Who's the 5th best ever?

Who's the 5th best ever?

  • Bobby Hull

    Votes: 24 5.6%
  • Jean Beliveau

    Votes: 24 5.6%
  • Patrick Roy

    Votes: 8 1.9%
  • Doug Harvey

    Votes: 6 1.4%
  • Maurice Richard

    Votes: 17 4.0%
  • Ray Bourque

    Votes: 3 0.7%
  • Howie Morenz

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sidney Crosby

    Votes: 105 24.5%
  • Dominik Hasek

    Votes: 93 21.7%
  • Eddie Shore

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Nicklas Lidstrom

    Votes: 21 4.9%
  • Jaromir Jagr

    Votes: 105 24.5%
  • Red Kelly

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Denis Potvin

    Votes: 4 0.9%
  • Jacques Plante

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other. Please post.

    Votes: 18 4.2%

  • Total voters
    429

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,246
10,125
Yes. I'm a fan.

Plus I think it has to be a defenceman what with there being three forwards already in the top five. To make a full starting five, you know.

But still Brad Park is as odd a choice as is Ron Francis.

There are literally at least a dozen Dmen better than Park all time IMO and that's being generous.
 
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daver

Registered User
Apr 4, 2003
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Either of those Czechs are a good vote. Little surprised Crosby is leading this, and that you didn't even include Ovechkin. (not that him or Crosby deserve to be considered #5 ever)

Besides the fact that only Wayne and Howe have more Hart nominations/Top 3 Art Ross placings in NHL history.
 

Not Sure

Registered User
Feb 8, 2016
4,918
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Buffalo
I don’t think Hasek influenced the game enough to be at #5 on the list. Jagr, Lidstrom, or Crosby for me.

Hasek influenced the game plenty. When Hasek was at his peak kids wanted to be goalies because of him. Think about that, kids who used to want to score all the goals and practice stick work till the sun went down decided they'd rather have people shoot pucks at their homemade couch cushion pads. Maybe being from Buffalo my opinion is skewed, but ask other goalies who their hockey heroes are, 99% will say Hasek hands down.

The man is a legend and to this day no one has been able to dominate the way he did, teams literally game planned for a 1-0 victory hoping if they played good enough defense and got lucky they could get one past him. Who else needed to be accounted for 60+ mins a game.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,095
1,381
AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
The poll choices are a copy of the History of Hockey's Top 100 project.
Just thought this part of the original post bears repeating. It's the answer to the question "how is (fill-in-name-of-player-here) not a poll-option?"

Of particular note is the "before-and-after" 5-12 from the Aggregate List (pre-discussion) and Final List (post-discussion) portions of the 'Top-100' project.

Before: 5. Béliveau, 6. Bo. Hull, 7. Harvey, 8. M. Richard, 9. Roy, 10. Bourque, 11. Hašek, 12. Morenz.
After: 5. Bo. Hull, 6. Béliveau, 7. Roy, 8. Harvey, 9. M. Richard, 10. Bourque, 11. Morenz, 12. Crosby.

So--- as we spoke, we lifted Crosby two places (from 14 to 12), and lifted Roy two places (from 9 to 7). Speaking for myself, I found the Roy arguments persuasive. I went in considering Hull to be #5- and exited making the same judgement.

Can't really go wrong with Hull, Roy, Harvey, or Béliveau in that Five Slot.

Little surprised Crosby is leading this
At the time of this typing:

Current leader=the player currently active
Current 2nd place=the next most recently active player
Current 3rd place=the next most recently active player after those two...

I'll go out on a limb and say that I think I see a pattern here---
 
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DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
Aug 25, 2017
7,561
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Melonville
Not even close
You see, if you said..."Yeah, it's a close one, but my guy is better because (states case)" I'd buy it. But by using the phrase "Not even close", your opinion loses all credibility. Tell you what, let me know who your guy is, I'll make a simple one sentence case for you that you can use for future debates so you don't have to say "not even close" again. ;)
 
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Midnight Judges

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You see, if you said..."Yeah, it's a close one, but my guy is better because (states case)" I'd buy it. But by using the phrase "Not even close", your opinion loses all credibility. Tell you what, let me know who your guy is, I'll make a simple one sentence case for you that you can use for future debates so you don't have to say "not even close" again. ;)

Some Canadians can't even bring themselves to say the name.

The hate is strong in this one.
 

DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
Aug 25, 2017
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Some Canadians can't even bring themselves to say the name.

The hate is strong in this one.
Gretzky? Yeah, he was a Jet killer but I still respect him.
Mario? He could dream about scoring a goal during his afternoon map and it would appear on the scoreboard before he got to the game.
That Ovechkin guy? Tell you what, one more Rocket Richard Trophy and I'll put him over Bobby Hull.
 

Perfect_Drug

Registered User
Mar 24, 2006
15,383
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Montreal
Today I'll say Hasek.

Other days I'll say Belliveau or Jagr

Occasionally I think it might be Bourque or Lidstrom.

Eventually Crosby and Ovechkin will likely enter that convo in my mind. We'll see.
 

bambamcam4ever

107 and counting
Feb 16, 2012
14,301
6,344
Just thought this part of the original post bears repeating. It's the answer to the question "how is (fill-in-name-of-player-here) not a poll-option?"

Of particular note is the "before-and-after" 5-12 from the Aggregate List (pre-discussion) and Final List (post-discussion) portions of the 'Top-100' project.

Before: 5. Béliveau, 6. Bo. Hull, 7. Harvey, 8. M. Richard, 9. Roy, 10. Bourque, 11. Hašek, 12. Morenz.
After: 5. Bo. Hull, 6. Béliveau, 7. Roy, 8. Harvey, 9. M. Richard, 10. Bourque, 11. Morenz, 12. Crosby.

So--- as we spoke, we lifted Crosby two places (from 14 to 12), and lifted Roy two places (from 9 to 7). Speaking for myself, I found the Roy arguments persuasive. I went in considering Hull to be #5- and exited making the same judgement.

Can't really go wrong with Hull, Roy, Harvey, or Béliveau in that Five Slot.

At the time of this typing:

Current leader=the player currently active
Current 2nd place=the next most recently active player
Current 3rd place=the next most recently active player after those two...

I'll go out on a limb and say that I think I see a pattern here---
The pattern being the HOH board vastly overrates O6 era players? I agree.
 
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Say Hey Kid

it's better to burn out than to fade awa
Dec 10, 2007
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The pattern being the HOH board vastly overrates O6 era players? I agree.
RankPlayerPositionBornNationBirth City
1Wayne GretzkyC1961CanadaBrantford, Ontario
2Gordie HoweRW1928CanadaFloral, Saskatchewan
3Bobby OrrD1948CanadaParry Sound, Ontario
4Mario LemieuxC1965CanadaMontreal, Quebec
5Bobby HullLW1939CanadaPoint Anne, Ontario
6Jean BeliveauC1931CanadaTrois-Rivieres, Quebec
7Patrick RoyG1965CanadaQuebec City, Quebec
8Doug HarveyD1924CanadaMontreal, Quebec
9Maurice RichardRW1921CanadaMontreal, Quebec
10Ray BourqueD1960CanadaSaint-Laurent, Quebec
11Howie MorenzC1902CanadaMitchell, Ontario
12Sidney CrosbyC1987CanadaHalifax, Nova Scotia
13Dominik HasekG1965Czech RepublicPardubice, Czechoslovakia
14Eddie ShoreD1902CanadaFort Qu'Appelle, Northwest Territories
15Nicklas LidstromD1970SwedenKrylbo, Sweden
16Jaromir JagrRW1972Czech RepublicKladno, Czechoslovakia
17Red KellyD / C1927CanadaSimcoe, Ontario
18Denis PotvinD1953CanadaVanier, Ontario
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
You are so right. They really underrate the post-O6 players. :rolleyes: I posted this chart in the OP.
 
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Midnight Judges

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The pattern being the HOH board vastly overrates O6 era players? I agree.

The predominant opinion in the history forum is that old Canada with a population of 9,000,000 people produced way better hockey players than current Canada with a population of 36,000,000 people plus the USA plus Europe plus Russia.
 

Say Hey Kid

it's better to burn out than to fade awa
Dec 10, 2007
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The predominant opinion in the history forum is that old Canada with a population of 9,000,000 people produced way better hockey players than current Canada with a population of 36,000,000 people plus the USA plus Europe plus Russia.
Really sad logic here. Gretzky was born way back in 61 and has more assists than anyone else has points. It's sad that I have to explain this, but quantity does not = quality.
 

Midnight Judges

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Really sad logic here. Gretzky was born way back in 61 and has more assists than anyone else has points. It's sad that I have to explain this, but quantity does not = quality.

What does Gretzky have to do with my post?

I was talking about O6 players and how the history forum thinks 5-7 players from the 50s and 60s are all superior to every player from the 2000s and 2010s despite the talent pool being several hundred percent larger.
 

JimmyTwoTimes

Registered User
Apr 13, 2010
19,958
5,281
:help: Gretzky, Howe, Jagr, and Hull are top four in goals.

While taking way less shots. Has anyone other than OV taken over 5500 shots? Mario with 3500 and over 200 less games played...more goals(only guy near top in points who played less than 1000 games played period. Next is Stastny then Crosby...1.292 ppg.

Hull shot alot...thought for sure hed be close...but he even fell short of 5000 shots.

OV great goal scorer...but constantly remember fans of caps(analysts, etc) talking about him costing them their playoff lossses with his one and done shots...leading to odd man rushes the other way. He finally gets his one cup and now some want to put him on same level as Sid who won 3 and put up better numbers? With grinders as wingers most of his career, not Backstrom feeding him perfect passes. While also playing way less games...and having to come back from serious concussions. When everyone thought he was done. Not trying to downplay OV, but bringing this up to put things in perspective. They were Diff players...but one was a huge reason the Pens won 3(not to mention beating the 2009 Wings who were unstoppable at the time...as a 20 year old...he didn't have a stacked team...was him and Malkin. Wings had to put their top 3 players on Sid. But that aside..I dont see any other young teams like that beating a dominant team like the Wings.

Goes thru the BS injuries that ruined his peak but still came back and scored over 100 a year. Went 4 years scoring under 100..."he was done"...ends up winning 2 more cups(and Conn Smythes) along with 100 points last year.

And in this era...hes averaging 1.292 ppg
That's a great accomplishment in itself.

Btw , when I talk about OV shooting that much....I wish Sid wouldn't have been(and still is) the type that wants to be that perfect team player and passed up as many shots as he did. Hed have at least 100 more goals based on passing up a quality chance to score only to pass it over to a winger with no hands. The only thing thats ever annoyed me about him. So id love if Sid had more OV in him. Honestly think they could have both met more in the middle when it comes to that. OV a better passer than given credit for and Sid could have scored way more each year if he chose to be more "selfish". And yeah while OV did shoot too much during Caps cup runs....2018 id say he had to do that for them to win. They just messed up back when they were the top team throughout 2010-16 not going with a diff strategy. All teams did was focus on him cuz Caps didnt have many other threats to score. Backstrom could have provided more of that. But anyway, 2018 they finally got some depth scoring and OV was allowed to do his thing...couldnt be stopped even tho they knew it was coming.



Anyway look at the games played by Lemieux(915 yet the amount of pts he scored. Crazy how close he would have been to Gretzky. Not just the amount of games...but also playing injured, sick, etc....took a toll. Still averaged 1.883 ppg. Before he came back at an older age to get the Crosby era started....Mario was the only one ever to avg over 2 ppg. Higher than Wayne).

Yeah...."that doesnt matter...have to actually put up the numbers...." Is the usual excuse....which is why we always have these arguments. I bring stufff like that up cuz i wanted to see what would have happened..."IF". Same as I do with Barry Sanders and the all time rushing record. Ken Griffey Jr and his HR total if he didnt keep getting hurt.

Doesnt mean the other guys who did stay healthy dont deserve credit. Since as a Pens fan I know how hard that is to stay healthy...let alone putting up great numbers as well. Pens fans have been spoiled with having Stars...but bad luck with injuries. While others have full seasons throughout their career. Its Hockeys way of evening things out a bit...I guess.

NHL All-Time Points Leaders


Mario's totals are crazy. And as a Sid fan....Huge rival of McDavid but I still want to see him play a fully healthy career to see what he could end up with. Already a shame we didnt get to see Mario and Sid with more(tho the non pens fans Im sure couldnt care less.....the 5 cup wins do help those 2 not reaching their max total due to injuries). For me its not about arguing who is better....i just want to see Something done that stands out above the rest. And Mario would have been the only one to challenge Gretzky. Sid "could" have had 130-140 pts the year he got hurt. 40 games played with 32g 34a....I keep hearing " he wouldnt have kept that up" but he did the year before...he did the two years after. It was his peak years. So why wouldn't he have? Lets say he doesnt get those exact numbers for next 41 games...he still would have gotten close...say...28g 30a for example which still would have been 60g 64a. So that was taken away period. And Sid haters keep bringing up he only won 2 ART Rosses. When it was obvious he would have won more. Same as if OV missed 30 games and didnt win the Rocket when we all know he would have most years if he missed the time Sid did. No need to downplay what Sid could have done when we already missed out on it anyway. It obviously didn't happen...doesnt count. Pens fans just bring it up cuz it would have been great to see. And we already went thru Mario missing out on shit like that(yeah I know...Weve had it hard lol). And always hearing others knock him for "only 2 ARTs". The most ridiculous Sid argument Ive seen on here. Bound to get some snarky comments from Pens fans.
 
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SympathyForTheDevils

Registered User
Feb 22, 2010
1,021
1,020
Quebec City
The predominant opinion in the history forum is that old Canada with a population of 9,000,000 people produced way better hockey players than current Canada with a population of 36,000,000 people plus the USA plus Europe plus Russia.

Congratulations for stating the obvious. But judging players for what they did against their peers is still the only way to build such a list. Else why not just pull up last year's Hart voting nominees? Since hockey progress always marchs onward, 2019 was theoretically the best year ever for hockey, so congratulations to Brad Marchand for being the 5th best hockey player ever!

Sorry that the basic idea of history is getting in the way of people praising your favorite player.

With that said, Ovechkin really should be an option in this poll, even if he shouldn't win it.
 

JimmyTwoTimes

Registered User
Apr 13, 2010
19,958
5,281
What does Gretzky have to do with my post?

I was talking about O6 players and how the history forum thinks 5-7 players from the 50s and 60s are all superior to every player from the 2000s and 2010s despite the talent pool being several hundred percent larger.

Finally agree with Midnight? 1st time out of 29670 posts.....
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,056
13,985
Congratulations for stating the obvious. But judging players for what they did against their peers is still the only way to build such a list. Else why not just pull up last year's Hart voting nominees? Since hockey progress always marchs onward, 2019 was theoretically the best year ever for hockey, so congratulations to Brad Marchand for being the 5th best hockey player ever!

Sorry that the basic idea of history is getting in the way of people praising your favorite player.

With that said, Ovechkin really should be an option in this poll, even if he shouldn't win it.

The HOH Top 100 list features a disproportionate number of modern players - especially in the top half of the list. Look at the number of players active in the 1990s alone (ten years) to the number active in the Original Six era (which spanned 24 seasons). It's plainly obvious that there are more modern players than O6 players (which I think is perfectly justified).

Like I said, this should be obvious to anyone looking at the list, but I'll post some data later when I have time.
 

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