Why is hockey the only sport not to produce a GOAT-calibre player in the last decade or so?

[billingtons ghost]

Faking migraines? Jesus christ Jordan fans are on another level.

I think Jordan is probably still the GOAT but if you think the gap is massive or LeBron isn’t at least clearly #2 then you don’t know basketball.

It's tough, because there's been about a twenty year gap where there's been no actual basketball played in the NBA. Until the past five years or so, the game has pretty much descended into 'drive to the net and get the foul called.'.

LeBron could be better than mj, but because of the style of game, we will never really know. Mj is partially culpable for that change of style too.

I'm a magic/bird fan, because those mid 80s teams were the best I've seen. But I've still got to go mj.

Bonds was a freak for a couple of years but is no way goat. Trout needs to stay healthy.

Messi is prob goat.
Tough to argue Brady's #s, but he's a belichek product.

I think mcdavid has a shot, but Gretzky is a long way off.

 

[Mbraunm]

Gretzky is a type of talent that comes around once in a century. Having watched him, it is no surprise to me that no one of his calibre has yet to be seen.

 

[lebdafor norris]

I get what you are saying about the MLB, but what Trout is doing and has done for the last 7 years is incredible. He hits for average & power and has been the league leader in OBP for the past 4 years, plus the stellar fielding. All on a crappy team, not being able to see him in the playoffs is a SHAME (for him and MLB).

Trout AL MVP voting:
2012- 2nd
2013- 2nd
2014- 1st
2015- 2nd
2016- 1st
2017- 4th (missed 50 games)
2018- 2nd

That's a joke lol. He's unbelievable.

Not to mention, a lot of baseball fans believe Trout should have won the award in 2012 and 13 as well, he completely blew past Miggy in WAR during those 2 years, but he was denied of the award because he played for a pretty crappy team at the time.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Not to mention, a lot of baseball fans believe Trout should have won the award in 2012 and 13 as well, he completely blew past Miggy in WAR during those 2 years, but he was denied of the award because he played for a pretty crappy team at the time.

2012 Cabrera won the Triple Crown. He also led the league in slugging and OPS and was 2nd in hits, while still being good defensively.

2013 Cabrera led the league in batting average, OBP, slugging, OPS, OPS+, 2nd in hits, HR, RBI (none of them being 2nd to Trout)

WAR is a valuable stat, but it is not the end all be all and does not override getting beat in every other statistical category

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Lol the word is GOAT not OFTGOAT. You are just wrong. It’s okay to admit sometimes.

The GOAT means greatest of all time. The greatest of all time is Gretzky. You don’t get to add guys into that category just because you are a fan boy.

It’s okay to say someone if one of the best ever. But that’s not what GOAT means. And since the topic is speaking towards GOAT’s, Ovechkin simply isn’t nor will he ever be a GOAT.

Shannon Sharpe literally just used the phrase "One of the GOATs" on live TV. Keep telling yourself that people can't refer to another player as one of the greatest of all time bud.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Faking migraines? Jesus christ Jordan fans are on another level.

I think Jordan is probably still the GOAT but if you think the gap is massive or LeBron isn’t at least clearly #2 then you don’t know basketball.

Just one example and you can look at others online if you want more proof. Rodman used to say they knew they could get Pippen to crumble every time and that's how they won.

That conversation is over between MJ and Lebron, he's playing for second. 2011 was really the end all of the conversation where Lebron was outplayed and outscored by Jason Terry, guarded in the post by JJ Barrea and averaged 2.4 points in the 4th quarters of an entire NBA Finals. He's also suffered the greatest margin of loss in an NBA Finals against the Spurs. He crumbled in his prime against an opponent they should have dismantled easily. Lebron has factually had more help to win much less and to do less individually as a basketball player. Lebron has taken more games and seasons to surpass MJ in the things he has, many of which he still hasn't.

And ya, Kobe is at best the 8th best player of all time and has no claim to the greatest of all time conversation. His attempt to salvage his career in his final season from a wholly me first player to some diplomatic superstar and solid teammate was an embarrassing joke.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Ovi can wind up 1st all time in goals and still have essentially zero argument for breaking into the top 4 of all time, which is what the OP means by hockey has not produced a goat calibre player in the last decade or so.

This statement isn't true. What ovi is doing in today's game already has him solidly in the top4. Good chance he goes down in history as the greatest nhl goal scorer ever, but will somehow remain behind Crosby in all-time rankings.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

People don't know how good Rodman was. One of best players in NBA ever to this day. Pippen was also very good just not Jordan and Rodman level.

When Rodman joined the Bulls anyone could have had him, Phil Jackson saved his career and allowed him a second chance to be the player and person he wanted to be. I think Dennis is an all time great, but he was never an all star on the Bulls and he would go entire games without contributing anything offensively.

I'm one of the biggest Worm fans in the world btw and basketball would be much better if we had half the athletes give as much as he did on the court every night. Guy was awesome.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Are you for real? Federer is the goat of tennis. No other player alive is close

Again, one of the biggest Federer fans there are and I used to think this but Nadal is right there and has a strong claim at being the better player. Head to head he still owns Federer and he's now only 1 major behind him for his career I believe? If Nadal ties Federer and maybe wins 2, he'd clearly be the greatest Tennis player ever.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

This statement isn't true. What ovi is doing in today's game already has him solidly in the top4. Good change he goes down in history as the greatest nhl goal scorer ever, but will somehow remain behind Crosby in all-time rankings.

I don't have him that high but anyone that doesn't have him and Crosby FIRMLY in the top 10 all time at this point is just naive and letting nostalgia cloud their judgement. Again, it's just a matter of where they end up.

Comparing Gretzky just based on insane point totals to today's players is surface level analysis, no player was surrounded with the talent he was or the level of enforcers necessary to keep him healthy as long as he able to be. Of course I think he's the greatest player of all time and I was born in the same hometown he was so I'm clearly a massive fan, but I really don't think it's so far and away as many think simply due to how much the NHL has changed scoring wise.

 

[Lebowski]

This statement isn't true. What ovi is doing in today's game already has him solidly in the top4. Good change he goes down in history as the greatest nhl goal scorer ever, but will somehow remain behind Crosby in all-time rankings.

Ovechkin will never crack the top 4.

A lot of people already acknowledge him as the best goalscorer of all time, and a lot of those same people would still have him behind Crosby on all time rankings. That's really not all that surprising. After 6 rockets out of the last 7 years, Ovechkin still wasn't considered the best player in the league in any of those years. As a matter of fact, it has been a decade since Ovechkin was last considered the best player in the league. Since the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, which more or less represents the end of Ovechkin's peak, he has generally been regarded as a top 10 player in the league as opposed to the best player in the league, even though everyone still sees him as the best goalscorer around.

So I don't know why you'd look back at his goal totals and wonder why he's not regarded more highly when it's fairly obvious why he'd be ranked below Crosby on an all-time scale. A guy like Brett Hull is one of the best goal scorer of all-time and that doesn't make him a shoe-in for the top 5 either.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Ovechkin will never crack the top 4.

A lot of people already acknowledge him as the best goalscorer of all time, and a lot of those same people would still have him behind Crosby on all time rankings. That's really not all that surprising. After 6 rockets out of the last 7 years, Ovechkin still wasn't considered the best player in the league in any of those years. As a matter of fact, it has been a decade since Ovechkin was last considered the best player in the league. Since the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, which more or less represents the end of Ovechkin's peak, he has generally been regarded as a top 10 player in the league as opposed to the best player in the league, even though everyone still sees him as the best goalscorer around.

So I don't know why you'd look back at his goal totals and wonder why he's not regarded more highly when it's fairly obvious why he'd be ranked below Crosby on an all-time scale. A guy like Brett Hull is one of the best goal scorer of all-time and that doesn't make him a shoe-in for the top 5 either.

Who was talking about ovi being in the big 4? We were clearly talking about top 4 in goalscoring. Crosby has been in the running for best player season after season, but I don't believe he's been the best player in the game for nearly as long or is as often that he gets credit.

Ovi's goalscoring dominance over sid certainly narrows any perceived gap IMO. Ovi has more individual hardware as well. I don't believe there's much separation between the 2 at all. In fact, I wouldn't get overly upset if some rank ovi ahead of Crosby, I don't yet, but its pretty damn close.

 

[Individual 1]

This statement isn't true. What ovi is doing in today's game already has him solidly in the top4. Good chance he goes down in history as the greatest nhl goal scorer ever, but will somehow remain behind Crosby in all-time rankings.

If Ovi winds up first all time in goals he easily becomes the greatest goal scorer ever. There is no question that he is already top 4 in goal scoring. He still has no chance of becoming a top 4 player of all time, which is what this thread was originally about.

 

[daver]

Who was talking about ovi being in the big 4? We were clearly talking about top 4 in goalscoring. Crosby has been in the running for best player season after season, but I don't believe he's been the best player in the game for nearly as long or is as often that he gets credit.

Ovi's goalscoring dominance over sid certainly narrows any perceived gap IMO. Ovi has more individual hardware as well. I don't believe there's much separation between the 2 at all. In fact, I wouldn't get overly upset if some rank ovi ahead of Crosby, I don't yet, but its pretty damn close.

Why? Crosby is the clearly superior all around offensive force who clearly elevates the play of his linemates, many of whom are 3rd and 4th liners, while playing a clearly more effective and valuable 2-way game.

Their point totals speak for themselves.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Shannon Sharpe literally just used the phrase "One of the GOATs" on live TV. Keep telling yourself that people can't refer to another player as one of the greatest of all time bud.

There’s your first problem. Using Shannon Sharpe as a point of reference.

 

[lebdafor norris]

2012 Cabrera won the Triple Crown. He also led the league in slugging and OPS and was 2nd in hits, while still being good defensively.

2013 Cabrera led the league in batting average, OBP, slugging, OPS, OPS+, 2nd in hits, HR, RBI (none of them being 2nd to Trout)

WAR is a valuable stat, but it is not the end all be all and does not override getting beat in every other statistical category

Trout had a higher OBP than Miggy in 2012 , played elite defence in one of the toughest defensive position to play while Miggy played elite D in the easiest position to play and Trout's base running was elite that year. Fangraphs BsR states that Trout created 14.3 runs compare to the league average just based on his running, while Miggy cost his teams 7.5 runs (once again compare to league avg) based on his base running which was always a weakness in his game. Same Logic applies for 2013.

True, if you just look at the traditional stats such as OPS, AVG and home runs you could make a good case of Miggy winning the MVP but that's ignoring the other half of the game which is base running (which is way more than stealing bases BTW) and Defence,which Trout completely destroyed Miggy on.

 

[madmike77]

The NBA and NFL at least took major steps to increase scoring which has naturally boosted the stats. The NFL more resembles the old Arena League than the old NFL. It’s not really the same game any more.

The NBA also took steps to boost scoring over the last couple of decades.

The NHL has taken some steps, but scoring is still way down overall compared to the 70s, 80s and 90s because of system hockey and equipment.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Valentino Rossi GOAT

Vale was the best of his generation but has been absolutely thumped by Marquez ever since Marc stepped up to the big class. Marc is going to break all the records and unless he gets tired of winning soon will be seen as the GOAT (if not already)

 

[nowhereman]

This statement isn't true. What ovi is doing in today's game already has him solidly in the top4. Good chance he goes down in history as the greatest nhl goal scorer ever, but will somehow remain behind Crosby in all-time rankings.

Which one of Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr or Howe is inferior to Ovechkin?

 

[Maestro84]

This statement isn't true. What ovi is doing in today's game already has him solidly in the top4. Good chance he goes down in history as the greatest nhl goal scorer ever, but will somehow remain behind Crosby in all-time rankings.

Ovechkin post 2010 is honestly quite overrated. His goal scoring is still GOAT level but the rest of his game really isn't that great. He scores 50 goals a year yet he isn't even close to scoring 100 points, and his game as a whole is a bit one-dimensional compared to other players on the top 10-15 list. His playoff resume is also meh compared to other players in the top 10-15 all time. That's kind of why this thread was made because no one in hockey post-Mario is even close to being in the GOAT discussion

 

[Invictus12]

Mcdavid could have put up insane numbers if he ended up on a really good team the last 4 years. We are talking 150-160 points. His career is pretty much derailed by the pathetic Edmonton Oilers organization.

Mcdavid is a great player but no way he puts up 150 points anywhere.

 

[Hatfield]

Someone has to reinvent the game or do something BIG to knock any of the “big four” off of hockey’s Mt. Rushmore, because they’re all there for different reasons.

Gretzky: posted mind-boggling offensive numbers, rewrote the record book; expanded the game’s popularity more than any other player.

Orr: redefined the role of the defenseman; superlative skill in all aspects of the game.

Howe: offensive dominance that set longstanding records; endurance; toughness. The prototypical hockey player.

Lemieux: absolute finesse, otherworldly at his peak. If Gretzky never existed, he’d be viewed as the undisputed offensive talent.

If Ovechkin breaks the goals record, or if Crosby gets 2000 points, that player will have solid claim to the #5 spot, but I can’t see them passing any of the big 4.

 

[Maestro84]

The NFL is the only sport that has had a GOAT (2000’s and so on) with Tom Brady.

The NBA some will say has with Bryant or James but I’d still take Michael Jordan.

MLB is a mess; PEDs along with hitters/pitchers throws that completely off the wall.

The NHL will never see another Gretzky; the game/players have changed so much since the 80’s/90’s that there’s a new way to look at a GOAT with the sport of hockey. Points aren’t the only statistic looked at in todays game.

LeBron is definitely among the GOATs though and he has a chance to one day be alongside MJ; Kobe isn't even in the discussion though, the media overrates tf outta that dude. I always considered Manning a better player than Brady although they're both GOAT candidates in their own right. PEDs haven't been that prevalent in the MLB since the mid/late 2000s, but I see where you're coming from there

Sports is so much more than just the NA big four though.

In European football (you know the football where ppl actually use their feet), Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo have dominated like no other pair ever have before, hence both are GOAT candidates (with Messi being the GOAT front-runner)

In tennis, Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, and Novak Djokovic have been one-upping each other for 15 years now with Nadal and Djokovic inching closer than ever before to Federer's records. At the end of the day, the tennis GOAT will come from one of the three above. Serena is also one of the GOAT candidates in women's tennis along with Martina and Steffi

In golf, there's Tiger Woods. Nuff said

In the Olympics, Bolt and Phelps both set a bunch of unprecedented records in their sport that will likely never be broken

They're more in other sports too but I'd take me all day to name them all

 

[dortt]

Are you serious? You'll be hard pressed to find a team sport where you would benifit less from illegal substances. There is absolutely no support for your view.

of course you'd benefit in soccer from illegal PEDs. Blood doping and EPO given how much running there is

 

[dortt]

Are you for real? Federer is the goat of tennis. No other player alive is close

not even close to accurate. Nadal and Fed are neck and neck. Possible edge to Rafa given their H2H. Djoko is #3, but has dramatically closed the gap