Who would replace AV?

[Redpath]

What has Fletcher done to indicate he's evolved?

His mindless pursuit of Prosser, Thompson, and Stewart is the exact opposite of good GMing or of good team-building processes. Hiring Lappy and standing by the entire intact coaching staff is the opposite of what is good.

We've gone through this circle too already. Overrating fringe players is a mindless hockey-guy thing that even good GMs are frustratingly guilty of.

"But Prosser/Thompson/Stewart!" is the even worse, less important version of "Our defense sucks because Hagg gets 6D minutes." This team isn't bad because a hockey guy let a fringe player gets 6 games on a bad defense.

This summer is going to be what seals Chuck's fate for me. The fringe extra forward moves are not a measuring stick for a rebuilding GM, rather how he manages the actual core of the team.

 

[Beef Invictus]

We've gone through this circle too already. Overrating fringe players is a mindless hockey-guy thing that even good GMs are frustratingly guilty of.

"But Prosser/Thompson/Stewart!" is the even worse, less important version of "Our defense sucks because Hagg gets 6D minutes." This team isn't bad because a hockey guy let a fringe player gets 6 games on a bad defense.

This summer is going to be what seals Chuck's fate for me. The fringe extra forward moves are not a measuring stick for a rebuilding GM, rather how he manages the actual core of the team.

This team is bad in part because lots of terrible players are shoehorned into an NHL they don't belong in. It's a multifaceted problem. All facets must be addressed. Everything matters. It isn't the 90s where inefficiency can be overcome by buying sheer power.

Hagg matters. Stewart matters. Prosser matters. Keeping all the coaches matters. What matters the most is the incompetent process behind them, because that incompetent thinking is at the root of the whole roster. It's a foundation built on sloth shit.

 

[Redpath]

This team is bad in part because lots of terrible players are shoehorned into an NHL they don't belong in. It's a multifaceted problem. All facets must be addressed. Everything matters. It isn't the 90s where inefficiency can be overcome by buying sheer power.

"Everything matters" in the sense that Fletcher inherited a burning house and you're complaining about a leaky faucet.

And we absolutely could overcome the inefficiency of Nate Prosser playing a whopping 6 games if we actually had the team to do it.

 

[tucson83]

We've gone through this circle plenty of times before. Maybe Fletcher doesn't put it together. But writing off any GM based off their first tenure is wrong.

Rutherford took an eternity to win his first Cup. Dean Lombardi and Doug Armstrong were retread losers.

Noted worst GM in the league Pete Chiarelli is a Cup winner. Shero hasn't been able to replicate his success without inheriting two generational talents. Dave Poile has been praised for his work as GM despite being the longest tenured loser in the league. It is not nearly as black and white as you try to make it seem.

and buffalo just hires guys with no good track record gm/coach and it's a disaster every single year.

 

[Beef Invictus]

"Everything matters" in the sense that Fletcher inherited a burning house and you're complaining about a leaky faucet.

And we absolutely could overcome the inefficiency of Nate Prosser playing a whopping 6 games if we actually had the team to do it.

Purposefully playing ECHL players over superior options isn't a leaky faucet, that's trying to put out the fire by throwing fuel into it in the hopes it'll get tired of burning.

A man who thinks adding these players to the roster is good is not a man capable of building a winning team. He's not someone capable of working the margins to find those efficient value players like successful teams do. And let's not forget he was hired on the recommendation same incompetent Loser Trust that has brought us the last 3 decades of not-winning. What a great idea it is to continuously let the same group fail repeatedly. I'm sure it'll work this time. The definition of sanity is "keep doing the thing that doesn't work," right?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Also, managing the core isn't that important. Lots of teams have good cores. We have a good core. The trick is building around that core. The depth you add. He's been incompetent as f*** at that. A true Flyers tradition going back to Clarke, who is absolutely pathetic as a manager.

 

[Redpath]

Purposefully playing ECHL players over superior options isn't a leaky faucet, that's trying to put out the fire by throwing fuel into it in the hopes it'll get tired of burning.

A man who thinks adding these players to the roster is good is not a man capable of building a winning team. He's not someone capable of working the margins to find those efficient value players like successful teams do. And let's not forget he was hired on the recommendation same incompetent Loser Trust that has brought us the last 3 decades of not-winning. What a great idea it is to continuously let the same group fail repeatedly. I'm sure it'll work this time. The definition of sanity is "keep doing the thing that doesn't work," right?

You're vastly overrating the impact that the fringe players have on the team, especially when they weren't even roster main-stays. Can it be improved upon? Of course. Is it why the team sucks, even remotely? Obviously not. I don't like having a leaky faucet either. 6 games from Nate Prosser this year did not move the needle

Who were the losers that hired Stan Bowman, Pete Chiarelli, Dean Lombardi, and Doug Armstrong? They were all loser franchises that hadn't won in decades. And furthermore, which losers hired them? And the losers before them? How could they have possibly won a Cup if they were hired by losers? Do you agree that this is an infallible way to evaluate GMs?

 

[Redpath]

Also, managing the core isn't that important. Lots of teams have good cores. We have a good core. The trick is building around that core. The depth you add. He's been incompetent as f*** at that. A true Flyers tradition going back to Clarke, who is absolutely pathetic as a manager.

We can just stop here. That is the premise of my whole argument. "We have a good core" is highly debatable at this stage of their development.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You're vastly overrating the impact that the fringe players have on the team, especially when they weren't even roster main-stays. Can it be improved upon? Of course. Is it why the team sucks, even remotely? Obviously not. I don't like having a leaky faucet either. 6 games from Nate Prosser this year did not move the needle

Who were the losers that hired Stan Bowman, Pete Chiarelli, Dean Lombardi, and Doug Armstrong? They were all loser franchises that hadn't won in decades. And furthermore, which losers hired them? And the losers before them? How could they have possibly won a Cup if they were hired by losers? Do you agree that this is an infallible way to evaluate GMs?

You're vastly underrating how important depth surrounding the core is. A guy who thinks Thompson is a solution, or goes out of his way to add non-NHL players, is not a guy who knows how to build around the core group. Can he change? Sure. Has he yet? No.

This team is not hiring anyone capable to pursuing a modern, winning mindset until they purge themselves and escape the rut they live in. Clarke and Holmgren f***ing suck. Scourges on the franchise. Get them and all their little loser cronies gone. Detroit and Boston and LA were all teams that completely revamped and redesigned themselves with bold and efficient moves. That's not the Flyers. It's definitely not Fletcher, who has to lose value in every move he makes. The Flyers are all about living in a cowardly quagmire and living in their countryclub circle-jerk.

 

[Beef Invictus]

We can just stop here. That is the premise of my whole argument. "We have a good core" is highly debatable at this stage of their development.

It isn't, though. We've watched this core, when given the opportunity, drag a ton of slop and terrible decision making to the playoffs. If only they had help from coaches and their GM, instead of wasting their whole primes.

What did Fletcher ever build in Minnesota? The biggest pieces he acquired only fell into his lap because two friends decided to pull a Lebron. He had nothing to do with that. And what did he build around his core? Ah yes...disappointment. Annual disappointment. Easy to see why Clarke and Homer like him and advised Scott to hire him. That's the kind of mediocrity they live for in their complacent, idiotic old age.

 

[renberg]

Right now my main concern put the Flyer's FO is this: who is in charge? On paper its Fletcher but by the looks of things to me its AV and has been since he's come here. Obviously there needs to be a working relationship between the GM and the HC but Vigneault has a clever way of making failure always due to someone else's fault. Fletcher needs to be hip to this. His coach is throwing banana peels every where the GM walks.

 

[Redpath]

You're vastly underrating how important depth surrounding the core is. A guy who thinks Thompson is a solution, or goes out of his way to add non-NHL players, is not a guy who knows how to build around the core group. Can he change? Sure. Has he yet? No.

This team is not hiring anyone capable to pursuing a modern, winning mindset until they purge themselves and escape the rut they live in. Clarke and Holmgren f***ing suck. Scourges on the franchise. Get them and all their little loser cronies gone. Detroit and Boston and LA were all teams that completely revamped and redesigned themselves with bold and efficient moves. That's not the Flyers. The Flyers are all about living in a cowardly quagmire and living in their countryclub circle-jerk.

Boston and LA revamped and redesigned themselves? How is that possible? Jeremy Jacobs, Bruins owner since 1975 and then noted-loser, hired Pete Chiarelli, who is now regarded as among the worst GMs in the business. Dean Lomardi revamped and redesigned the Kings? Impossible! He never showed such potential during his tenure with the Sharks! He played Shawn Heins for 17 games in 2001 after all.

It isn't, though. We've watched this core, when given the opportunity, drag a ton of slop and terrible decision making to the playoffs. If only they had help from coaches and their GM, instead of wasting their whole primes.

What did Fletcher ever build in Minnesota? The biggest pieces he acquired only fell into his lap because two friends decided to pull a Lebron. He had nothing to do with that. And what did he build around his core? Ah yes...disappointment. Annual disappointment. Easy to see why Clarke and Homer like him and advised Scott to hire him. That's the kind of mediocrity they live for in their complacent, idiotic old age.

Which core are we talking about? I'm not knocking Giroux or Voracek or Couturier. The core we've been rebuilding for over the past decade has not shown their potential to actually be a core that can be built around

 

[Beef Invictus]

Boston and LA revamped and redesigned themselves? How is that possible? Jeremy Jacobs, Bruins owner since 1975 and then noted-loser, hired Pete Chiarelli, who is now regarded as among the worst GMs in the business. Dean Lomardi revamped and redesigned the Kings? Impossible! He never showed such potential during his tenure with the Sharks! He played Shawn Heins for 17 games in 2001 after all.

LA disappointed and they made bold moves to reshape the team and win Cups. Boston was swept by us in a massive disappointment and they retooled and have been annually strong since. They won a Cup. Detroit went balls to the wall and took flyers on a bunch of old ex-Soviets and Europeans to construct arguably the strongest team ever.

The Flyers face disappointment and respond by signing trash players, carrying on as usual, and following the same loser practices they always have. Wake me up when they change. Believing they'll magically, suddenly change is fruitless at this point. We are not Boston, Detroit, or LA. We are worse. Complacent, boring, lazy, and toxically insular.

Which core are we talking about? I'm not knocking Giroux or Voracek or Couturier. The core we've been rebuilding for over the past decade has not shown their potential to actually be a core that can be built around

Well, Voracek/Couturier/Giroux are still our core. And if the future has been this badly scouted out, drafted, and developed, then everyone with any hand in that process should be gone. They aren't. Aside from Hextall and Pryor they're all right here. Lappy was rewarded for his failure with a promotion! That's not quite like LA completely reshaping themselves or Boston going "never again" or Detroit building a GOAT team. No sign that any of that will be changing any time soon.

 

[Redpath]

LA disappointed and they made bold moves to reshape the team and win Cups. Boston was swept by us in a massive disappointment and they retooled and have been annually strong since. They won a Cup. Detroit went balls to the wall and took flyers on a bunch of old ex-Soviets and Europeans to construct arguably the strongest team ever.

The Flyers face disappointment and respond by signing trash players, carrying on as usual, and following the same loser practices they always have. Wake me up when they change. Believing they'll magically, suddenly change is fruitless at this point. We are not Boston, Detroit, or LA. We are worse. Complacent, boring, lazy, and toxically insular.

Well, Voracek/Couturier/Giroux are still our core. And if the future has been this badly scouted out, drafted, and developed, then everyone with any hand in that process should be gone. They aren't. Aside from Hextall and Pryor they're all right here. Lappy was rewarded for his failure with a promotion! That's not quite like LA completely reshaping themselves or Boston going "never again" or Detroit building a GOAT team. No sign that any of that will be changing any time soon.

You're ignoring the point. How could LA reshape their team with a loser GM that even continued to play keep, acquire, and play bad players such as Kevin Westgarth and Raitas Ivanas? How could Jeremy Jacobs hire someone to successful re-tool the team if he himself was a loser? Your logic is faulty

I'd say Hextall and Pryor had their fingerprints significantly more on their core than any of the other secondary personnel. But if this era fails, then yeah, sure, I hope we burn down the scouting operation.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You're ignoring the point. How could LA reshape their team with a loser GM that even continued to play keep, acquire, and play bad players such as Kevin Westgarth and Raitas Ivanas? How could Jeremy Jacobs hire someone to successful re-tool the team if he himself was a loser? Your logic is faulty

I'd say Hextall and Pryor had their fingerprints significantly more on their core than any of the other secondary personnel. But if this era fails, then yeah, sure, I hope we burn down the scouting operation.

Fletcher has proven himself incompetent at taking drastic and effective action. It's a far bigger change for him than for the others.

Keeping this whole coaching staff intact is the most pathetic move possible. That's our GM.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

This guy really thinks he is being clever and outwitting all of us, doesn't he?

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

and buffalo just hires guys with no good track record gm/coach and it's a disaster every single year.

One of the reasons I love Hextall so much is that he has a track record.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's also worth pointing out that Boston enjoys some kind of blessed luck that is the antithesis of Flyers luck.

 

[BernieParent]

While the coach is a dummy...there are some structural flaws with the roster no doubt. It is why we are in deep doodoo with our dummy FO. I am sure though they will move the needle just enough for the status quo to continue on and then the wheels will fall off again and we'll arrive at the Flyers 50th anniversary cup win year. They will market all sorts of paraphernalia...send Gritty out on promotions and trot out the Broad Street Beer Bellies and old tehnicolor videos of their last cup victory...

Don't forget the Rage Room.

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

It's also worth pointing out that Boston enjoys some kind of blessed luck that is the antithesis of Flyers luck.

Luckily for the rest of us, they shot themselves in both feet and their right knee in 2015. The thought of their current team plus even just two of Barzal/Connor/Chabot/Boeser is legitimately terrifying.

 

[deadhead]

Hagg matters. Stewart matters. Prosser matters. Keeping all the coaches matters. What matters the most is the incompetent process behind them, because that incompetent thinking is at the root of the whole roster. It's a foundation built on sloth shit.

No, they don't.
They're the symptom, not the disease (lack of depth).
As organizational depth improves, these kind of players become history.

A bigger issue which Beef consistently ignores, is the failure of players like Vorobyev to be even passable (softest big forward I've ever seen), or why Bunnaman can't develop a modicum of offensive skills, 0r why NAK regressed so badly this year, why Friedman couldn't take the next step.

Could be development, could be scouts over sold some prospects.

But if these marginal prospects stepped up there would be no Stewart or Prosser, NAK had a chance to take the job in TC, Bunnaman should have been the 4C this year, building on last spring, Friedman should have outplayed Prosser and so on.

Now some is bad luck, every organization that has a string of bad luck tends to find itself scrapping the bottom of the barrel.
If Frost is healthy, Lindblom doesn't have cancer and Patrick the migraines, we don't even know Andreoff exists last season.
If Ghost doesn't blow an ACL, then a groin, then arthroscopic surgery on both knees, he's a permanent fixture in the top 4.
If Morin doesn't blow out both ACLs, he's #6, Braun isn't resigned and Hagg is buried on the bench.

And some is crap happens. Hart went south, you can blame anyone you want, but goalies do that, look around the league, was Murray ruined in Pittsburgh or is he just a head case?

 

[Flyerfan4life]

I vote for Olly from "On the bench". It can't be worse than Hak.

cue AV plays with nipples gif here..

@Captain Dave Poulin

 

[Flyerfan4life]

This team is bad in part because lots of terrible players are shoehorned into an NHL they don't belong in. It's a multifaceted problem. All facets must be addressed. Everything matters. It isn't the 90s where inefficiency can be overcome by buying sheer power.

Hagg matters. Stewart matters. Prosser matters. Keeping all the coaches matters. What matters the most is the incompetent process behind them, because that incompetent thinking is at the root of the whole roster. It's a foundation built on sloth shit.

this is sooo godam fitting....

 

[Beef Invictus]

Luckily for the rest of us, they shot themselves in both feet and their right knee in 2015. The thought of their current team plus even just two of Barzal/Connor/Chabot/Boeser is legitimately terrifying.

And yet STILL they made the Finals. They've had some brain numbing moves that just never seem to really bite them like they should.

Going forward as the team ages out, that draft should finally do it. In theory. Or Bergeron, Krejci, and Marchand will play at a high level into their late 40s, whatever.

 

[Rebels57]

I'd love to have seen the reaction from this board if we had hired Pete DeBoer in 2019 instead of AV. Meanwhile DeBoer, noted retread loser who has never won anything, is in his second consecutive conference final and quite possibly on a way to a Cup.

And that isn't even an endorsement of DeBoer! He took over a great team. Turns out having a good roster is a bit helpful

DeBoer took an awful Devils team to the Cup in 2012 and again took the Sharks to the Cup in 2016. He's going to now take the 3rd team he's coached in a row to the Cup when Vegas walks over Montreal.

Coachs need to grow over the years and adapt to the way the game is being played. Some are capable. Some are not. It appears DeBoer is capable. It appears AV is not. Not really that complicated.