down. Sort of like Toronto did by trading Kessel. We need to be good enough to get good picks and Price and company won't allow it. If they do...we're even more screwed because we have 10.5 mil tied to a guy who isn't a game changer.
 

Gaylord Q Tinkledink

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Apr 29, 2018
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Pretty much. Even if we get Tavares we need prospects to develop. Also depends on cost.

Montreal needs:
Number 1 centre
Number 2 centre/ LW
Number 1/2 RW (right handed shot who can fire lasers)
Number 1 LD

We basically need all that and can't give up too much from the current roster. By that I mean the ones with value. Need to keep the 3rd overall to draft BPA to offset the high cap hits for the other pieces and we need our 4 seconds to materialize into at least 2 quality prospects that can materialize into NHLers in the next 2, 3 years max so we can trade our more expensive players and have them slide in to keep everything rolling fine.
 

ottawa

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Pretty much. Even if we get Tavares we need prospects to develop. Also depends on cost.

Montreal needs:
Number 1 centre
Number 2 centre/ LW
Number 1/2 RW (right handed shot who can fire lasers)
Number 1 LD

We basically need all that and can't give up too much from the current roster. By that I mean the ones with value. Need to keep the 3rd overall to draft BPA to offset the high cap hits for the other pieces and we need our 4 seconds to materialize into at least 2 quality prospects that can materialize into NHLers in the next 2, 3 years max so we can trade our more expensive players and have them slide in to keep everything rolling fine.

What cup winning team has all that?

We need a #1C and a #1LD, that's it.

Pacioretty - Tavares - Gallagher
Drouin - Galchenyuk - Lehkonen
Byron - Danault - Scherbak/Hudon
Shaw - De La Rose - Scherbak/Hudon

#1LD - Weber
Mete - Petry
Alzner - Juulsen/UFA

Price
 
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LyricalLyricist

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What team has all that?

We need a #1C and a #1LD, that's it.

IMO we need a #1C and a top 2-3 PMD D to be competitive...I think you can add a top 4 D, another center and all that at deadline no problem.

Danault can fill in as #2 for now if you have a Tavares as a #1.

Weber(1), Petry(3), PMD(2-3), is a fair top 3 especially if Juulsen, Mete, develop and you add a top 4 at deadline.

it's workable IMO.
 

LyricalLyricist

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Better question is that ”can we be succesful if they keep Marc Bergevin.” And we know the answer...yikes.

With or without him, this problem of no #1C has plagued countless GMs of the habs.

This isn't a defense of MB but it's just calling it what is. Change MB and problem is still there. Can we be successful with this problem non addressed? I don't think so.

If you want MB gone, perfect. I agree. Next GM still has this mess though so I'd rather talk about the mess in this thread.
 

LyricalLyricist

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Aug 21, 2007
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Montreal
Pretty much. Even if we get Tavares we need prospects to develop. Also depends on cost.

Montreal needs:
Number 1 centre
Number 2 centre/ LW
Number 1/2 RW (right handed shot who can fire lasers)
Number 1 LD

We basically need all that and can't give up too much from the current roster. By that I mean the ones with value. Need to keep the 3rd overall to draft BPA to offset the high cap hits for the other pieces and we need our 4 seconds to materialize into at least 2 quality prospects that can materialize into NHLers in the next 2, 3 years max so we can trade our more expensive players and have them slide in to keep everything rolling fine.

I think your assessment on what we need is a little too much.

We have Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher and Drouin as top 6 wingers. I don't think that's terrible. Not to mention a guy like Zadina or whoever on the way. I don't see it as an issue on the wing.

#1C...definitely an issue.

#2C...also an issue but Danault can probably fill in if the #1C is legit.

#1D. No. We have a #1D in Weber. We just need a top 2-3 D to compliment him. I really like Fowler. I wonder if Ducks do some changes after their poor playoffs.
 
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TheBuriedHab

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It depends if they can start drafting better. Like real offensive talent. Pk Subban has been the best offensive player they drafted in the last decade. They just seem to have a hard time getting offensive stars up front that the good teams in the league have. We need a great player at 3rd overall but also need to find players like Kyle Connor later in the draft. Probably need a new scouting staff
 

LyricalLyricist

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Aug 21, 2007
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It depends if they can start drafting better. Like real offensive talent. Pk Subban has been the best offensive player they drafted in the last decade. They just seem to have a hard time getting offensive stars up front that the good teams in the league have. We need a great player at 3rd overall but also need to find players like Kyle Connor later in the draft. Probably need a new scouting staff

Barring a top pick or a Pastarnak type jumping in even if habs drafted a future #1C in say 3rd round he would take 3-4 years to be that good. Weber would be 36, Price would be 34, Max 33, etc...

I think damage is done.
 

Spearmint Rhino

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Sep 17, 2013
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I look at a team like Toronto that dumped Kessel and Phaneuf for basically scraps and turned it around pretty quick, with those 2 players on their team this playoffs maybe they are still playing

Of course the argument will be with those 2 players they don't finish bottom 5 and get to draft the likes of Marner and Matthews

Price has zero trade value at the moment so that decision should be made for us unless we just want to dump him, problem is with Price on his game we are likely not finishing bottom 10 so the rebuild is tougher without surefire players coming in. We've also been spoiled with goalies over the years for the most part, an average Price is enough for a complete team to compete, lots of stacked teams have been let down by hopeless goalies over the years

Weber has some value that might help the rebuild but even if it takes us 3-4 years to turn it around Shea could still be an above average D on that team for several years. As we have seen around the league you still need veterans around to help the kids, you see Marleau signing for big money in Toronto coming into 40

Basically if we want to tank move them out and tank properly, I'm talking dealing anyone older than Gallagher. If we are trying to compete at all keep them cause the returns aren't going to help us more than they should be able to in a few years
 
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LyricalLyricist

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Aug 21, 2007
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Tavares...
McDavid...
Eichel...

Even with a great #1C, no guarantee of success.

You need a well managed roster & we'll run organization for any chance at sustainable success.

Absolutely, no question.

I think habs have good pieces and a #1C adds to that. Edmonton doesn't have a Price or Weber, neither does NYI, Buffalo, etc...

If we get a #1C, #1D, #1G and top 6 wingers like max, drouin, galchenyuk, Gallagher, etc... we're in decent shape.

So the hole is obvious, can the GM do it? I don't think so. Can I fire him? Nah. I can talk about the obvious result though.

If he fails to do it, he needs to rebuild IMO.
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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Serious question. If we don't get Tavares or some fantasy result we're looking at another year without a top C with Price and Weber getting older into their long term contracts. Eventually, if it continues we either A) Go nowhere and then Price is untradeable resulting in extra years of misery B) Only find someone years down the road when Weber/Price are out of their prime.

I realize guys like Lundqvist and Rinne are good late into their careers but it's a big cap for Price, Weber and who knows if we keep pacioretty.

Seems like mediocrity with a high cap hit...

A bit part of me thinks if we don't get Tavares or some equivalent to tear it down. Sort of like Toronto did by trading Kessel. We need to be good enough to get good picks and Price and company won't allow it. If they do...we're even more screwed because we have 10.5 mil tied to a guy who isn't a game changer.
I started suggesting trading Price 2 years ago, when it became pretty clear Galch was not going to be our top centerman. Some were bringing up Subban as tradebait for center, but I was arguing how goaltending, while still important, isn't on par with the need of a good #1 PMD.
So if we have to choose between Price or Subban to get us a top center, byebye Price.

Alas that seems like many moons ago.
As of right now, there is no question in my mind the right thing to do is trade Price, patches and weber.
This team is not close to seriously contend. Even if we do get Tavares, the entire make up of the team is still mediocre at best.
Patches is a perimeter player and those guys in POs don't do very well. Plus, I have zero interest in giving him any kind of raise. Still some decent talent with Galch..Drouin..but I really don't see how we compare to the Leafs, Bolts, Bruins, Pens, Caps..
Our prospects are very average.
On defense is where the puking starts. One seriously abysmal group of defenseman gathered up. Completely pathetic. Weber is the only solid guy but even him, in today's NHL and given his age, I don't think he would crack the top 15-20 guys you want to build around. After him...just sad.

There is just too much to do, we would be way better off just pulling the plug.

But before any of that happens, this bozo GM needs to gtfo.
 

Habs100

Registered User
Nov 6, 2013
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Serious question. If we don't get Tavares or some fantasy result we're looking at another year without a top C with Price and Weber getting older into their long term contracts. Eventually, if it continues we either A) Go nowhere and then Price is untradeable resulting in extra years of misery B) Only find someone years down the road when Weber/Price are out of their prime.

I realize guys like Lundqvist and Rinne are good late into their careers but it's a big cap for Price, Weber and who knows if we keep pacioretty.

Seems like mediocrity with a high cap hit...

A bit part of me thinks if we don't get Tavares or some equivalent to tear it down. Sort of like Toronto did by trading Kessel. We need to be good enough to get good picks and Price and company won't allow it. If they do...we're even more screwed because we have 10.5 mil tied to a guy who isn't a game changer.

If you're definition of success is getting into the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round because you have no offense, i.e. you have the same definition of success as Marc Bergevin (he literally said last year was a good year), then yes, we can have success with Price and Weber. Price may suck any given year, or he may play like the MVP of the league. When he plays like the MVP we have a chance to make the playoffs. Weber only helps.

And that's why Bergevin wants to keep them both: they give us a chance to make the playoffs, even if we zero, zilch, nada chance of contending for a cup.

If your definition, like mine is of contending, we absolutely have to trade them to try to get the assets to improve in other areas and build a contender for the future. We won't be contending any time soon. They'll have lost their trade value and effectiveness by the time we're ready to contend.
 

Gaylord Q Tinkledink

Registered User
Apr 29, 2018
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Number 1 LD doesn't mean OEL or anything like that. Just means a good LHD. Rather better than what we have/Mete takes another sizeable step forward, then would he a number 2 LD..

We have Gallagher and not much else for the RW. Aside from Weber, we don't have a legitimate RHS threat.

Someone suggested Poehling as the number 2 centre. Very well could Be, but that's likely 2 years away, or more.

Habs could use to find players with size who can retrieve pucks, but useful in other areas.

If and it's a big if, Montreal can sign Tavares that would be a monumental step forward.

My initial dream was sign Tavares, have a deal around Pacioretty and Bjugstad.

Tavares- 3rd overall
Drouin - Bjugstad.

Though it's hard to really know how things will play out. I think a lot of people have Pacs going out to help their agenda (whether we should rebuild, or retool)
 

sandviper

No Ragrets
Jan 26, 2016
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Toronto
What cup winning team has all that?

We need a #1C and a #1LD, that's it.

Pacioretty - Tavares - Gallagher
Drouin - Galchenyuk - Lehkonen
Byron - Danault - Scherbak/Hudon
Shaw - De La Rose - Scherbak/Hudon

#1LD - Weber
Mete - Petry
Alzner - Juulsen/UFA

Price

Well, I don’t think you are wrong but it’s more than just a #1c and #1LHD. We need elite 1C and LHD. I get first pairing defencemen and #1 centers are there because they are the best at it on your team, but if we had elite level players, we could live with Drouin as our #2C for example. I love Markov, and he was a #1LHD on our team, but he wasn’t elite any longer.

There is also the matter of getting those players. Your proposed lineup I think could be a playoff team, maybe good for 100 points if that #1LHD was somebody really good. We aren’t cup contenders though unless somebody else other than Mete isn’t our #2LHD. I don’t think he is ready and should be on the 3rd pair. The problem I see is that lineup is very young and we’d have to count on the kids over performing at this stage of their development.

Anyhow, to answer the OP of this thread, assuming Price can play at least .920 hockey and Weber comes back 100% that will help. I am also of the opinion if we choose a heavy retool route, having veteran players speed things up. Bruins are a good example.
 

Deluded Puck

Registered User
Jun 17, 2013
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London, UK
Well, I don’t think you are wrong but it’s more than just a #1c and #1LHD. We need elite 1C and LHD. I get first pairing defencemen and #1 centers are there because they are the best at it on your team, but if we had elite level players, we could live with Drouin as our #2C for example. I love Markov, and he was a #1LHD on our team, but he wasn’t elite any longer.

There is also the matter of getting those players. Your proposed lineup I think could be a playoff team, maybe good for 100 points if that #1LHD was somebody really good. We aren’t cup contenders though unless somebody else other than Mete isn’t our #2LHD. I don’t think he is ready and should be on the 3rd pair. The problem I see is that lineup is very young and we’d have to count on the kids over performing at this stage of their development.

Anyhow, to answer the OP of this thread, assuming Price can play at least .920 hockey and Weber comes back 100% that will help. I am also of the opinion if we choose a heavy retool route, having veteran players speed things up. Bruins are a good example.

Bruins also benefitted Marchand moving up levels

Is there anyone who can do that for us?
 

sandviper

No Ragrets
Jan 26, 2016
13,365
24,193
Toronto
Bruins also benefitted Marchand moving up levels

Is there anyone who can do that for us?

I think Gallagher to an extent. As much as I hate that sh*thead Marchand, he is a better player than Gallagher at this time, but Gally is our closest comparable. I don’t think the 30 goals was a fluke though I do think this isn’t something we’ll see for the next 5 years.

That said, the main difference between the Bruins’ veteran core and ours is their core has won a cup.
 

Adam Michaels

Registered User
Jun 12, 2016
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Montreal
I think they can be successful with both of them. Price may have had a bad year, but he's not the team's problem. And neither is Weber.

There are other areas in the line-up that need to be addressed if the Habs are to have success. Areas that hurt the team because they have the wrong player filling that spot or the one they have should be lower in the line-up.
 
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