Who would replace AV?

[Beef Invictus]

No, they don't.
They're the symptom, not the disease (lack of depth).
As organizational depth improves, these kind of players become history.

A bigger issue which Beef consistently ignores, is the failure of players like Vorobyev to be even passable (softest big forward I've ever seen), or why Bunnaman can't develop a modicum of offensive skills, 0r why NAK regressed so badly this year, why Friedman couldn't take the next step.

Could be development, could be scouts over sold some prospects.

But if these marginal prospects stepped up there would be no Stewart or Prosser, NAK had a chance to take the job in TC, Bunnaman should have been the 4C this year, building on last spring, Friedman should have outplayed Prosser and so on.

Now some is bad luck, every organization that has a string of bad luck tends to find itself scrapping the bottom of the barrel.
If Frost is healthy, Lindblom doesn't have cancer and Patrick the migraines, we don't even know Andreoff exists last season.
If Ghost doesn't blow an ACL, then a groin, then arthroscopic surgery on both knees, he's a permanent fixture in the top 4.
If Morin doesn't blow out both ACLs, he's #6, Braun isn't resigned and Hagg is buried on the bench.

And some is crap happens. Hart went south, you can blame anyone you want, but goalies do that, look around the league, was Murray ruined in Pittsburgh or is he just a head case?

I'm not ignoring those problems. I'm addressing them when talking about player development. The occasional player falling well short of late-stage potential is one thing. Having it happen to so many prospects and to rostered youth? It's a bigger problem than the players. It's coaching and management.

The disease (lack of depth) is the fault of management. They're to blame, and I'm blaming them. The symptoms are the manifestations of their many failings. And it is routinely exacerbated by bad coaching; also management's fault.

 

[Rebels57]

And yet STILL they made the Finals. They've had some brain numbing moves that just never seem to really bite them like they should.

Going forward as the team ages out, that draft should finally do it. In theory. Or Bergeron, Krejci, and Marchand will play at a high level into their late 40s, whatever.

I think they'd have won another Cup between 2016 and 2021 if not for that disastrous 2015 1st round. I genuinely do. That day should live in infamy in Bruins history if they're never able to win another Cup with the Bergeron-Marchand-Krejci-Rask-Pastrnak core.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think they'd have won another Cup between 2016 and 2021 if not for that disastrous 2015 1st round. I genuinely do. That day should live in infamy in Bruins history if they're never able to win another Cup with the Bergeron-Marchand-Krejci-Rask-Pastrnak core.

As it is I'm indignant that the hockey gods saw fit to let them have another Finals appearance after such a derelict day.

Meanwhile we get to do a Patrick.

 

[deadhead]

And yet STILL they made the Finals. They've had some brain numbing moves that just never seem to really bite them like they should.

Going forward as the team ages out, that draft should finally do it. In theory. Or Bergeron, Krejci, and Marchand will play at a high level into their late 40s, whatever.

Bergeron and Marchand > Couts and Giroux. No question about it, just look at their PO record.
Marchand (#71) 82g, 32-40 72, Bergeron (#45) 82g 21-38 59, Krejci (#63) 82g 22-42-64, Chara 150g 14-37 51 (FA 2006)
With a core like that, you can blow trades of Wheeler and Seguin.

But the biggest factor for Boston is they found two goalies who had extended success:
Tim Thomas 2007-2012, including a .940 S% when they won the Cup.
Rask 2009-present. Two great playoff performances, 2012-13, .940%, 2018-19, .934%, career PO S% of .925.

 

[Beef Invictus]

DeBoer took an awful Devils team to the Cup in 2012 and again took the Sharks to the Cup in 2016. He's going to now take the 3rd team he's coached in a row to the Cup when Vegas walks over Montreal.

Coachs need to grow over the years and adapt to the way the game is being played. Some are capable. Some are not. It appears DeBoer is capable. It appears AV is not. Not really that complicated.

Trotz becoming capable of previously unseen playoff flexibility at an advanced age is highly unusual, too. Keeping coaches or trying coaches who have always been similarly inflexible is more likely to end in more failure than it is to end with finding another outlier.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Bergeron and Marchand > Couts and Giroux. No question about it, just look at their PO record.
Marchand (#71) 82g, 32-40 72, Bergeron (#45) 82g 21-38 59, Krejci (#63) 82g 22-42-64, Chara 150g 14-37 51 (FA 2006)
With a core like that, you can blow trades of Wheeler and Seguin.

But the biggest factor for Boston is they found two goalies who had extended success:
Tim Thomas 2007-2012, including a .940 S% when they won the Cup.
Rask 2009-present. Two great playoff performances, 2012-13, .940%, 2018-19, .934%, career PO S% of .925.

Playoff record is goofy to look at. Bergeron and Marchand's playoff numbers would be butt if they played for teams built by Flyers management. They'd have no support for the bulk of their careers.

You could drop Rask and Thomas on the Flyers and similarly, they'd have failed too. Lack of support and all. Bad management things, but without the Boston luck to compensate for bad management.

 

[Rebels57]

As it is I'm indignant that the hockey gods saw fit to let them have another Finals appearance after such a derelict day.

Meanwhile we get to do a Patrick.

They made me cheer for the Blackhawks after what they did to us too. Motherf***ers.

 

[Rebels57]

Trotz becoming capable of previously unseen playoff flexibility at an advanced age is highly unusual, too. Keeping coaches or trying coaches who have always been similarly inflexible is more likely to end in more failure than it is to end with finding another outlier.

My entire perspective on AV heading into next season would be entirely different if he didn't blame the past season on literally everything except himself and his staff. Apparently he did this in New York too right up until the day before he was fired. The refusal to accept any responsibility tells me there won't be adjustments and the death spiral will continue. He doesn't consider himself part of the team. He considers himself ABOVE the team. Players probably f***ing hate him. There are already rumblings that they do.

 

[BernieParent]

To answer the question we have to define what represents a good core for a hockey team. Does this team's key players -- let's overgenerally say the top 9 F, top 6 D and starting goaltender -- have a more than reasonable chance of consistently scoring and defending at a high level? I would definitely say yes. We have seen more than just small samples of high individual skill from these players. Another consistency with this team, unfortunately, is that they play as less than the sum of their parts. Herein is the importance of the coaches and the GM; the coaches have to devise a system that will maximize the offensive and defensive ability of the team as a whole, and the GM has to identify the missing components to winning hockey and make the necessary changes.

The GM obviously has the more difficult job because it involves both projecting how a certain player will fit into the team and dealing away assets (players, picks, and cap) to make the necessary changes without creating an equal or worse roster hole elsewhere. The GM also has to prioritize the aspects that need to be added, whether that is goalscoring, defense, speed, toughness, etc. It is far easier to add toughness than goalscoring, for example, with a non-core player.

So now I meander to my main point about coaches. Beyond cajoling the GM to provide specific players that suit their desired play style, coaches need to find the happy medium between adapting their playbook to the strengths of the core and pushing the players to be more rounded performers at both ends of the ice. Trotz is a very good example; he pushed greater defensive responsibility on the Capitals while still maximizing the strengths of Ovechkin et al.

This is what leaves me empty-headed to identify even what coaching profile would fit the current Flyers roster at its best. Definitely up-tempo but not reliant on speed and with significant offensive activation of their Dmen. How much of that emphasizes dump and chase versus carrying the puck into the zone is up for debate. Active Dmen also means that the forwards have to be hyperaware of cycling back in coverage, so everyone has to be on the same page.

We all know, specifically, that special teams need to improve. PP needs an overhaul, IMHO, to emphasize quick puck movement and finding the defensive seams for high-danger shots. That will certainly mean personnel and structural changes. PK is less clear, mainly because the #1 improvement would be goaltending.

Anyway, sorry for the verbal diarrhea. My thesis can be summarized into the point that the optimal coach for the Flyers would be able to get the best out of his roster by running a system that primarily exploits its strengths but also working with the players on correcting the flaws. I know, genius stuff that nobody has thought of.

 

[deadhead]

I'm not ignoring those problems. I'm addressing them when talking about player development. The occasional player falling well short of late-stage potential is one thing. Having it happen to so many prospects and to rostered youth? It's a bigger problem than the players. It's coaching and management.

The disease (lack of depth) is the fault of management. They're to blame, and I'm blaming them. The symptoms are the manifestations of their many failings. And it is routinely exacerbated by bad coaching; also management's fault.

The lack of depth was due to Holmgren. Traded away picks and had some head scratching draft decisions.
Hextall did a great job drafting, he had his misses but also found at least two starters every draft, plus Myers and Zamula. You're gonna miss on most of your draft picks, it's the hits that count after the 1st rd.

But it takes 7-8 years to build depth through the draft, while 1st rd picks often arrive in 3 years or less, later round picks often take 5+ years to become reliable starters. Which means the 2016-2018 drafts have just started arriving the last two seasons.

This is now the 8th season since Hextall started rebuilding the talent pipeline, and unless they have a string of bad luck, they should easily be 14 forwards and 7 D-men deep without scrubs like Andreoff or Prosser.

 

[deadhead]

To answer the question we have to define what represents a good core for a hockey team. Does this team's key players -- let's overgenerally say the top 9 F, top 6 D and starting goaltender -- have a more than reasonable chance of consistently scoring and defending at a high level? I would definitely say yes.

The core of a team is the top 6, top 4 and starting goalie.
Depth is the bottom six [ST specialists and checking line], your 3rd pair defense and your backup goalie
Serious depth is your 13th/14th forward, 7th D-man and your AHL goalie.

 

[BernieParent]

The core of a team is the top 6, top 4 and starting goalie.
Depth is the bottom six [ST specialists and checking line], your 3rd pair defense and your backup goalie
Serious depth is your 13th/14th forward, 7th D-man and your AHL goalie.

So all that we have to arm wrestle about is the third F line, dead? I'd call that a pretty good consensus on this board!

 

[Striiker]

I see people are still white knighting for the staff and scapegoating the core in here.

Good. For a moment I was worried the board got more intelligent. Clearly that's not the case.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Nothing matters if your starting goalie turns in one of the worst #1 goalie seasons in the NHL’s last quarter-century.

 

[renberg]

My entire perspective on AV heading into next season would be entirely different if he didn't blame the past season on literally everything except himself and his staff. Apparently he did this in New York too right up until the day before he was fired. The refusal to accept any responsibility tells me there won't be adjustments and the death spiral will continue. He doesn't consider himself part of the team. He considers himself ABOVE the team. Players probably f***ing hate him. There are already rumblings that they do.

This is exactly why the big move by Fletcher this summer should be to rid the club of AV and his fools. The entire league knows AV's system and how to crush it. Generally, unless major changes are made, the second half of any season, and we know well how that went, is usually the precursor to the next. If the club goes sour out of the gates, a coaching change will have to happen.
Additionally, his treatment of the players during this season did occur. The impact of that isn't going to disappear over the summer even if the supposed "malcontents" are traded away. Hart still has AV's tire tracks across his backs and that's not going to go away. Similar things probably have happened to other players. I can't see some of these players being willing to pay a huge price to save AV his job.

 

[kudymen]

Flyers lack toughness. Therefore the coach needs to be Mr Bad Guy

 

[BernieParent]

One thing I enjoyed seeing in last night's game -- I don't know why I only noticed last night -- that would be a good addition to the Flyers' transition game is how the Knights set forwards near the Canadiens' blue line, but that they acted as bumpers to another streaking forward. This is effective use of the stretch pass to not only cover a lot of ice quickly but to catch the second forward with momentum in the right direction.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Nothing matters if your starting goalie turns in one of the worst #1 goalie seasons in the NHL’s last quarter-century.

Coaching a system that can only make that worse isn't a good way to compensate for that. Some would say it's actually bad coaching to see your goalies struggle like that and persist with a system that hangs them and their dmen out to dry nonstop.

 

[Magua]

DeBoer took an awful Devils team to the Cup in 2012 and again took the Sharks to the Cup in 2016. He's going to now take the 3rd team he's coached in a row to the Cup when Vegas walks over Montreal.

Coachs need to grow over the years and adapt to the way the game is being played. Some are capable. Some are not. It appears DeBoer is capable. It appears AV is not. Not really that complicated.

DeBoer is one of the better coaches in the league. Compare his Devils team to his Sharks team to his Vegas team. Not many similarities, and quite a lot of adaptability required. He's not perfect, and his teams tend to be more veteran focused. But I can't imagine comparing him to Vigneault based on the "Cup Finals" superficiality.

I'd love for any Vigneault fan to just say.......one or two things he obviously excels at. Breakouts? Defensive coverage? Emotional intelligence? Picking quality assistants? Matchups? Adjustments? We don't have to dwell on negatives, but what are his distinct positives?

 

[Beef Invictus]

DeBoer is one of the better coaches in the league. Compare his Devils team to his Sharks team to his Vegas team. Not many similarities, and quite a lot of adaptability required. He's not perfect, and his teams tend to be more veteran focused. But I can't imagine comparing him to Vigneault based on the "Cup Finals" superficiality.

I'd love for any Vigneault fan to just say.......one or two things he obviously excels at. Breakouts? Defensive coverage? Emotional intelligence? Picking quality assistants? Matchups? Adjustments? We don't have to dwell on negatives, but what are his distinct positives?

He's in a position of authority, therefore it is wrong to question him. It's like being a dentist. Just accept that they have to know what they're talking about when they demand to drill your adenoids.

 

[Striiker]

I'd love for any Vigneault fan to just say.......one or two things he obviously excels at. Breakouts? Defensive coverage? Emotional intelligence? Picking quality assistants? Matchups? Adjustments? We don't have to dwell on negatives, but what are his distinct positives?

Turning the media in his favor and scapegoating his players.

 

[Rebels57]

DeBoer is one of the better coaches in the league. Compare his Devils team to his Sharks team to his Vegas team. Not many similarities, and quite a lot of adaptability required. He's not perfect, and his teams tend to be more veteran focused. But I can't imagine comparing him to Vigneault based on the "Cup Finals" superficiality.

I'd love for any Vigneault fan to just say.......one or two things he obviously excels at. Breakouts? Defensive coverage? Emotional intelligence? Picking quality assistants? Matchups? Adjustments? We don't have to dwell on negatives, but what are his distinct positives?

Anxiously waiting the replies to this.

We know his overload defensive structure is bad. That's a fact.

We know his transition system is bad. That's a fact.

He displayed emotional intelligence in his first season and then pulled a 180 in his 2nd when the going got tough by constantly throwing players under the bus.

Adjustments he seemed to do well at in his first season and then his second season he refused to adjust and blamed lack of practice, which wasn't a problem for the majority of the league.

Matchups i'd have to dig deeper into but......well...how do people feel about Nate Thompson on Matt Barzal?

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

Matchups i'd have to dig deeper into but......well...how do people feel about Nate Thompson on Matt Barzal?

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Flyers fail again (Trotz and now Gallant)...but realistically here are the likely choices:

Lappy
Tocchet
Hatcher
Holmgren
Jeff Carter

 

[ajgoal]

I'll do it. Hell, I won't even cost that much. Beats will hate me though.