Why exactly do you think Malkin is an underrated as he is?

[HandshakeLine]

Mario also had Jaromir Jagr on his wing....

Oh, so Ovechkin's linemates don't matter, but Lemieux's do? Help me out here. You're all over the map.

Let's try this, and maybe we can all get some consistency in what we're talking about:

If Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer of all time, what does that actually mean?

 

[Richard]

Oh, so Ovechkin's linemates don't matter, but Lemieux's do? Help me out here. You're all over the map.

NHL goals per game, Ovechkins career average about 5.5

Mario about 6.4-7

Wayne about 7

He is the best ever. Sorry. Numbers bear it out.

 

[rintinw]

I feel like the definition of best goalscorer is shifting really rapidly with Richard's post. Are we talking about, literally, the guy who scores the most goals? Because there's no way Ovechkin's going to get close to Jags and Hull, let alone Gretzky and Howe.

I mean, even IF Richard's talking about Goals/GP, Ovechkin's still not overtaking the current leaders, without some pretty iffy stat weighting going on.

To be honest if you check player careers up until age of 32 years, Ovechkin is 3rd in goals scored (598, with 15 games remaining on season) with only Lemieux (613) and Gretzky (765) before him. And it's really crazy that Howe was only at 469 goals at that age. Also if you check how players fared after 32 years of age, it's pretty doable for AO to get to 800 goals. And it's also not impossible for him to even catch Gretzky (though that would require a lot of things to go right).

 

[Tom Hanks]

A lot of Ovechkin talk (and other players) in a “Is Malkin underrated?” thread

Guess it kind of proves a point.

 

[Turin]

Ovechkin is the best shooter of all time, I can get behind that. Lord knows I’ve never been terrified more by a player carrying the puck across the blue line like him back in day. He was the perfect antagonist for this team, and after 3 Cups at his expense it’s easy to appreciate what he brings/brought to the sport. Although I still maintain that every hit the guy threw was charging.

I’m not sure what happened to his body after 2010, but his explosiveness diminished greatly and he became a shell of what he was at even strength. That the shell is still the best goal scorer speaks to how special he was before. He’s re-invented himself as a more specialized player and cudos to him, he still scores goals at an unreal rate. His overall game though, which was limited to begin with given its nature, declined rapidly after 25. Seriously interesting career arc he’s had.

 

[pokey10]

Howe is the most comparable. Gretzky scored in an era with over 2 more goals scored a game. Plus the goalie position sans 1996 is COMPLETELY different.

If Ovechkin makes it to 800 he is the best ever.

I dont put much credence into the differnt era defense. If it was higher scoring then, dont forget about how physical it was then too... Clutch a grab hockey at its finest.

 

[HandshakeLine]

To be honest if you check player careers up until age of 32 years, Ovechkin is 3rd in goals scored (598, with 15 games remaining on season) with only Lemieux (613) and Gretzky (765) before him. And it's really crazy that Howe was only at 469 goals at that age. Also if you check how players fared after 32 years of age, it's pretty doable for AO to get to 800 goals. And it's also not impossible for him to even catch Gretzky (though that would require a lot of things to go right).

Sure, but again, that's a lot of selection bias going on. Lemieux retires at 31 after seasons of back trouble and cancer, and his G/GP is way higher than Ovechkin's. Now, Richard's saying we have to ignore that because of era and numbers. Okay. I'll play along.

But if we're going to award Ovechkin weight for scoring in the modern era, we have to do the same for all players that played IN the modern era or dead puck era. So, Jagr's totals go up, Gretzky's sometimes go down. Fair enough. But we also have to adjust for players like Howe who spent a large part of their careers playing in eras before expansion where goals per game are way lower than even today's (around 4.79 to the modern era's 5.5)

So, if someone's gonna claim the numbers prove it, I wanna see the math.

Also, assuming that Ovechkin keeps scoring at his current pace forever (he'll finish with 49 goals on the year, under that assumption), he'll need to keep playing at his current pace with absolutely no deviation in pace until he's 36 just to get to 800.

That'd be enough to put him in the conversation for best pure goal scorer, maybe. But again, that's assuming a ton and playing real fast and loose with stats weighting.

So, I'd be happy to revisit this conversation when AO retires

 

[HandshakeLine]

A lot of Ovechkin talk (and other players) in a “Is Malkin underrated?” thread

Guess it kind of proves a point.

EXACTLY.

 

[pokey10]

I wish Malkin had an illegal curve, just for shits and gigs.

 

[rintinw]

Sure, but again, that's a lot of selection bias going on. Lemieux retires at 31 after seasons of back trouble and cancer, and his G/GP is way higher than Ovechkin's. Now, Richard's saying we have to ignore that because of era and numbers. Okay. I'll play along.

But if we're going to award Ovechkin weight for scoring in the modern era, we have to do the same for all players that played IN the modern era or dead puck era. So, Jagr's totals go up, Gretzky's sometimes go down. Fair enough. But we also have to adjust for players like Howe who spent a large part of their careers playing in eras before expansion where goals per game are way lower than even today's (around 4.79 to the modern era's 5.5)

So, if someone's gonna claim the numbers prove it, I wanna see the math.

If you adjust for an era (using hockey-reference adjustment because I am lazy) then at the age of 32 you have:
Ovechkin 689 (988 GP)
Gretzky 620 (1044)
Bobby Hull 590 (958)
Jagr 581 (1027)
Howe 581 (980)
Lemieux 531 (745)

Of course simple adjustment for league scoring levels is not perfect so take it with grain of salt.

Link: https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...c1val=50&threshhold=5&order_by=goals_adjusted

 

[Turin]

I dont put much credence into the differnt era defense. If it was higher scoring then, dont forget about how physical it was then too... Clutch a grab hockey at its finest.

This only mattered to unskilled and weak players. If the Penguins played a series against a team full of Darian Hatcher’s they’d sweep them in 3. The systemic defensive structure and subtle picks and interference of today is infinitely more effective at suppressing skill than clutching and grabing was.

 

[HandshakeLine]

If you adjust for an era (using hockey-reference adjustment because I am lazy) then at the age of 32 you have:
Ovechkin 689 (988 GP)
Gretzky 620 (1044)
Bobby Hull 590 (958)
Jagr 581 (1027)
Howe 581 (980)
Lemieux 531 (745)

Of course simple adjustment for league scoring levels is not perfect so take it with grain of salt.

Link: https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...c1val=50&threshhold=5&order_by=goals_adjusted

Oh, I have no desire to do that too because it's Richard's argument, not mine.

But the way hockey-reference weights their scoring is also hugely f***ed because it's only counting players that played over 50 games in a season for it. So, you're losing some huge outlier seasons both in terms of adjusting for scoring in the league, lockout years, and for players like Lemieux who were injury plagued. Lemieux is literally penalized two full seasons there (where he was scoring almost a goal a game), as is Rocket Richard.

 

[rintinw]

Oh, I have no desire to do that too because it's Richard's argument, not mine.

But the way hockey-reference weights their scoring is also hugely ****ed because it's only counting players that played over 50 games in a season for it. So, you're losing some huge outlier seasons both in terms of adjusting for scoring in the league, lockout years, and for players like Lemieux who were injury plagued. Lemieux is literally penalized two full seasons there (where he was scoring almost a goal a game), as is Rocket Richard.

That games played criterion is to weed out players with less than 50 career games played. Not 50 per season. It remained from my earlier search when I was checking goals per game

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Preach, brother. Which is also one of the many reasons why it makes comparing hockey across eras so tough.

You know what chaps my ass with the HHOF especially though? That they give weight to All-Star selections.

Ugh. Don''t even get me started on this horseshit.

All star games are the all around absolute worst. A huge laugher. The fact that they factor so heavily into legacy is truly a shame.

 

[Gurglesons]

How is Ovie a better goalscorer than Mario?

You’re comparing different eras.

Ovechkin is likely the best pure goal scorer of all time given what kind of league he is playing in.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

People thinking Ovechkin is the best goal scorer ever are under 30 and haven't seen prime Lemieux, Gretzky, Bossy and even Hull.

He is as overrated as Geno is underrated. There is context to his numbers.

 

[Turin]

If Malkin wins an Art Ross this year he will have 3, to go along with 3 Cups, a Hart, Lindsay, Conn Smythe and Calder. His resume will be better than Ovechkin, Forsberg, Sakic, Yzerman and Fedorov if it isn’t already. That’s pretty special for a guy who’s lost so many full seasons.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

People thinking Ovechkin is the best goal scorer ever are under 30 and haven't seen prime Lemieux, Gretzky, Bossy and even Hull.

He is as overrated as Geno is underrated. There is context to his numbers.

I mean... I dunno about that. Ovechkin is a goal scoring machine and doing it in an era where that is much more difficult to achieve. I give him his full due.

But he's no Malkin. I kinda thought that was borderline common sense at this point...

 

[Gurglesons]

People thinking Ovechkin is the best goal scorer ever are under 30 and haven't seen prime Lemieux, Gretzky, Bossy and even Hull.

He is as overrated as Geno is underrated. There is context to his numbers.

I saw prime Lemieux that is it. Lemieux in my mind is the best offensive player I have ever seen. He didn’t score like Ovechkin did though, especially in his early 30s.

I think there is an argument to say 96 was his second best year and he wasn’t doing what Ovechkin did.

Ovechkin can score at will. Lemieux could turn a game at will.

The difference is the era. I think you could make an argument Jags was a better goal scorer than Mario based on when their primes were.

 

[Turin]

People thinking Ovechkin is the best goal scorer ever are under 30 and haven't seen prime Lemieux, Gretzky, Bossy and even Hull.

He is as overrated as Geno is underrated. There is context to his numbers.

Context is in Ovechkin’s favour. Scoring goals consistently is impossible in 2018 compared to 1985. The game is almost twice as fast, the goalies are almost twice the size and every player you play against is the worlds best from every country.

 

[HandshakeLine]

That games played criterion is to weed out players with less than 50 career games played. Not 50 per season. It remained from my earlier search when I was checking goals per game

Gotcha. I thought that was a bit weird.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I saw prime Lemieux that is it. Lemieux in my mind is the best offensive player I have ever seen. He didn’t score like Ovechkin did though, especially in his early 30s.

I think there is an argument to say 96 was his second best year and he wasn’t doing what Ovechkin did.

Ovechkin can score at will. Lemieux could turn a game at will.

Ovechkin cannot "score at will", he is continuously set up and takes 8 shots per game. That's the context I am referring to.

Caps are smart to play him like that because of his shot, however, it comes.crashing down in the playoffs. Teams will let Ovechkin have his and shutdown everyone else. They will also eliminate him off the rush making him a PP player.

A guy that scores at will has more than two go-to scoring plays.

Great goal score. Greatest of this era. Of all time? Absolutely not.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I will absolutely agree that Ovechkin RELIES on his linemates and overall team concept. That isn't even necessarily a knock -- he plays a lesser position than Malkin and the team is smart to play up arguably the best weapon they have.

But I mean... Malkin can play with literally scraps and still outpace Ovechkin. And I would argue Malkin has gone through large stretches of his career where the team was playing CONTRARY to his style. Still didn't seem to matter much.

Frankly I don't even know if that's what we're arguing anymore. But whatever.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ovechkin cannot "score at will", he is continuously set up and takes 8 shots per game. That's the context I am referring to.

Caps are smart to play him like that because of his shot, however, it comes.crashing down in the playoffs. Teams will let Ovechkin have his and shutdown everyone else. They will also eliminate him off the rush making him a PP player.

A guy that scores as will has more than two go-to scoring plays.

Great goal score. Greatest of this era. Of all time? Absolutely not.

He’s scored a .5 GPG rate in the playoffs?

 

[Gurglesons]

I will absolutely agree that Ovechkin RELIES on his linemates and overall team concept. That isn't even necessarily a knock -- he plays a lesser position than Malkin and the team is smart to play up arguably the best weapon they have.

But I mean... Malkin can play with literally scraps and still outpace Ovechkin. And I would argue Malkin has gone through large stretches of his career where the team was playing CONTRARY to his style. Still didn't seem to matter much.

Frankly I don't even know if that's what we're arguing anymore. But whatever.

Let me know when Ovechkin has a better version of himself on the first line.