Wilkes-Barre/Scranton update:

[Barclay Donaldson]

nope, here's why:

where has it been stated that St. Louis wants to have an affiliate close to them, much less own or operate one, Kansas City has spurned all efforts to get a franchise close, no matter what was presented to them, that includes the Mavs..... that's why the Blues sold to Vancouver, and why they acquired the affiliation from Colorado....ie SA.....

WHT is the topic here is those you cite, weren't in season.... the lease was active in 2015 in Portland.....so how can that be used an an example where a lease is expiring and the League decrees a deadline as the AHL does with WB/S, SINCE NO franchise can operate either without a lease or affiliation such as Manchester just because the E allows a franchise to be independent, the AHL cannot....

NJ let Utica go in 1992 when the decision was made to go to Albany from RPI

First, just going off of logic, St. Louis has interest in having an AHL affiliate close to home because they tried to put it in KC... You would have to have interest in putting it close to home if you tried putting it there. Just going off logic, Hutch. If that’s not enough, they also tried Indianapolis also: Blues add AHL affiliate in San Antonio — for next year

The rest of your response is gibberish and then bringing up something that happened more than 25 years ago that wasn’t even relevant. We were talking about recent AHL hasty relocations, like one potentially facing WBS.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

First, just going off of logic, St. Louis has interest in having an AHL affiliate close to home because they tried to put it in KC... You would have to have interest in putting it close to home if you tried putting it there. Just going off logic, Hutch. If that’s not enough, they also tried Indianapolis also: Blues add AHL affiliate in San Antonio — for next year

The rest of your response is gibberish and then bringing up something that happened more than 25 years ago that wasn’t even relevant. We were talking about recent AHL hasty relocations, like one potentially facing WBS.

St. Louis would not mind a agreement with a local owner for a ahl team near them they just do not want to own it themselves.they never wanted to own the icecats or rivermen boe was forced to sell and Sars retired

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

St. Louis would not mind a agreement with a local owner for a ahl team near them they just do not want to own it themselves.

that's been done, Centrum......Peoria and that whole sidebar by the Journal Star acquiring the Ice Cats back in the day..... and why the city of Worcester is now part of the contracts for the Sharks, and the Railers

 

[Centrum Hockey]

that's been done, Centrum......

St Louis never wanted to own the team in Peoria or Worcester Let's Go Blues • View topic - Rivermen Sale Imminent?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

St. Louis would not mind a agreement with a local owner for a ahl team near them they just do not want to own it themselves.they never wanted to own the icecats or rivermen boe was forced to sell and Sars ran out of money

Boe wasn't forced to sell, either.....the AHL bylaw prohibits multiple ownership, local or not, IN MULTIPLE franchises, that's why Bridgeport defaulted to the Islanders when that transaction occurred

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

St Louis never wanted to own the team in Peoria or Worcester Let's Go Blues • View topic - Rivermen Sale Imminent?

you don't get it Centrum, the Ice Cats were caught in the era of independents, the Blues then signed on 2 months into that inaugural campaign after the flip from being the Indians in Springfield, the league bylaw that required an affiliation before approval.....

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

St. Louis would not mind a agreement with a local owner for a ahl team near them they just do not want to own it themselves.they never wanted to own the icecats or rivermen boe was forced to sell and Sars retired

That's going to be difficult if they don't want to own it. Colorado Eagles had to be coerced and convinced for a long time to pay the ECHL exit fee, AHL entry fee, and increased operations costs. That's not a smart business move for teams who are doing alright in the status quo, I'm not surprised Indy and KC told St. Louis to screw off. And San Antonio surely isn't going to uproot themselves, they're owned by the same ownership group as the Spurs and AT&T Arena and every news article says they enjoy what appears to be a mutual beneficial relationship.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

That's going to be difficult if they don't want to own it. Colorado Eagles had to be coerced and convinced for a long time to pay the ECHL exit fee, AHL entry fee, and increased operations costs. That's not a smart business move for teams who are doing alright in the status quo, I'm not surprised Indy and KC told St. Louis to screw off. And San Antonio surely isn't going to uproot themselves, they're owned by the same ownership group as the Spurs and AT&T Arena and every news article says they enjoy what appears to be a mutual beneficial relationship.

Its not easy for a fan base to Adjust if they ever go back to the echl either Look at Norfolk Hampton Roads Admirals yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
Norfolk Admirals [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Its not easy for a fan base to Adjust if they ever go back to the echl either Look at Norfolk Roaming The Rinks Google Maps: Report Inappropriate Image

not buying that lame excuse, Centrum, What that tells me is Worcester hasn't adjusted to the ECHL ACCORDING TO what parameters, if an NHL team outright owned the Railers as they did the previous times, and not local ownership as is the present case.....wouldn't the same result occur..... Norfolk was successful, why, because Richmond balances that, where is that rivalry since.... even the original owners of AHL Norfolk were questionable back then,

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Its not easy for a fan base to Adjust if they ever go back to the echl either Look at Norfolk Hampton Roads Admirals yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
Norfolk Admirals [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

Many teams don't do well with changes. Ontario Reign, Bakersfield, Cleveland, and Chicago are some of the few examples I can think of in terms of sustained success in the box office despite a big affiliate/league change. But, I think it's clear that any team can succeed anywhere given the right circumstance. It takes marketing commitment, community pride, PR presence, and on-ice success, but it's more than possible. If Utica can have that unheard of sellout streak, you can make hockey work anywhere.

 

[RowdyFan42]

I can't particularly think of any. Starting with the wave of relocations and affiliation changes in summer 2015 to the present, nearly each AHL affiliate has been placed in a solid, well-planned, and long-term market. None have been the last second "what are we gonna do" relocation that WBS would face should they choose to leave Luzerne County. Portland Pirates moving to Springfield was short notice and done quickly, but it wasn't rushed and Florida likes the arrangement for the long-term. St. John's was used as a placeholder while accommodations were made future Laval Rocket and Manitoba Moose. San Antonio has an agreement for several more years while St. Louis continues to look for options closer to home. All of the West Division teams are in their permanent homes except for *maybe* San José. There's a few teams have uncertain futures like Bridgeport and Hartford, but there's been nothing within recent memory that's been as good of an example as Utica.

The only other "recent" example I can think of is when the Philly Phantoms moved to Glens Falls due to the closure and eventual demolition of the Spectrum. And that was before the Great Western Migration began.

To try and get this somewhat back on topic, the possibility of Albany serving as a placeholder for the Penguins was brought up. While it's true that the TU Center isn't quite as desperate for a hockey tenant as they used to be -- otherwise they would've pulled some strings to get an ECHL franchise by now -- and it's likely that management is holding out hope for the Rangers, I don't think they'd object to having the Penguins move in, even if it's just short-term. As for the fans, I think they'd be a lot more accepting of the Penguins than they were of the Devils, though you will have some fools who will refuse to support anything other than the Rangers.

However, I don't see Albany happening at all. This WBS kerfuffle strikes me as simply the public side of a negotiation that will end up working itself out in the end with the Penguins staying put.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

The only other "recent" example I can think of is when the Philly Phantoms moved to Glens Falls due to the closure and eventual demolition of the Spectrum. And that was before the Great Western Migration began.

To try and get this somewhat back on topic, the possibility of Albany serving as a placeholder for the Penguins was brought up. While it's true that the TU Center isn't quite as desperate for a hockey tenant as they used to be -- otherwise they would've pulled some strings to get an ECHL franchise by now -- and it's likely that management is holding out hope for the Rangers, I don't think they'd object to having the Penguins move in, even if it's just short-term. As for the fans, I think they'd be a lot more accepting of the Penguins than they were of the Devils, though you will have some fools who will refuse to support anything other than the Rangers.

However, I don't see Albany happening at all. This WBS kerfuffle strikes me as simply the public side of a negotiation that will end up working itself out in the end with the Penguins staying put.

I did forget about Phantoms to Glenn Falls. I would count that though as more of a placeholder location like St. John's was rather than a short term relocation, the plans for the new arena in Allentown was pushed through something like 2 or less years after they left for the Adirondacks. It was announced in early 2011 although it didn't get finished until 2014.

I agree that Albany wouldn't agree to it, I doubt that it would be a money making proposition for them. They're in the enviable position of having a positive cash flow and aren't desperate for tenants. I'm surprised how after 20 years and a good relationship on paper that WBS has let it get to this point. They must announce the results at the AHL BOG meeting next week, not even intentions, they need to have their ducks in a row by that point.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I did forget about Phantoms to Glenn Falls. I would count that though as more of a placeholder location like St. John's was rather than a short term relocation, the plans for the new arena in Allentown was pushed through something like 2 or less years after they left for the Adirondacks. It was announced in early 2011 although it didn't get finished until 2014.

I agree that Albany wouldn't agree to it, I doubt that it would be a money making proposition for them. They're in the enviable position of having a positive cash flow and aren't desperate for tenants. I'm surprised how after 20 years and a good relationship on paper that WBS has let it get to this point. They must announce the results at the AHL BOG meeting next week, not even intentions, they need to have their ducks in a row by that point.

REMINDS ME OF 2013, IS WHAT IT does, BD

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

REMINDS ME OF 2013, IS WHAT IT does, BD

Since I wrote a decent bit, I'm not sure what your pointing out with that random statement. Only affiliate changes during that time period was Utica and Chicago had their NHL affiliates swapped and so did Syracuse and Norfolk. Don't remember too much of other stuff happening in 2013. I graduated high school, Nelson Mandela died, Rob Ford admitted to smoking crack, Lac Mégantic disaster. Gotta be more specific, Hutch, and in addition, I'm begging you to use proper grammar. Don't leave one word out not capitalized, just use italics when you're trying to prove a point. We already know you're conveying all your words in your loud voice.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Since I wrote a decent bit, I'm not sure what your pointing out with that random statement. Only affiliate changes during that time period was Utica and Chicago had their NHL affiliates swapped and so did Syracuse and Norfolk. Don't remember too much of other stuff happening in 2013. I graduated high school, Nelson Mandela died, Rob Ford admitted to smoking crack, Lac Mégantic disaster. Gotta be more specific, Hutch, and in addition, I'm begging you to use proper grammar. Don't leave one word out not capitalized, just use italics when you're trying to prove a point. We already know you're conveying all your words in your loud voice.

BD:

I'LL give you the same advice, what is the correlating issue in LUZERNE County that also transpired in 2013, which is well documented had Cross not been renovated admist the negotiations..... no lease team doesn't play no affiliation at AHL Level team doesn't exist, how hard is that to understand

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

BD:

I'LL give you the same advice, what is the correlating issue in LUZERNE County that also transpired in 2013, which is well documented had Cross not been renovated admist the negotiations..... no lease team doesn't play no affiliation at AHL Level team doesn't exist, how hard is that to understand

When you write with the grammar of a fourth grader it is difficult. And yet, how many times have teams demanded shiny, new objects in order to stay but end up not going anywhere if they don’t get it? Just off the top of my head I can think of Calgary, Ottawa, Hartford Wolfpack with XL Center, Syracuse Crunch have demanded a new or upgraded arena for years, same with Rochester Americans, etc. It’s a common negation ploy that often doesn’t work. WBS has nowhere to go, they don’t have the upper hand.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

When you write with the grammar of a fourth grader it is difficult. And yet, how many times have teams demanded shiny, new objects in order to stay but end up not going anywhere if they don’t get it? Just off the top of my head I can think of Calgary, Ottawa, Hartford Wolfpack with XL Center, Syracuse Crunch have demanded a new or upgraded arena for years, same with Rochester Americans, etc. It’s a common negation ploy that often doesn’t work. WBS has nowhere to go, they don’t have the upper hand.

again, HFD ISN'T THE ISSUE HERE, BD..... CARE to cite where XL or its management company ever had a lease issue which is why WB/S is in the position they're facing..... that's not on PIT, SOME AGREEMENTS don't allow the affiliate or the parent club to negotiate a lease, the point is... under AHL BYLAWS no affiliate can be independent and as Chaimovitch has indicated all franchises must indicate intent, and each case is independent of any other, it is not relevant to bring up CGY/OTT IN AN AHL forum

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

again, HFD ISN'T THE ISSUE HERE, BD..... CARE to cite where XL or its management company ever had a lease issue which is why WB/S is in the position they're facing..... that's not on PIT, SOME AGREEMENTS don't allow the affiliate or the parent club to negotiate a lease, the point is... under AHL BYLAWS no affiliate can be independent and as Chaimovitch has indicated all franchises must indicate intent, and each case is independent of any other, it is not relevant to bring up CGY/OTT IN AN AHL forum

It is relevant because they’ve been demanding arena upgrades for an extended period of time. Just like WBS. Hartford and their ownership, to a certain extent, made it clear they’re demanding upgrades to XL Center. It’s all relevant.

 

[Captain Crash]

again, HFD ISN'T THE ISSUE HERE, BD..... CARE to cite where XL or its management company ever had a lease issue which is why WB/S is in the position they're facing..... that's not on PIT, SOME AGREEMENTS don't allow the affiliate or the parent club to negotiate a lease, the point is... under AHL BYLAWS no affiliate can be independent and as Chaimovitch has indicated all franchises must indicate intent, and each case is independent of any other, it is not relevant to bring up CGY/OTT IN AN AHL forum

Speaking of relevant things to bring up, I'm really struggling to find the relevance in most of your posts in this thread. You keep blasting people for using examples from other teams, but then keep using examples from other teams.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

It is relevant because they’ve been demanding arena upgrades for an extended period of time. Just like WBS. Hartford and their ownership, to a certain extent, made it clear they’re demanding upgrades to XL Center. It’s all relevant.

nope, here's why HFD isn't relevant:

CTDRA makes the call in HFD, Spectra is simply a operator, if it was, why doesn't MSG own XL, Politics is why the Whalers bolted for CAR..... CT RESIDENTS VOTED for 2 Governors who were deemed corrupt, BD

There have be no calls in WB/Scranton to upgrade Casey Plaza, so what does that have to do with a lease extension, BD, DO YOU KNOW WHAT the lease agreement states, and even the local paper there doesn't have that info....

do you know who actually footed the arena upgrade in Springfield? the entire commonwealth of Massachusetts, because Springfield was financially insolvent

 

[Captain Crash]

There have be no calls in WB/Scranton to upgrade Casey Plaza, so what does that have to do with a lease extension, BD, DO YOU KNOW WHAT the lease agreement states, and even the local paper there doesn't have that info....

Via the Times Leader: Decision on where WBS Penguins will play next season must come by Monday | Times Leader

There has also been reports that the Penguins have asked for significant improvements to the arena facilities.

The arena has also seen multiple upgrades the past few years:

• Mohegan Sun Arena Receives $2.8M in Upgrades - Arena Digest
• Board approves funds for WiFi upgrade at Mohegan Sun Arena | Times Leader
  
• Upgrades Planned for Mohegan Sun Arena at Casey Place - Arena Digest

 

[axecrew]

nope, here's why HFD isn't relevant:

CTDRA makes the call in HFD, Spectra is simply a operator, if it was, why doesn't MSG own XL, Politics is why the Whalers bolted for CAR..... CT RESIDENTS VOTED for 2 Governors who were deemed corrupt, BD

There have be no calls in WB/Scranton to upgrade Casey Plaza, so what does that have to do with a lease extension, BD, DO YOU KNOW WHAT the lease agreement states, and even the local paper there doesn't have that info....

do you know who actually footed the arena upgrade in Springfield? the entire commonwealth of Massachusetts, because Springfield was financially insolvent

The absolute definition of Irony... says no one knows whats in the extension negotiations not even the local paper,questions if other poster knows what's in the lease agreement/extension...then tells everyone whats not in there

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

The absolute definition of Irony... says no one knows whats in the extension negotiations not even the local paper,questions if other poster knows what's in the lease agreement/extension...then tells everyone whats not in there

because said poster brings up franchises not relevant..... since when did Calgary or Ottawa become AHL Markets, and clearly doesn't get Hartford and why XL hasn't been upgraded, which has nothing to do with the point of the thread which is why the AHL IS FORCING THE DECISION ON PIT/LUZERNE TO resolve the issue, and a framework agreement

 

[axecrew]

because said poster brings up franchises not relevant..... since when did Calgary or Ottawa become AHL Markets, and clearly doesn't get Hartford and why XL hasn't been upgraded, which has nothing to do with the point of the thread which is why the AHL IS FORCING THE DECISION ON PIT/LUZERNE TO resolve the issue, and a framework agreement

They are "forcing" nothing...every year at this time the BOG meets in Chicago to discuss the next season...and every year the member teams must state their intentions as to whether or not they are playing this year and where. There is no covert operation here...just standard every year stuff. I would think that someone who purports to be an expert on the AHL by laws would know all of this and avoid the trap of speaking out of turn. Like you said ...no one knows what's going on behind the scenes...Not Even You

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

They are "forcing" nothing...every year at this time the BOG meets in Chicago to discuss the next season...and every year the member teams must state their intentions as to whether or not they are playing this year and where. There is no covert operation here...just standard every year stuff. I would think that someone who purports to be an expert on the AHL by laws would know all of this and avoid the trap of speaking out of turn. Like you said ...no one knows what's going on behind the scenes...Not Even You

AXE:

THEN WHY Has it gotten to the point where the AHL Is requiring a decision, then.... if it's a normal year as you claim it is this thread never gets posted