Who would replace AV?

[Ghosts Beer]

i dont understand how anyone who watched last season can sit back and think both Moose and Hart forgot how to hockey at the same time..

AVs godam system was sooo bad.. aint no goalie in history could survive in that net, and put up winning numbers..

There have been a hell of a lot of bad defenses in the NHL over the years, many allegedly bad coaches & systems. When your team has the worst team save percentage the NHL has seen in around 25 years, it’s more than just “duh system!” It damn sure means the goalies sucked.

I mean, the Flyers aren’t an expansion team. They had the 6th best record in the NHL the season prior. They shouldn’t suddenly put up historically bad goaltending numbers with essentially the same team & coaches without the goalies being at fault. And the eye test alone showed Hart couldn’t stop a beach ball & Elliott couldn’t handle being the #1 in a cramped season.

 

[deadhead]

Many of them sure were.

No, they weren't. There's a lot of mythologizing over a bad season.

Nobody was putrid, some players struggled, Provorov was off, Myers had too many mistakes, NAK definitely regressed, Laughton was literally a shadow of himself after COVID, Patric had a combination of shootist interruptist and horrible puck luck.

But when you look at team metrics, you have a middle of the pack team pulled down by bad goalie play.

ES
GF/60: 12th
GA/60: 26th
xGF/60: 23rd
xGA/60: 12th
HDCA/60: 12th
Sv% 31st

PP
GF/60: 19th
xGF/60: 17th

PK
GA/60: 30th
xGF/60: 20th
HDCA/60: 23th
Sv% 31st

2019-20:
GF: 8th
GA: 7th
xGF: 6th
xGA: 5th
HDCA: 7th
Sv% 16th

PP
GF: 9th
xGF: 20th

PK
GA: 10th
xGA; 7th
HDCA: 10th
Sv%: 4th

 

[Ghosts Beer]

No, they weren't. There's a lot of mythologizing over a bad season.

Nobody was putrid, some players struggled, Provorov was off, Myers had too many mistakes, NAK definitely regressed, Laughton was literally a shadow of himself after COVID, Patric had a combination of shootist interruptist and horrible puck luck.

But when you look at team metrics, you have a middle of the pack team pulled down by bad goalie play.

ES
GF/60: 12th
GA/60: 26th
xGF/60: 23rd
xGA/60: 12th
HDCA/60: 12th
Sv% 31st

PP
GF/60: 19th
xGF/60: 17th

PK
GA/60: 30th
xGF/60: 20th
HDCA/60: 23th
Sv% 31st

2019-20:
GF: 8th
GA: 7th
xGF: 6th
xGA: 5th
HDCA: 7th
Sv% 16th

PP
GF: 9th
xGF: 20th

PK
GA: 10th
xGA; 7th
HDCA: 10th
Sv%: 4th

They didn't even have a defenseman who stood out clearly worthy as the team's best defenseman.

Hart sucked. Elliott was lousy. Patrick sucked. Myers sucked. Sanheim was well below expectations. Provorov was below expectations. Konecny was below expectations. Hayes was below expectations. Lindblom had an excuse, but was lousy. NAK was lousy. Gus was lousy. JVR was great early and lousy his last 30 games. And a bunch of other players were "meh."

 

[Beef Invictus]

2015-16: 22nd in GF
2016-17: 20th in GF
2017-18: 13th, after trading Schenn, with Filppula, Patrick (19), Raffl and Weal in your top 9.

Carried by PP and herculean efforts by the core. They sucked at ES as they played a perimeter nonsense system.

 

[deadhead]

Carried by PP. They sucked at ES as they played a perimeter nonsense system.

2015-16: 22nd in ES scoring
2016-17: 23rd in ES scoring
2017-18: 11th in ES scoring

moving G to LW with Couts, adding TK, and Ghost having his career year explains the jump in scoring.

They only had 4 top six forwards, G, Couts, Voracek, TK, (Simmonds and his 28 ES points was a 3rd line guy), and a bunch of marginal forwards in Filppula, Patrick (19), Raffl, Weal, Laughton, Weiss, Lehtera. Lindblom played 23 games as a rookie.

So it's hard to make the claim that Hakstol held back their scoring, that "perimeter nonsense system" got a lot of scoring out of defensemen (41 goals).

Those just weren't very talented teams.

 

[Beef Invictus]

2015-16: 22nd in ES scoring
2016-17: 23rd in ES scoring
2017-18: 11th in ES scoring

moving G to LW with Couts, adding TK, and Ghost having his career year explains the jump in scoring.

They only had 4 top six forwards, G, Couts, Voracek, TK, (Simmonds and his 28 ES points was a 3rd line guy), and a bunch of marginal forwards in Filppula, Patrick (19), Raffl, Weal, Laughton, Weiss, Lehtera. Lindblom played 23 games as a rookie.

So it's hard to make the claim that Hakstol held back their scoring, that "perimeter nonsense system" got a lot of scoring out of defensemen (41 goals).

Those just weren't very talented teams.

It's really easy to make the claim that Hakstol held back their scoring, because he did.

Shots from far do not go in. We had shooting distances from the moon. Imagine how much better our offense would have been.

 

[Tripod]

i dont understand how anyone who watched last season can sit back and think both Moose and Hart forgot how to hockey at the same time..

AVs godam system was sooo bad.. aint no goalie in history could survive in that net, and put up winning numbers..

Except that's not totally true.

On March the 3rd, here were the goalies stats:
Hart: 13 games, 6w, 4l, 3otl .893 SV% 3,49 GAA
Elliott: 6 games, 5-1 .931 SV%, 2.03 GAA

So 7 weeks into the season, Elliot was doing his job and playing well as a backup. Then in March, Elliott was forced into starting 9 games(more than Hart).

All of March....Hart had ZERO games with a SV% over .890. NOT ONE. Not in 8 starts. Not in 2 relief appearances. His stats for the month were 2-6-0 .815 SV%, 5.04GAA

For Elliott March 4-25th: 2-3-1 .825 SV% 4.01 GAA
His other 3 starts he had a .960(great), .906(ok, good enough), .750(bad got pulled)...we went 2-1 which matches how he played.

In April, Hart played 5 games and was 1-2-2 ,910SV%, 2.31 GAA-obviously a big improvement over March
Elliott's games were: .931(great), .938(great), .813(awful), .964(fantastic), .943(fantastic), .906(ok, good enough), .808(bad)...so 4 great starts, 1 ok, 2 bad....and it matches his record 4-2-1.

In May, Elliott had 2 good starts, 2 bad ones: .920, 9.33 .810, 800

In total, Elliott got into 30 games(too much on a 56 game season) and had:
13 with a .917 SV% or more....so almost half the time post good to fantastic starts
15 with a .906 SV% or m0re...so half posting not bad to fantastic starts
16 with a .900SV% or more...so over half posting winnable to fantastic starts

Elliott played as most backups do...but played well in more than half, then dogshit the other. The issue was that the bad games were so bad, we had no chance to win:

.931 SV% 2.01 GAA in 15 wins
.809 SV% 5.01 GAA in 9 losses
.938 SV% 1.43 GAA in 2 OTL

Hart was similar in us having no chance to win in losses
.927 SV% 2.80 GAA in 9 wins
.809 SV% 5.63 GAA in 11 loses
.911 SV% 2.64 GAA in 5 OTL

It's crazy how bad, the bad ones became. But it's not like every game was like that as I showed. We had lots of great games too. The bad were jsut SO bad and memorable.

 

[deadhead]

It's really easy to make the claim that Hakstol held back their scoring, because he did.

Shots from far do not go in. We had shooting distances from the moon. Imagine how much better our offense would have been.

I doubt it. The first line certainly maxed out their scoring once G got healthy.
And in what universe is a line centered by Filppula going to score a lot playing more aggressive hockey, they'd just turn the puck over more often.
Same with 19 year old Patrick at 3C.

Unless of course Colliton is your HC, he can turn mediocre forwards into scorers, unfortunately for both teams.

 

[deadhead]

It's crazy how bad, the bad ones became. But it's not like every game was like that as I showed. We had lots of great games too.

It seemed every game the goalies came out and played well, making their initial stops, the team would perk up and play harder.
Conversely, when the goalies gave up easy goals in the 1st period and dug the team a hole, they'd deflate, often playing hard, getting back into the game, only to see another "Mr Softee" end up in the back of the net and shrugging their shoulders.

It's not that there weren't other issues, but bad goaltending was the crux of the matter.

Yes, at times the defense let the goalies out to dry, but that happens on every team, but good goalies make big saves that cover for their defensemen, Flyer goalies had the worst Sv% for HD chances, they almost never came up big. And that wears down a team.

 

[BlackandOrange]

What is regular season dynamo Bruce Boudreau doing now?

 

[Beef Invictus]

What is regular season dynamo Bruce Boudreau doing now?

Offgassing

 

[Ghosts Beer]

What is regular season dynamo Bruce Boudreau doing now?

Go to Denny’s & ask him yourself.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Go to Denny’s & ask him yourself.

Literally any Denny's. It's amazing.

 

[The Hooter]

They didn't even have a defenseman who stood out clearly worthy as the team's best defenseman.

Hart sucked. Elliott was lousy. Patrick sucked. Myers sucked. Sanheim was well below expectations. Provorov was below expectations. Konecny was below expectations. Hayes was below expectations. Lindblom had an excuse, but was lousy. NAK was lousy. Gus was lousy. JVR was great early and lousy his last 30 games. And a bunch of other players were "meh."

Exactly. Lots of underperforming pieces all at the same time. Coaching? Don’t think so. No coach in the history of the game could win with this bunch the way they played.

I know…. They played bad because AV made them…. lol.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

lol

 

[Striiker]

lol

 

[The Hooter]

Nope. Still original.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Exactly. Lots of underperforming pieces all at the same time. Coaching? Don’t think so. No coach in the history of the game could win with this bunch the way they played.

I know…. They played bad because AV made them…. lol.

news flash....

when ALL your players are playing career worst at the SAME TIME... thats the very f***ing definition of bad coaching..

his system sucks, aint no player can thrive in it... except for opposing players..

they have stat pad day after day playing us...

 

[deadhead]

news flash....

when ALL your players are playing career worst at the SAME TIME... thats the very f***ing definition of bad coaching..

his system sucks, aint no player can thrive in it... except for opposing players..

they have stat pad day after day playing us...

So who was playing at their career worst last season?
NAK, since it was his 2nd season.
Who else?

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

We’re mostly in agreement that he needs to go, but we’ve been round this roundabout a few times in the past decade and it hasn’t gotten any better. A change of coach isn’t necessarily an improvement unless it’s the right one coming in.

So on that note, if AV was to go tomorrow, who’s your realistic suggestion to replace him?

This is a very important and oft overlooked sentiment, especially around here. Everyone wants to have the perfect coach, no arguments here, but you don't know what you are getting until it is too late (with some obvious exceptions). A while the idea was at one point we didn't want anyone who had been around too long because they weren't keeping up with today's NHL so hiring an unknown was seen as a good thing and hiring someone who has been around the block was bad. That was the sentiment with Berube that it was just a guy that had been around the organization and wasn't really a good coach but was handed the job because the Flyers do that with loyal players/coaches. We canned him and he went on to win a Cup with STL. Then we had Hakstol and I believe the sentiment was cautious optimism because he was an out of the box selection (although I recall some people thinking Hextall hired him because he coached his son or something). We all agree Hakstol was not the right coach so go with AV who was a more inside the box coach and that hasn't really materialized.

It isn't just the coach and it isn't just the players. You need the right coach for the right players and finding that coach (or the players) is not easy.

 

[deadhead]

AV may not be the right HC, but the idea that he just shows up and goes through the motion and somehow has a similar career record to Trotz is somewhat silly. I don't listen to what he says (I think some of it is for effect, like "I never looked at film"). But he managed to turn around a team that was struggling into a 106 point pace before COVID struck. Accident?

Bad coaches are obvious, as soon as BrindA'mour replaced Peters, Carolina took off.
And Carolina had as much talent as Hakstol's Flyer teams, but never cracked 90 points in 4 years. Hakstol made the playoffs twice.

Good coaches are harder to identify, was Julien a good coach? Montreal played worse after they fired him, then took off in the playoffs. Go figure.

So to me, HCs and goalies are similar, do your best, then cross your fingers.