Why exactly do you think Malkin is an underrated as he is?

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JordanStaal#1Fan
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He’s scored a .5 GPG rate in the playoffs?

Have you read my post? He produces, sure. He isn't the reason they lose. Teams don't focus on shutting him down, they suppress the support system.

Guys that are purely goal scorer won't win you championships not matter how many Rockets they win. That's why they are not your main piece. The Caps are built entirely around Ovy, they play to maximize his strenghts and that's why they lose. Not HIS fault.
 

Turin

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Ovechkin cannot "score at will", he is continuously set up and takes 8 shots per game. That's the context I am referring to.

Caps are smart to play him like that because of his shot, however, it comes.crashing down in the playoffs. Teams will let Ovechkin have his and shutdown everyone else. They will also eliminate him off the rush making him a PP player.

A guy that scores as will has more than two go-to scoring plays.

Great goal score. Greatest of this era. Of all time? Absolutely not.

This is silly. He’s continuously set up because he gives them their best chance at scoring in the harshest scoring environment of all time. Nobody can score at will in today’s NHL and everyone can be shutdown.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

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So? Are you saying that Malkin's success is predicated entirely on Crosby? Ovechkin has had boatloads of talented linemates and always has. That's a much more tangible direct advantage than playing behind someone on a different line.

But you are of course entitled to your opinion that Ovechkin is a more impactful player than Malkin. Even if I think it's far off base.
 
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HandshakeLine

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This is silly. He’s continuously set up because he gives them their best chance at scoring in the harshest scoring environment of all time. Nobody can score at will in today’s NHL and everyone can be shutdown.

1935-1936 was pretty tough, what with the Depression and sports not actually being paid and all.

And then there was the year that they had to suspend the season because of a world wide pandemic that killed more than the Great War did.

But I know, I know. :laugh:
 

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JordanStaal#1Fan
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This is silly. He’s continuously set up because he gives them their best chance at scoring in the harshest scoring environment of all time. Nobody can score at will in today’s NHL and everyone can be shutdown.

Of course they are smart to set him up! I am not arguing that. I am saying that he doesn't create goals out of nothing like Mario or Gretzky did at least not nearly as much. He is a finisher. Nothing bad with that. Doesn't make him Geno's equal as a player though. Doesn't make him the best goal scorer of all time. Stamkos played like that for a season, scored 60 as well.
 

Gurglesons

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Have you read my post? He produces, sure. He isn't the reason they lose. Teams don't focus on shutting him down, they suppress the support system.

Uh. Go watch how we play D on that team.

Also, I agree with you argument. But like I said Ovechkin is arguably the second best goal scoring winger in the history of the game and Malkin is a top 20 center at best.

You are criticizing something based on the position he plays
 
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Uh. Go watch how we play D on that team.

Also, I agree with you argument. But like I said Ovechkin is arguably the second best goal scoring winger in the history of the game and Malkin is a top 20 center at best.

Regular season or playoffs?

In the POs, Dumoulin suppresses him of the rush (never gives him the line) and we "live with" him being able from the circle. We take the time and space away from the playmakers.

Second best goal scoring winger, if that, doesn't mean more impactful than a top-20 center. In the NA game, centers are WAY more important than wingers. That's why there are so little "HOF" LWers.
 

Gurglesons

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Regular season or playoffs?

In the POs, Dumoulin suppresses him of the rush (never gives him the line) and we "live with" him being able from the circle. We take the time and space away from the playmakers.

Second best goal scoring winger, if that, doesn't mean more impactful than a top-20 center. In the NA game, centers are WAY more important than wingers. That's why there are so little "HOF" LWers.

Yeah, so your judging him based on his position and the fact he’s played on maybe two actual teams that could win a cup.

I love Malkin, but he will always be as a secondary fiddle like Messier was until he won two cups without Gretzky. And even then..

Ovechkin if he wins a cup will be seen as a clear cut # 2 in the Crosby era that people will argue was essentially a better player than Crosby because of his trophy case.
 

billybudd

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Comparing Ovechkin to Bossy or Lemieux is very difficult. Little more to consider than raw systems.

Goaltenders, depth players, conditioning and shotblocking were far inferior ("subtle picks" have been a thing for decades and unsubtle picks--which were more effective--used to be allowed), but so was medicine. Ovechkin's had some knee injuries. Two generations ago, those used to make guys a lot worse. Yzerman went from a regular 60 goal scorer to a 25 goal guy overnight when he hurt his knee.

With modern medicine, do Bossy or Mario struggle with the same degree of back problems? How many goals did they not end up scoring because of pain or limited range of motion? How many do they score now if doctors can get them back to 95% of what they were before these chronic injuries?

Additionally, there were players who would target the opponent's knee on purpose back then--especially if the guy was particularly violent, like OV is. There isn't anyone in the league who makes a habit of this now. Does a young OV run around one game and find Doug Gilmour low-bridging him on the way back to the bench? Considering it would have made him a hero during the Cold War, I'd go so far as to call this 'likely.' And guys who play like OV used to ended up with 60-90 fighting majors across their careers, even if they don't want to. What do undiagnosed, played-through concussions do to his timing? Physical stars used to get jumped by coked-out roid-heads at least a few times every season. The referees just let this go back then.

Then there are the sticks. OV is very good at leveraging stick flex for heat and accuracy. Better than probably anybody. Only Laine's even in his neighborhood with this. That wasn't a thing back then. Big advantage rendered irrelevant.

Too many unknowns to say how Ovechkin, in particular, does in the 80s and early 90s (I feel the same way about Gretzky playing now). He'd be a great scorer, but I think it's very tough to say with any confidence he scores more total goals than Bossy or Gretz in the same circumstances. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but figuring this out is not a simple matter.
 

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JordanStaal#1Fan
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Yeah, so your judging him based on his position and the fact he’s played on maybe two actual teams that could win a cup.

Well, in part, inevitably, yes. In terms of impact on the game, a winger will never be "better" than a center (star vs star, obviously, Ovechkin is 10x more impactful than a regular 2C, let's not go crazy).

If we get back to goal scoring, position doesn't matter. At least Mario and Gretzky were better at goal scoring. Saying Ovechkin is the greatest goalscorer is what I find asanine.
 

Tom Hanks

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Yeah, so your judging him based on his position and the fact he’s played on maybe two actual teams that could win a cup.

I love Malkin, but he will always be as a secondary fiddle like Messier was until he won two cups without Gretzky. And even then..

Ovechkin if he wins a cup will be seen as a clear cut # 2 in the Crosby era that people will argue was essentially a better player than Crosby because of his trophy case.

Would you trade Malkin for Ovechkin?

If given the choice at the draft knowing what you know now, would you take Ovechkin over Malkin?
 

Gurglesons

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Would you trade Malkin for Ovechkin?

If given the choice at the draft knowing what you know now, would you take Ovechkin over Malkin?

I mean, you arguably always take the center if you know they will have a career like Malkin. That being said, who knows how Malkin and Ovechkin’s careers are impacted if they are swapped. Ovechkin would either be playing with or behind Sid and Malkin would have been in the trash heap that is the Capitals.

It is a silly argument. My point this whole time has been the # 1 and # 2 of the Crosby era are clear cut. It goes Crosby then Ovechkin. If Malkin wins another Art Ross and some other type of MVP like a Smythe or Hart while performing in this way while Ovechkin starts trailing off as he gets older the argument may shift.
 

Turin

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Comparing Ovechkin to Bossy or Lemieux is very difficult. Little more to consider than raw systems.

Goaltenders, depth players, conditioning and shotblocking were far inferior ("subtle picks" have been a thing for decades and unsubtle picks--which were more effective--used to be allowed), but so was medicine. Ovechkin's had some knee injuries. Two generations ago, those used to make guys a lot worse. Yzerman went from a regular 60 goal scorer to a 25 goal guy overnight when he hurt his knee.

With modern medicine, do Bossy or Mario struggle with the same degree of back problems? How many goals did they not end up scoring because of pain or limited range of motion? How many do they score now if doctors can get them back to 95% of what they were before these chronic injuries?

Additionally, there were players who would target the opponent's knee on purpose back then--especially if the guy was particularly violent, like OV is. There isn't anyone in the league who makes a habit of this now. Does a young OV run around one game and find Doug Gilmour low-bridging him on the way back to the bench? Considering it would have made him a hero during the Cold War, I'd go so far as to call this 'likely.' And guys who play like OV used to ended up with 60-90 fighting majors across their careers, even if they don't want to. What do undiagnosed, played-through concussions do to his timing? Physical stars used to get jumped by coked-out roid-heads at least a few times every season. The referees just let this go back then.

Then there are the sticks. OV is very good at leveraging stick flex for heat and accuracy. Better than probably anybody. Only Laine's even in his neighborhood with this. That wasn't a thing back then. Big advantage rendered irrelevant.

Too many unknowns to say how Ovechkin, in particular, does in the 80s and early 90s (I feel the same way about Gretzky playing now). He'd be a great scorer, but I think it's very tough to say with any confidence he scores more total goals than Bossy or Gretz in the same circumstances. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but figuring this out is not a simple matter.

This is fair. To your point about stick flex, it helps that Ovechkin was 230 lbs of pure force while bending it, while the goal scorers of yesteryear didn’t train like modern athletes at all. That’s not to say they wouldn’t if they were born later into a different environment, but it is to say that in a vacuum modern NHL players are just better across the board.
 

HandshakeLine

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Comparing Ovechkin to Bossy or Lemieux is very difficult. Little more to consider than raw systems.

Goaltenders, depth players, conditioning and shotblocking were far inferior ("subtle picks" have been a thing for decades and unsubtle picks--which were more effective--used to be allowed), but so was medicine. Ovechkin's had some knee injuries. Two generations ago, those used to make guys a lot worse. Yzerman went from a regular 60 goal scorer to a 25 goal guy overnight when he hurt his knee.

With modern medicine, do Bossy or Mario struggle with the same degree of back problems? How many goals did they not end up scoring because of pain or limited range of motion? How many do they score now if doctors can get them back to 95% of what they were before these chronic injuries?

Additionally, there were players who would target the opponent's knee on purpose back then--especially if the guy was particularly violent, like OV is. There isn't anyone in the league who makes a habit of this now. Does a young OV run around one game and find Doug Gilmour low-bridging him on the way back to the bench? Considering it would have made him a hero during the Cold War, I'd go so far as to call this 'likely.' And guys who play like OV used to ended up with 60-90 fighting majors across their careers, even if they don't want to. What do undiagnosed, played-through concussions do to his timing? Physical stars used to get jumped by coked-out roid-heads at least a few times every season. The referees just let this go back then.

Then there are the sticks. OV is very good at leveraging stick flex for heat and accuracy. Better than probably anybody. Only Laine's even in his neighborhood with this. That wasn't a thing back then. Big advantage rendered irrelevant.

Too many unknowns to say how Ovechkin, in particular, does in the 80s and early 90s (I feel the same way about Gretzky playing now). He'd be a great scorer, but I think it's very tough to say with any confidence he scores more total goals than Bossy or Gretz in the same circumstances. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but figuring this out is not a simple matter.

An excellent post and lots of great points, BB. It also reminded me of this historical tidbit, re: scoring 50 in 50. Take it away, Wikipedia:

The 1944–45 NHL season was a record-setting one for Richard. He first set a new mark for points in one game when he made five goals and three assists in a 9–1 victory over the Detroit Red Wings on December 28, 1944; his eight points broke the previous record of seven held by three players,[31] and stood for 32 years until surpassed in 1976 by Darryl Sittler.[32] Richard achieved the feat despite arriving for the game exhausted from moving into his new home that afternoon.[33] He continued scoring at an unprecedented rate, and by February 1945 was approaching Joe Malone's NHL record of 44 goals in one season.[34] Richard broke the record on February 25, 1945, in a 5–2 victory over Toronto. Malone was on hand to present Richard with the puck used to score the 45th goal.[35]

As Richard approached 50 goals for the season, opposition players resorted to increasingly violent efforts to prevent him from scoring. He had to fight past slashes, hooks, and even players who draped themselves across his back.[33]Richard went eight games without scoring and began Montreal's final regular season game, March 18, on the road against the Boston Bruins with 49 goals.[33] He finally reached the milestone by scoring with 2:15 remaining in the game, a 4–2 Montreal win.[37] He became the first player to score 50 goals in 50 games, a standard that remains one of the most celebrated achievements in NHL history.[38] Richard finished the season with 73 points, seven behind Lach and six ahead of Blake, as the Punch line finished first, second and third in league scoring.[39] Richard finished second in the voting for the Hart Trophy as league MVP behind Lach.

Ovechkin is defended hard these days, but nobody's lining up to prevent a Russian player from achieving a milestone league wide. It's not 1968 or the Summit Series anymore.

And as far as medical care, it's just such a different beast. Ovechkin has had trainers, nutritionists, and the best medical care since he was a boy. Richard was rejected from the army during WWII because slashes to his wrists and ankles had damaged them and didn't heal enough and yet, he was expected to take more punishment because that's just how the game was. :laugh:
 

Tom Hanks

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I mean, you arguably always take the center if you know they will have a career like Malkin. That being said, who knows how Malkin and Ovechkin’s careers are impacted if they are swapped. Ovechkin would either be playing with or behind Sid and Malkin would have been in the trash heap that is the Capitals.

Well if you’d take Malkin why are pumping Ovechkin’s tyre’s in a Malkin thread?

I think it’s safe to say Malkin would be as good on any team. He drives the play, he creates the play.
 
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Gurglesons

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Well if you’d take Malkin why are pumping Ovechkin’s tyre’s in a Malkin thread?

I think it’s safe to say Malkin would be as good on any team. He drives the play, he creates the play.

Malkin is a center. That is his role in the game.

Ovechkin is a winger and arguably has been the second most effective player at what he is suppose to do in his role behind Sid in the past 12 years. If he scores 50 goals this year he will join a list of four players have done that post 30. His 2005-06 is the second best goal scoring season of all time if it is adjusted for era.

Like I said, Ovechkin could easily be putting up these numbers or better with the Penguins behind Sid.
 

Ugene Magic

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You guys are seriously in your own world of denial if you don't appreciate Ovechkin's greatness. Seriously, the guy could potentially hit 800 goals. That is ridiculous. If he does that he will be the best goal scorer of all time. If you think otherwise that's simply your pens binders on.

The caps havent won the cup because of defense and secondary scoring, not ovechkin.


You are not talking about greatness, you are talking about the best goalscorer ever. He simply isn't, and that doesn't take away from his greatness. But just admit part of his greatness is derived from his one trick left dot sideshow.

Let me give you a curveball here.

Give Ovechkin a straight wooden stick and not the ilegal whippy banna curve.

How much has he gain in advantages from his stick? Remember, the good guys could do it with straight sticks and pick corners, lift the puck at will.
 
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Richard

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You are not talking about greatness, you are talking about the best goalscorer ever. He simply isn't, and that doesn't take away from his greatness. But just admit part of his greatness is derived from his one trick left dot sideshow.

Let me give you a curveball here.

Give Ovechkin a straight wooden stick and not the ilegal whippy banna curve.

How much has he gain in advantages from his stick. Remember, the good guys could do it with straight sticks and pick corners, lift the puck at will.
His peers have the same equipment. And he is simply the best goal scorer ever.

There have been 20 50 goal seasons since the NHL lockout and ten of the those came in the first three years----- and Ovechkin has 7 of them. In the last seven seasons 10 players have hit 50 and Ovechkin has five of those seasons and Stamkos has 2....

Stamkos, Heatley and Kovalchuck are 2nd with two since the lockout.........
 

Ugene Magic

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His peers have the same equipment. And he is simply the best goal scorer ever.

There have been 20 50 goal seasons since the NHL lockout and ten of the those came in the first three years----- and Ovechkin has 7 of them. In the last seven seasons 10 players have hit 50 and Ovechkin has five of those seasons and Stamkos has 2....

Stamkos, Heatley and Kovalchuck are 2nd with two since the lockout.........

But you are talking all-time, this isn't inclusive.

You are throwing up smoke and mirrors to prove a point. The point is, without those he isn't doing what makes him great. Those were not available back then. While he may still score a lot of goals, I doubt he's doing 100 mile hour whip shots.

I think you are proving my point pointing out him being the only one scoring like that on a regular basis. Stamkos is another doing the same thing, but he has a injury/ loss of St. Louis who knew how to feed him regularly issues or he'd have more.

The others did it wherever they were, behind the goal line, in tight, slap shots, from everywhere. They were not standing straight up standing on the dot waiting in the same place game in and out.

I don't think he's the greatest goal scorer ever while having equipment advantages for his particular go to move.

I still say it's mario because he can do it anywhere, LW/RW or Center. Stuff Ovechkin could only dream of doing due to having a curved stick.

Mario and Wayne have multiple games of 5 goals in a single game, Mario with 5 in a playoff game.

AO - 0

You would have a hard time proving he's the best goalscorer ever. Make it your opinion and it's all good, but you won't get many to believe you.
 
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Richard

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But you are talking all-time, this isn't inclusive.

You are throwing up smoke and mirrors to prove a point. The point is, without those he isn't doing what makes him great. Those were not available back then. While he may still score a lot of goals, I doubt he's doing 100 mile hour whip shots.

I think you are proving my point pointing out him being the only one scoring like that on a regular basis. Stamkos is another doing the same thing, but he has a injury/ loss of St. Louis who knew how to feed him regularly issues or he'd have more.

The others did it wherever they were, behind the goal line, in tight, slap shots, from everywhere. They were not standing straight up standing on the dot waiting in the same place game in and out.

I don't think he's the greatest goal scorer ever while having equipment advantages for his particular go to move.

I still say it's mario because he can do it anywhere, LW/RW or Center. Stuff Ovechkin could only dream of doing due to having a curved stick.

Mario and Wayne have multiple games of 5 goals in a single game, Mario with 5 in a playoff game.

AO - 0

You would have a hard time proving he's the best goalscorer ever. Make it your opinion and it's all good, but you won't get many to believe you.

No sir, YOU are throwing out a straw man argument; namely that sticks in specific and equipment in general is the reason Ovechkin scores his goals.

I chose NOT to respond to that because it is ludicrous.

Fine, Ovechkin scores because of his stick, his 100 mile an hour shot. But everyone else isn't scoring with those sticks and, furthermore, the goal tenders aren't using horse hair pads and jason masks anymore! They have pads that stay light and nimble all game (have you ever played in 1980's goalie equipment? I have and let me assure you I wouldn't now step in the net against a roller puck with that utter SHIT) sticks that are light as a feather and chest protectors that ALLOW you to play the butterfly WITHOUT killing yourself. Do you think goalies didn't know that a majority of goals are scored along the ice, hell we have known where most hockey goals are scored since the 1950's (father something or other published a great statistical reference sheet). Goalies couldn't play a style that covered a majority of the net because of equipment. Do you think Patrick Roy, the father of the butterfly, (which is erroneous, butterfly has been known since the 1950's) would play the same way without a mask?

Your argument about sticks is crazy. Ovechkin is playing against the best competition that has EVER existed in the NHL (it took ten years or so, but with USA, Canada, Russia, Finland, Sweden, heck now Germany and Czech/solvinia/solvacks)........... and he is still scoring at a pace that may never be equaled.
 

Gurglesons

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But you are talking all-time, this isn't inclusive.

You are throwing up smoke and mirrors to prove a point. The point is, without those he isn't doing what makes him great. Those were not available back then. While he may still score a lot of goals, I doubt he's doing 100 mile hour whip shots.

I think you are proving my point pointing out him being the only one scoring like that on a regular basis. Stamkos is another doing the same thing, but he has a injury/ loss of St. Louis who knew how to feed him regularly issues or he'd have more.

The others did it wherever they were, behind the goal line, in tight, slap shots, from everywhere. They were not standing straight up standing on the dot waiting in the same place game in and out.

I don't think he's the greatest goal scorer ever while having equipment advantages for his particular go to move.

I still say it's mario because he can do it anywhere, LW/RW or Center. Stuff Ovechkin could only dream of doing due to having a curved stick.

Mario and Wayne have multiple games of 5 goals in a single game, Mario with 5 in a playoff game.

AO - 0

You would have a hard time proving he's the best goalscorer ever. Make it your opinion and it's all good, but you won't get many to believe you.

There are ten players with as many 40+ goal seasons in history as Ovechkin.

If you take out the two lockouts. One he was
on pace for 40 and would easily get it. The other would’ve been his rookie year.

He’d be tied with Lemieux and Dionne and Gretzky would be the only one with more per history.

He is a top three goal scorer of all time.
 

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