Who's the 5th best ever?

[Mrb1p]

Sids the man. 3 way tie at 6 for Hull, Ovi and Jagr.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Jagr is #5 for me.
Maybe even #4.

 

[Sasquatchbreath]

Crosby

Injuries took away from him the chance to pass Howe.

Healthy Crosby wins the 11,12,13, and 15 art Ross trophies along with hart+lindsay combos in 3 of the 4. 07/08 he would have also been closer to the Ross though I think he ends up losing out. His 3 best years were unfortunately riddled with injuries from 11-13

He didn’t do that though. You’re giving him credit for things he never accomplished. If you want to look at it that way then if Jagr never went to Russia then he’d be the undisputed number 5.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Jagr is #5 for me.
Maybe even #4.

Would love to hear his argument for #4 lol

 

[Incognito]

He didn’t do that though. You’re giving him credit for things he never accomplished. If you want to look at it that way then if Jagr never went to Russia then he’d be the undisputed number 5.

The two situations aren't quite parallel. Jagr was 36 when he went to the KHL. He was still great, but he was on the decline (relatively speaking) and his window for winning major NHL awards that would significantly bolster his legacy had closed by then. By contrast, injuries cost Crosby a significant portion of his prime (basically from age 23 to 26), and he would have twice the number of Art Ross and Hart Trophies (not to mention an extra Lindsay and Rocket as well) as he currently does if his luck had simply been better.

 

[jj cale]

I went with Hasek. He is the best goalie I've ever seen and it's not even close imo. The teams he played on in Buffalo were not good but he took them to a cup final regardless. He has the most Vezinas and is the only goalie to win 2 Harts. His later Cups with Detroir cemented his NHL legacy.

In Nagano he took a team that had no place even competing for a medal all the way to gold. After the game Gretzky called him the best player in the game period. That right there says it all. It's hard to rank goalies with positional players but imo I cant see him going any lower than 5th.

I would disagree with the belief of a czech team that had no chance of medaling, they were very much a contender in those days, czech hockey was far stronger then, as evidenced by having players like jagr and hasek on their roster.

Were they the heavy favourite that year? no, but they were very much looked on as a strong contender to medal, even when they won gold it was not shocking. I mean, they were the easily the 3rd best hockey country for quite some time, loooong before the u.s and swedens and finlands of the world became really serious threats in best on bests.

I think you are forgetting just how good they used to be.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Jagr #5 please

NHL records[edit]

These records are as of 27 February 2017 for regular season games unless stated otherwise.

• Most career game-winning goals – 135
• Most career points by a right wing – 1902
• Most career assists by a right wing – 1142
• Most single-season points by a right wing – 149
• Most single-season assists by a right wing – 87
• Most single-season points by a European-born player – 149
• Most single-season assists by a European-born player – 87
• Most career goals by a European-born player – 760
• Most career assists by a European-born player – 1142
• Most career points by a European-born player – 1902
• Most career game-tying goals by a European-born player – 11 (tied with Teemu Selänne)
• Most career shots on goal by a European-born player – 5554
• Most career playoff game-winning goals by a European-born player – 16
• Most consecutive 30-goal seasons (1991–2007) – 15 (shared with Mike Gartner, including the shortened 1994–95 season, 48 games)
• Most consecutive 70-point seasons (15) (including the shortened 1994–95 NHL season, 48 games)
• Longest gap between Stanley Cup Finals appearances – 21 years (1992–2013)
• Only player to play in the Stanley Cup Finals as a teenager and at over 40 years of age
• Oldest player to score 60 points in a season
• Oldest player to score a hat-trick (42 years and 322 days old)
• Most different teams played on by a 1000-point scorer - 9 (tied with Paul Coffey)

Then I'd go Hasek, followed by Sidney.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Would love to hear his argument for #4 lol

I put him up there with Howe for #4.
Both had very long careers and both produced very well into their 40's.
At age 43 Jagr still scored 66 points in the NHL. That's ridiculous.

From 1995 through 2001 Jagr won 5 of 7 Art Ross trophies.
The other two? Mario Lemieux.

2nd all-time in points.

Fifteen consecutive 30-goal seasons. Fifteen!

If you buy into the era-adjusted goals stat, Jagr is the greatest goal scorer of all time, even ahead of Gretzky.

5th all-time in playoff scoring, the other 4 all played for the 80's Oilers.

I feel privileged to have watched his entire career even though he never played for my team and killed them in the 1992 Finals.

 

[bigbabybuda]

I would disagree with the belief of a czech team that had no chance of medaling, they were very much a contender in those days, czech hockey was far stronger then, as evidenced by having players like jagr and hasek on their roster.

Were they the heavy favourite that year? no, but they were very much looked on as a strong contender to medal, even when they won gold it was not shocking. I mean, they were the easily the 3rd best hockey country for quite some time, loooong before the u.s and swedens and finlands of the world became really serious threats in best on bests.

I think you are forgetting just how good they used to be.

I will give you that I may have been a tad hyperbolic in mine assessment of their chance but at best they were the fifth favorite to win gold. Russia, USA and Canada were the top three teams and Sweden was also more highly regarded at the time. I would say 30-1 would have been there odds st best to start tournament. When I get home I'll try and find the odds to back up that statement. They were certainly a talented team with all NhL calaber players and a few HoFers but no where near as deep as the top 3 teams especially. Canada's entire rosters are basically in the HOF and.... anyhow I didnt mean it as a diss to Czech really impressive resume in the history of hockey. I'm old enough to remember them back in their haydar. Just maybe exaggerated outta respect for Hasek. He was a God to me and I hate Buffalo and Chicago kinda lol.

 

[Apotheosis]

Hasek or Jagr for me.

 

[jj cale]

I will give you that I may have been a tad hyperbolic in mine assessment of their chance but at best they were the fifth favorite to win gold. Russia, USA and Canada were the top three teams and Sweden was also more highly regarded at the time. I would say 30-1 would have been there odds st best to start tournament. When I get home I'll try and find the odds to back up that statement. They were certainly a talented team with all NhL calaber players and a few HoFers but no where near as deep as the top 3 teams especially. Canada's entire rosters are basically in the HOF and.... anyhow I didnt mean it as a diss to Czech really impressive resume in the history of hockey. I'm old enough to remember them back in their haydar. Just maybe exaggerated outta respect for Hasek. He was a God to me and I hate Buffalo and Chicago kinda lol.

You are correct, they were probably fifth fave going in.Still, everyone knew they were dangerous just on jagr and hasek alone.I remember when discussing the teams on tsn before the tournament and when it came to the czechs the guy said.."what if jagr scores a beautiful goal and the other team can't buy one all night on hasek? and the guy was right too, any one game against them that could easily happen. And that wasn't all their talent on the team either, the czechs were so much better then, truly one of the hockey powers(i think they won the whc that year to boot!!) they are now a shadow of their former selves, but back then they were a serious contender.

But yes, they were certainly not the favourite going in.

 

[wetcoast]

Gretzky? Yeah, he was a Jet killer but I still respect him.
Mario? He could dream about scoring a goal during his afternoon map and it would appear on the scoreboard before he got to the game.
That Ovechkin guy? Tell you what, one more Rocket Richard Trophy and I'll put him over Bobby Hull.

Why would the guy with 8 Richards need a 9th to be better than a guy who has 7?

Hull has better top 10 finishes to be sure 11-8 but Ovechkin is playing in a more numerically elite atmosphere than Hull ever played in.

Ovechkin has 12 times been a top 10 goals scorer in the NHL, Bobby Hull has 13.

Those are 2 places to start not any more Richards as Ovechkin has proven himself there.

Ironically Ovechkin has 6 Richards consecutively and for a guy who likes Lafleur's 6 year consecutive prime should't Ovi be getting a little more credit for his goal scoring here?

 

[ponder]

Tough! I'd mostly consider:

• Crosby/Jagr (IMO arguable for 4th best forward of all time)
• Lidstrom/Harvey (IMO arguable for 2nd best dman of all time)
• Hasek/Roy (IMO arguable for best goalie of all time)

Ultimately ... damn, very tough. I'll go Crosby, but it's crazy close. I personally give Crosby a very slight edge over Jagr (mostly for playoff performance), and think his impact on the game is slightly higher than the dmen or goalies on this list, but it's super arguable.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I put him up there with Howe for #4.
Both had very long careers and both produced very well into their 40's.
At age 43 Jagr still scored 66 points in the NHL. That's ridiculous.

From 1995 through 2001 Jagr won 5 of 7 Art Ross trophies.
The other two? Mario Lemieux.

2nd all-time in points.

Fifteen consecutive 30-goal seasons. Fifteen!

If you buy into the era-adjusted goals stat, Jagr is the greatest goal scorer of all time, even ahead of Gretzky.

5th all-time in playoff scoring, the other 4 all played for the 80's Oilers.

I feel privileged to have watched his entire career even though he never played for my team and killed them in the 1992 Finals.

Howe shits all over Jagr.

 

[wetcoast]

Would love to hear his argument for #4 lol

There isn't one.

He wasn't as great peak or primewise as Gretzky.

Even Howe had better longevity.

Orr....well Bobby was just so dominant 5 on 5 in terms of tilting the ice and being good at both ends.

Mario would be the obvious choice but Jagr was basically always in Mario's shadow.

It's like the equivalency of argument that Malkin is better than Crosby except even more difficult.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Everyone is wrong. Whoever was the first to ever lace up pair of skates ....and put the puck in the net(by skate, head, mouth..whatever) is by far the best ever and nobody willl ever come close.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Taylor Hall

 

[Pyrophorus]

The Rocket was the 1st #1, then he got supplanted by Orr, Howe, Lemieux and Gretzky.
There are arguments, to move him down further....

 

[psycat]

Between Jagr and Hasek(hard to judge a goalie compared to skaters).

 

[psycat]

Crosby might have a claim for 5th best player but certainly not 5th greatest.

Greatest means accomplishments, personal or team, without considering other factors. That he was injured and missed out on some personal awards affects his greatness.

Hull, Beliveau, Richard, Harvey, Roy and Hasek are all good choices for 5th best.

To me it's actually the opposite he might have a, weak, case for 5th greatest: succesful in winning championships, individual trophies, concistent and very marketed. 5th best? No way with that peak, don't give me half a season peaks because then players like Rantanen would stack up well.

That Crosby is winning this poll just shows the Canadian and recency bias this site often falls into, and then you even have people in the very same thread proclaiming that he doesn't get enough praise? Bonkers.

 

[coo1beans]

It'll probably be mcdavid by the time he is done.

 

[wetcoast]

To me it's actually the opposite he might have a, weak, case for 5th greatest: succesful in winning championships, individual trophies, concistent and very marketed. 5th best? No way with that peak, don't give me half a season peaks because then players like Rantanen would stack up well.

The only person here using a half season peak is you, nice strawman.

That Crosby is winning this poll just shows the Canadian and recency bias this site often falls into, and then you even have people in the very same thread proclaiming that he doesn't get enough praise? Bonkers.

Is it recency or Canadian bias that crosby has played at a top 10 PPG pace for every one of his 15 seasons in the NHL and is the best scorer in both the regular season and playoffs over that time?

That's part of an extremely small list of players.

Put another way what are Crosby's worst 3 seasons? Worst full season?

Then compare that to other players and you see why he has an extremely strong case for 5th.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

I just love the population and non-Canadian players arguments. Gretzky and Lemieux must suck, because they were born before 66 when Canada had a smaller population and there were no non-Canadian players in the NHL before 1990. Go to the HoH and learn.

 

[bobholly39]

It'll probably be mcdavid by the time he is done.

Who knows? He's super talented but such a long way to go, so no telling how high he reaches.

The thing about Crosby that helps him in these discussions is that he has no real weaknesses to his resume. McDavid still has time but for now playoffs are a glaring weakness. Even international resume - not sure he'll get as much opportunity in his career (let alone do as well). Goal scorer? He's a great goal scorer, but Crosby ended up with 2 rockets. Will McDavid? Maybe, maybe not.

I think to be #5 it helps when you have all your bases covered. McDavid still needs a lot of those. Even if his peak ends up one day being slightly better than Crosby - if he still has some weaknesses in his resume it may not overcome Crosby's case at #5.

Outside of Crosby - i find both Beliveau and Roy do well in the "have no weaknesses in their resume" category. Hull isnt bad either. I think thats the most important component to being argued for #5. Unless you have a peak that blows everyone away (like Orr or Lemieux) - but lets not kid ourselves nobody does.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Hull has better top 10 finishes to be sure 11-8 but Ovechkin is playing in a more numerically elite atmosphere than Hull ever played in.

Those tight 60's were pretty "numerically elite".

Why would the guy with 8 Richards need a 9th to be better than a guy who has 7?

The WHA years, when Hull still had a few elite scoring years left, greatly skewed his overall numbers. See Bobby Hull at 34 and 36 look totally dominant against the Red Army and you'd see what I mean. Therefore, I still put him ahead of Ovechkin as the greatest goal scorer of all time. But that's today. Ovechkin seems to have enough in the gas tank to overtake him, but for me, that hasn't happened yet.

...and by the way, I still think Hull was the more complete offensive and defensive forward compared to Ovechkin.