Hey, I was 5... and f*** himYou messed with powers beyond your comprehension.
Because when I asked him for an autograph after a Sabres practice at Sabreland when I was a wee 5 year old, he looked at me like I was covered in boogers and ****, and merely walked past me with a hateful darkness in his eyes like a monster. I went home that night and prayed to the hockey gods in Buffalo that he never achieve any great success, and certainly never obtain a seat in the HOF.
For this, the gods demanded, and I agreed that the city of Buffalo may come close, but shall never win a championship throughout its existence.
Sorry Buffalo, but I remain satisfied.
He has NO awards or hardware of any kind*. Not even a single All-Star selection. He was an elite-ish player for maybe 4 seasons.He absolutely should be in.
Usually the arguments against him are that he doesn't have a ton of awards and no cup. I don't want to see the word compiler here.
What was so special about him? He was never among the 4 or 5 best players at any point. He didn't have a particularly special peak, during his best stretch of hockey (90-96) he was outside the top 10 in PPG. Only a 5th and 7th place finish in scoring, no top 5's in goals or assists.He should be in at this point IMO. He clearly was a very special player in the league (even when Dale Hunter didn't hit him while he was celebrating a goal).
The soft part but also he peaked in arguably the deepest era in the nhl for top talent (for example never got a team canada spot and only played in 4 All stars game and never cracked top 5 in center one season).
Only 2 top 10 in points without bringing much else, he seem a really good step below say a Marian Hossa
Besides the longevity you could say that about my all time childhood hero Ron Francis as well and nobody would be stupid enough to say he doesn't belong in the Hall.What was so special about him? He was never among the 4 or 5 best players at any point. He didn't have a particularly special peak, during his best stretch of hockey (90-96) he was outside the top 10 in PPG. Only a 5th and 7th place finish in scoring, no top 5's in goals or assists.
To compare that to someone from the last 7 years of hockey, he'd compare closely to a guy like Tyler Seguin (who actually has a few more top 10 finishes). Seguin has a lot of work to do to be considered a Hall of Fame player. Turgeon didn't age spectacularily, he was done as a top line player shortly after the age of 30, and added just 4 more season of decent hockey after that (as a 40-point player in the DPE).
Well, as you mentioned, he has the longevity factor over Turgeon, and he was also a premier defensive player for most of his career, something Turgeon couldn't even begin to claim in the slightest. He also had more top 10 scoring finishes and lead the league in assists multiple times. He also factored heavily in 2 Stanley Cup wins.Besides the longevity you could say that about my all time childhood hero Ron Francis as well and nobody would be stupid enough to say he doesn't belong in the Hall.
If he ever comes back to STL for an autograph signing I am going to print out a screenshot of your post and make him sign it.Because when I asked him for an autograph after a Sabres practice at Sabreland when I was a wee 5 year old, he looked at me like I was covered in boogers and ****, and merely walked past me with a hateful darkness in his eyes like a monster. I went home that night and prayed to the hockey gods in Buffalo that he never achieve any great success, and certainly never obtain a seat in the HOF.
For this, the gods demanded, and I agreed, that the city of Buffalo may come close, but shall never win a championship throughout its existence.
Sorry Buffalo, but I remain satisfied.
If he ever comes back to STL for an autograph signing I am going to print out a screenshot of your post and make him sign it.
Well, as you mentioned, he has the longevity factor over Turgeon, and he was also a premier defensive player for most of his career, something Turgeon couldn't even begin to claim in the slightest. He also had more top 10 scoring finishes and lead the league in assists multiple times. He also factored heavily in 2 Stanley Cup wins.
What are you talking about? Sundin was a stand out player and was scary consistent through his entire career. Especially in the DPE.Doesn't mean they deserved to get in. Both those guys basically got in for political reasons. Modano for being all-timer American point leader, and Sundin for being a Toronto fan favourite. If Modano was Slovakian and Sundin played for Anaheim, would be different.
Well, as you mentioned, he has the longevity factor over Turgeon, and he was also a premier defensive player for most of his career, something Turgeon couldn't even begin to claim in the slightest. He also had more top 10 scoring finishes and lead the league in assists multiple times. He also factored heavily in 2 Stanley Cup wins.
What are you talking about? Sundin was a stand out player and was scary consistent through his entire career. Especially in the DPE.
I’m sure that helped, but Sundin was still way more consistent. He might not have had the highs that Turgeon had, but overall he was an overall PPG player playing a majority of his prime in a lower scoring era, being a two time second team AS center. Turgeon never distinguished himself as a player or center. Sundin maintained a higher level of player for a lot longer. After ‘93, he was inconsistent and dealing with injuries from time to time.The only things distinguishing Sundin from Turgeon are playing for Toronto and international play. Sundin was actually less consistent than Turgeon. International play is a real point though.
I would respond with 2 things:During Francis' best offensive season when he lead the league in assists and finished with 119 points, he was a distant 3rd on his own team in scoring behind Lemieux's 161 points and Jagr's 149
Turgeon's best season he finished with 132 points - which lead his team by 45!
Kinda makes you wonder what Turgeon could've accomplished had he been lucky enough to play alongside the 2 greatest offensive players from the last 25 years
The only things distinguishing Sundin from Turgeon are playing for Toronto and international play. Sundin was actually less consistent than Turgeon. International play is a real point though.
I would respond with 2 things:
1) It takes more than one season to make a HoF career.
2) We can't really induct players based on "could have" and "would have"'s
That's not overly impressive. He's only 9th in scoring over the span of his career. For PPG he's all the way down at 20th.1) Take away his best season and he still has 1195 points in 1211 games
2) I never said we should be. The point was to show that Turgeon was a better offensive player than Francis, not give him credit for something he didn't do