Why do people dislike abdelkader so much?

[obey86]

Bertuzzi is going to fall victim to the criticism. Bert is a great player, but people are going to hate him when he starts making $5+ million a season.

Na. If Bertuzzi is making $5M and puts up 19 and 21 points like Abdelkader has two of the last three years I will start to hate him. But if he's making $5M and continuously putting up 50+ points (played at a 53 point pace last season) I don't see why anyone would be upset paying him $5M/year.

If Abdelkader were putting up 45+ every season right now, people wouldn't be that upset with his contract, even if he was overpaid. But he's not. He's like a 20-30 point guy who looks terrible out there.

 

[obey86]

In 2016 you could have said the same thing about Abby.

And he didn't continue his 45+ point production did he? That's what he's saying. It's about the combination of production and contract, not just the contract.

Most of us would still think a 45+ point Abdelkader was overpaid. But that's at least a somewhat tenable contract for that sort of production. 4.2M for 20 points isn't tenable.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Na. If Bertuzzi is making $5M and puts up 19 and 21 points like Abdelkader has two of the last three years I will start to hate him. But if he's making $5M and continuously putting up 50+ points (played at a 53 point pace last season) I don't see why anyone would be upset paying him $5M/year.

If Abdelkader were putting up 45+ every season right now, people wouldn't be that upset with his contract, even if he was overpaid. But he's not. He's like a 20-30 point guy who looks terrible out there.

If he was putting up 45+ every season, NOBODY would be pissed about the contract besides the people who will never like Abdelkader. 4.25 for a guy putting up 45 points is, if anything, underpaid. The problem with Abby is that he's not putting up points, he's not playing good two-way hockey, and he's taking dumb penalties.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Not Negative. You said regarding Bertuzzi "Not if he keeps playing the way he does and finishes every season between 45-55 points".

In 2016 Abby was coming off a 44 (in 71 games) and 42 point season. If he had kept up that pace to present, nobody would be upset with him. 4.25 mil for 45 - 55 points is completely worth it.

I understand that you are saying that its a different situation, but I'm I didnt mean to imply that it was. My point was simply that at that point in time if Abby kept up the production, people would be fine with him, just like they will be fine with Bert if he keeps it up. If Bert gets paid 6mil/year and drops to 19 points a season and starts to play the way Abby has played, people will turn on him as well. Nobody is going to care that he is younger. Overpaid is over paid.

With that said, I'm not saying that will happen to Bert, I think he will be just fine.

People are going to turn on Little Bert in two or three years anyway because he won't be young anymore.

 

[Winger98]

If he was putting up 45+ every season, NOBODY would be pissed about the contract besides the people who will never like Abdelkader. 4.25 for a guy putting up 45 points is, if anything, underpaid. The problem with Abby is that he's not putting up points, he's not playing good two-way hockey, and he's taking dumb penalties.

I wouldn't love having the guy around, but if he put up 30 points, was a big physical presence, and a rock defensively...I could live with that. Unfortunately, the guy has just been a literal rock lately. sits there, takes up space, everyone walking around him...

 

[wingfan]

Not Negative. You said regarding Bertuzzi "Not if he keeps playing the way he does and finishes every season between 45-55 points".

In 2016 Abby was coming off a 44 (in 71 games) and 42 point season. If he had kept up that pace to present, nobody would be upset with him. 4.25 mil for 45 - 55 points is completely worth it.

I understand that you are saying that its a different situation, but I'm I didnt mean to imply that it was. My point was simply that at that point in time if Abby kept up the production, people would be fine with him, just like they will be fine with Bert if he keeps it up. If Bert gets paid 6mil/year and drops to 19 points a season and starts to play the way Abby has played, people will turn on him as well. Nobody is going to care that he is younger. Overpaid is over paid.

With that said, I'm not saying that will happen to Bert, I think he will be just fine.

Abdelkader was playing with one of the most skilled and greatest two way centers of all time and struggled to score 20 goals. Bert has grinded for his points. Larkin is a great center with an amazing future, but he's not Datsyuk. Franzen would be invisible for at least half his games on Datsyuk's wing and was good for 25-30 if he was playing over 70 games. He literally played 54 games in 13/14 and MATCHED Abdelkader's career high in points. Abdelkader didn't have the skill and everyone knew it, but he was forced there anyway because we didn't want to give the young guys a chance and Holland couldn't do much more than kick tires on any top 6 scoring winger. At his peak anyone who watched the team knew he was still nothing more than a fringe 3rd liner/PP specialist forced into a role that he was not equipped for.

 

[kliq]

Abdelkader was playing with one of the most skilled and greatest two way centers of all time and struggled to score 20 goals. Bert has grinded for his points. Larkin is a great center with an amazing future, but he's not Datsyuk. Franzen would be invisible for at least half his games on Datsyuk's wing and was good for 25-30 if he was playing over 70 games. He literally played 54 games in 13/14 and MATCHED Abdelkader's career high in points. Abdelkader didn't have the skill and everyone knew it, but he was forced there anyway because we didn't want to give the young guys a chance and Holland couldn't do much more than kick tires on any top 6 scoring winger. At his peak anyone who watched the team knew he was still nothing more than a fringe 3rd liner/PP specialist forced into a role that he was not equipped for.

I don’t really see the need to bring up Franzen, both Abby and Bert aren’t close to his level. Guy disappeared at times, but I believe that was likely due to playing with undiagnosed concussions, or coming back too early from said concussions, I find it hard to believe that he just didn’t feel like playing sometimes for the hell of it.

No real disagreements from me regarding your assessment of Abby, I would just say that like Bert I do think Abby grinded back then for some of his points.

And yes, Larkin is no Datsyuk. I would never argue otherwise.

 

[FMichael]

In 2016 you could have said the same thing about Abby.

Abby always benefitted from the likes of Dats/Hank.

Granted - lil'Bert has finally gotten time with Larkin/Mantha (which IMHO he's earned), but my eye test alone tells me Bert > Abby regardless who their linemates are.

I can honestly see Bert develop into a Pat Verbeek type.

 

[kliq]

Abby always benefitted from the likes of Dats/Hank.

Granted - lil'Bert has finally gotten time with Larkin/Mantha (which IMHO he's earned), but my eye test alone tells me Bert > Abby regardless who their linemates are.

I can honestly see Bert develop into a Pat Verbeek type.

I hope so, and I could see that as well.

This isn’t directed at you, but I’m not even trying to defend Abby, but there was a time where the guy was liked and people posted in a similar way about him that they do about Bert now. I hope Bert surpasses anything Abby has done, we all win if that’s the case lol. If he does sign for 6mil though, expectations will change.

 

[FMichael]

I hope so, and I could see that as well.

This isn’t directed at you, but I’m not even trying to defend Abby, but there was a time where the guy was liked and people posted in a similar way about him that they do about Bert now. I hope Bert surpasses anything Abby has done, we all win if that’s the case lol. If he does sign for 6mil though, expectations will change.

Indeed - $$$ does change expectations from the fans point of view.

Look over at the Leafs...Nylander has been under the microscope since the minute he signed his lucrative deal, and now with Marner's camp looking at Tavares/Matthews type of $$$...Marner better hope he can continue with putting up 85 plus pts per season - otherwise

As for lil'Bert...If Blash keeps that top line together - I'd expect to see Bert putting up 50 to 60 pts a season...I could see Yzerman signing him to a deal sometime in Jan/Feb 2020 for 4 to 6 years for sumthin in the neighborhood of $4.5 to $5.5 million per season.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Imagine this thread three years from now, when Gator still has another year on his contract.

 

[Retire91]

In late to the thread but here is my opinion to the OP question. There is nothing really wrong with Abby the person or the player. I simply dislike him because of how the wings utilized him in the roster.

Abby is, and always was, a replaceable plug in any teams depth chart and wouldn't be a key in anyone's championship run. There is nothing special about the player but you would never know that the way the wings treated him.

In the years around 2010, where the wings predictable decline was becoming obvious, Babcock often played Abby in a first line winger role complete with PP time. Remember the line of Abby-Daytsuk-Cleary? Just that alone can never be forgiven. He was one of Babcock's boys during a time where the dumpster fire was on the horizon but people on the boards still tore you apart if you mentioned a rebuild. "The wings don't rebuild they just reload". Well you know what that was a "load" of? It was a load of crap.

Then on top of that pile of steaming heap, they signed him to a franchise term. A max term contract that people thought was a typo in the headline when they read it. No typo, Abby was a lifetime player and a mainstay in the top 6 with PP time for the foreseeable future.

The team played him over his head and they signed him out of his league. And now that he is played more like he should be he is overpaid. Abby has never contributed anything but negative value to this team and he is one of the poster children for everything fans had to suffer for 10 years. Will always always always hate what he represents.

 

[kliq]

In late to the thread but here is my opinion to the OP question. There is nothing really wrong with Abby the person or the player. I simply dislike him because of how the wings utilized him in the roster.

Abby is, and always was, a replaceable plug in any teams depth chart and wouldn't be a key in anyone's championship run. There is nothing special about the player but you would never know that the way the wings treated him.

In the years around 2010, where the wings predictable decline was becoming obvious, Babcock often played Abby in a first line winger role complete with PP time. Remember the line of Abby-Daytsuk-Cleary? Just that alone can never be forgiven. He was one of Babcock's boys during a time where the dumpster fire was on the horizon but people on the boards still tore you apart if you mentioned a rebuild. "The wings don't rebuild they just reload". Well you know what that was a "load" of? It was a load of crap.

Then on top of that pile of steaming heap, they signed him to a franchise term. A max term contract that people thought was a typo in the headline when they read it. No typo, Abby was a lifetime player and a mainstay in the top 6 with PP time for the foreseeable future.

The team played him over his head and they signed him out of his league. And now that he is played more like he should be he is overpaid. Abby has never contributed anything but negative value to this team and he is one of the poster children for everything fans had to suffer for 10 years. Will always always always hate what he represents.

A lot of what you are saying is correct in hindsight. However, my issue with statements like this (first bold) are that I had heard that we needed a re-build and that the Wings were too old and had to tear it down since 2003 after the Ducks swept us. If a fan screams re-build every single year, eventually they are going to get it right. Just imagine if Holland tore it down in 2003 and traded Lidstrom and co. we do not win a cup in 2008. By 2010, that became the cliche thing to say about the Wings. If people were tearing you apart for saying that, I have to imagine its because they were sick of hearing the same thing every single year for a decade.

There is no doubt that once Lidstrom retired and we struck out on Suter, a re-build should have happened, its such a tricky place for a franchise to be in when their team is declining especially due to a retirement or UFA departure, it actually reminds me very much of what the Toronto Raptors are going through right now with Leonard leaving in that some want them to tear it down now, some want them to see what they have, or even just replace Leonard next off season if possible.

The Abby contract was awful, no doubt. I want to be clear, I AM NOT defending that contract Holland could have easily signed him for 3 or 4 years. I agree with most of what you are saying about him with the exception of the hyperbolic parts I bolded in the last paragraph. Abby was once a good role player that could contribute here and there in the top 6. Once he signed that contract, everything changed for him, which is what it is.

 

[kliq]

Imagine this thread three years from now, when Gator still has another year on his contract.

I dont think he will be here. I imagine by that point is is bought out, traded with an asset, or on LTIR if he gets hurt.

 

[Mlotek]

To think before Larkin showed up some people were expecting him to be next captain.

 

[FMichael]

To think before Larkin showed up some people were expecting him to be next captain.

 

[Claypool]

To think before Larkin showed up some people were expecting him to be next captain.

No one actually thought this.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

No one actually thought this.

I think some people feared it may happen. I don't think anyone was rooting for it.

 

[kliq]

And he didn't continue his 45+ point production did he? That's what he's saying. It's about the combination of production and contract, not just the contract.

Most of us would still think a 45+ point Abdelkader was overpaid. But that's at least a somewhat tenable contract for that sort of production. 4.2M for 20 points isn't tenable.

100% agree with your first line. Second line, if Abby was still putting up 50 points a year, I dont think you would hear anything about him being overpaid. The bold, 100% agree.

Generally speaking with forwards, I find the expectation of fans is the 10 to 1 rule, 10 points per million. So if a guy is getting paid 4.2 million, the general expectation is 40-50 points. If a guy is getting paid 6mil, roughly 60 points. Abby is 100% overpaid, and of course the term is horrible.

What worries me about Bert, is if he gets 6mil, and is putting up say 40 points, fans will turn on him. I'm hoping they get him at closer to 4-5 mil. He did get 47 points though in 73 games last season, so thats a good start, we'll see.

 

[wingfan]

100% agree with your first line. Second line, if Abby was still putting up 50 points a year, I dont think you would hear anything about him being overpaid. The bold, 100% agree.

Generally speaking with forwards, I find the expectation of fans is the 10 to 1 rule, 10 points per million. So if a guy is getting paid 4.2 million, the general expectation is 40-50 points. If a guy is getting paid 6mil, roughly 60 points. Abby is 100% overpaid, and of course the term is horrible.

What worries me about Bert, is if he gets 6mil, and is putting up say 40 points, fans will turn on him. I'm hoping they get him at closer to 4-5 mil. He did get 47 points though in 73 games last season, so thats a good start, we'll see.

You can worry about Bert and what kind of contract he may get all you want, it still doesn’t change the fact that Bert has shown over the past two seasons skill, upside and the ability to drive offense and put points on the board without riding shotgun to two of the greatest players to play for the Red Wings. Abdelkader never drove offense, he was, without question, a passenger on every top 6 line he has played on.

 

[Gniwder]

You can worry about Bert and what kind of contract he may get all you want, it still doesn’t change the fact that Bert has shown over the past two seasons skill, upside and the ability to drive offense and put points on the board without riding shotgun to two of the greatest players to play for the Red Wings. Abdelkader never drove offense, he was, without question, a passenger on every top 6 line he has played on.

Bert is only as good as his linemates, if Zadina or any of the other prospects drops him down to the second or third line his production is going to suffer. Anything over $5M would be overpayment that he won't be able to live up to, especially on an RFA contract.

 

[kliq]

You can worry about Bert and what kind of contract he may get all you want, it still doesn’t change the fact that Bert has shown over the past two seasons skill, upside and the ability to drive offense and put points on the board without riding shotgun to two of the greatest players to play for the Red Wings. Abdelkader never drove offense, he was, without question, a passenger on every top 6 line he has played on.

Are you under the impression that I have a low opinion of Bertuzzi? Or that I have a high opinion of Abby?

Also, please define “drive offense”. Are you saying he can drive an entire line? Or that he pulls his weight?

 

[Mlotek]

I think some people feared it may happen. I don't think anyone was rooting for it.

When I was working in Michigan from 2012-16, most the Wings fans from in-state were begging for it.

Not to mention Holland has that Michigan fetish that they love all so much.

 

[Gniwder]

When I was working in Michigan from 2012-16, most the Wings fans from in-state were begging for it.

Not to mention Holland has that Michigan fetish that they love all so much.

You must have some strange friends.

I don't have any friends who are Abby fans, even my casual hockey fan friends know he's low skill, even when he was putting up points. The only piano he ever pulled looked like this:

 

[Mlotek]

You must have some strange friends.

I don't have any friends who are Abby fans, even my casual hockey fan friends know he's low skill, even when he was putting up points. The only piano he ever pulled looked like this:

Its a Michigan thing.

And just recall when Abbie got the A after Datsyuk left.

The excitement in the office for him even then was quite real. I was the outlier that didn't like the guy.