"Who Was Better, Crosby or MacKinnon?" Has Become A Valid Question

[pekka55]

Crosby is a generational player, MacKinnon is "just" a superstar. There's a difference. It's not that bi of a difference, but it's still there.

Who cares anyway about all this? They're both rich as f*** playing a game they love for a career. Good for them.

 

[Caps8112]

its crosby, always has been, likely will always will be. Mack is great, but hes just not in Crosbys class. The linemates and supporting players argument favors Mack. League wide scoring favors Mack. Trophy counting (if you want to) favors crosby by a mile and he was competing with Malkin, Ovechkin. Mack is competing with McD, Drai and Matthews? He has one two trophies. His first 4 years were good but nothing special. Crosby was elite out the gate and really hasnt ever fallen off. Yea hes not Hart trophy Crosby anymore the last few years but hes really not that far off from that and his team has fallen off. Nothing puts Mack close unless you cherry pick numbers alone. Mackinnon does show glimpses of how Ovi was around 08 with the speed and amazing plays. Love seeing him play.

 

[Cup or Bust]

MacKinnon will be one of the best of his generation, Crosby is one of the best of all time.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

The reality is that the pre-lockout era had more elite players, but also a lot more guys who couldn't score for shit.

Thank you for finally admitting that variations in scoring between eras come down to more than just the elite players in the league. Only took about a dozen comments back and forth. Good discussion sakicgm.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Here is all you need to know to answer the question whether the drop in scoring from '12 to '16 was due to factors other than a significant drop in talent.

Crosby's PPG from 14/15 to 15/16: 1.08 (2nd best in the league)

Crosby's PPG from 17/18 to 22/23: 1.16 (10th best in the league)

If the there was a significant increase in talent starting in 2017, how in the hell does an over age 30, post-prime Crosby INCREASE his PPG?

The clear, obvious answer was there was yet another change in league scoring levels attributed to factors besides some sort of inexplicable league-wide drop in talent.

The vast majority of the league's elite scorers saw an increase on their PPG starting in 2016/17

Do you want me to ignore the fact that the Pens replaced a 35+ year old Kunitz with a 20-something Guentzel before Crosby started scoring more? Or that they added Kessel for a few seasons, greatly improving the PP? Or should I just pretend that playing with a more talented supporting cast can't help an elite scorer average 6 or 7 more points per season?

And, starting in about 2016-17, the high end guys from the 2013-2016 drafts started joining the league and hitting their strides. McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Matthews, Marner, Rantanen, Eichel, Point, Pasta, Tkachuk, etc. Am I supposed to believe that this isn't what caused scoring to go up?

 

[HolyHagelin]

Holy shit 10 pages of arguing that rules changes and equipment don’t change the totals?

Take a non-nhl example. Is Tom Brady actually 33% better than Dan Marino, or did changes in coverage rules, protection rules, hitting the qb rules, and evolving offensive philosophy (air raid!) contribute to him producing 1.5x the career numbers of Marino?

ETA - sorry for the math flip flop, it is 33ish percent less from Tom’s perspective, 1.5xish from Dan’s.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Thank you for finally admitting that variations in scoring between eras come down to more than just the elite players in the league. Only took about a dozen comments back and forth. Good discussion sakicgm.

No, thank you for building another strawman and continuing to use bad faith arguments to pretend that there was no change in the quantity of top end talent in the league. The complete lack of relevant information you've provided is really convincing.

 

[x Tame Impala]

It's crazy that people still don't get that.

Unless, as you said, their argument is that Crosby is actually better as a 35 year old than he was in his prime at 27/28.

17 pages and this is the only point that really needs to be made.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

No, thank you for building another strawman and continuing to use bad faith arguments to pretend that there was no change in the quantity of top end talent in the league. The complete lack of relevant information you've provided is really convincing.

This is the original comment I responded to:

I'd also love to see evidence to suggest league scoring was down due to traps and obstruction, and not simply because there were so many fewer elite scorers in the league.

I disagree with you that league scoring was lower "simply because there were so many fewer elite scorers in the league"

I think its due to many factors. Equipment, systems/strategy, and not purely based on what the top 3% (or whatever the cut off for elite is) of the league was doing. Maybe how effective the top scorers were had an impact, but that is just one piece of the puzzle.

In your original point you said its all due to how many elite players there are. Yet in the previous post you suddenly admit that its down to more than that:

The reality is that the pre-lockout era had more elite players, but also a lot more guys who couldn't score for shit. Between 1996-97 and 2000-01, there were 91 guys who played at least 200 games and scored less than 0.2 PPG. Between 2011-21 and 2015-16, there were only 59, so even with fewer outliers at the top, the average stayed pretty much the same as the low end scoring improved pretty significantly.

You are contradicting yourself between posts.

Do you think variations in league scoring come simply from how many elite scorers are in the league? Yes or no?

 

[daver]

Do you want me to ignore the fact that the Pens replaced a 35+ year old Kunitz with a 20-something Guentzel before Crosby started scoring more? Or that they added Kessel for a few seasons, greatly improving the PP? Or should I just pretend that playing with a more talented supporting cast can't help an elite scorer average 6 or 7 more points per season?

Do you mean "33 points in 40 games" Guentzel propelled Crosby to his 2nd Rocket?

And "lowered Crosby's PP point totals when he joined the team" Kessel?

And, starting in about 2016-17, the high end guys from the 2013-2016 drafts started joining the league and hitting their strides. McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Matthews, Marner, Rantanen, Eichel, Point, Pasta, Tkachuk, etc. Am I supposed to believe that this isn't what caused scoring to go up?

Interesting how Crosby was able to keep up with these guys in 16/17 then isn't it?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Do you want me to ignore the fact that the Pens replaced a 35+ year old Kunitz with a 20-something Guentzel before Crosby started scoring more? Or that they added Kessel for a few seasons, greatly improving the PP? Or should I just pretend that playing with a more talented supporting cast can't help an elite scorer average 6 or 7 more points per season?

And, starting in about 2016-17, the high end guys from the 2013-2016 drafts started joining the league and hitting their strides. McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Matthews, Marner, Rantanen, Eichel, Point, Pasta, Tkachuk, etc. Am I supposed to believe that this isn't what caused scoring to go up?

The Penguins were on the decline by 17-18, dude. And Crosby wasn't playing with Kunitz in 2016 anyway.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

This is the original comment I responded to:


I disagree with you that league scoring was lower "simply because there were so many fewer elite scorers in the league"

I think its due to many factors. Equipment, systems/strategy, and not purely based on what the top 5% (or whatever the cut of for elite is) of the league was doing. Maybe how effective the top scorers were had an impact, but just a minor one at that.

In your original point you said its all due to how many elite players there are. Yet in the previous post you suddenly admit that its down to more than that:



You are contradicting yourself between posts.

Do you think variations in league scoring come simply from how many elite scorers are in the league? Yes or no?

If you disagree, then prove yourself right. Prove the connection between equipment changes and scoring rates. Prove that it was systems/strategy that caused there to be fewer guys capable of putting up 90+ points in a season, ultimately allowing Crosby to walk away with the 2013-14 Ross with little competition and Benn to win with 87 points the following year, and not the glaringly obvious lack of high end talent.

And, I fully agree variations in overall league scoring are due to a lot of different factors, which is why I'm not the one trying to use league scoring averages to prove my point. What I'm actually saying is that the number of guys who are elite enough to legitimately challenge for the Ross in a given season is very much due to how many elite scorers are in the league. During the 4 years I'm calling devoid of high end talent, Malkin and Crosby both won one man scoring races (2011-12 and 2013-14) by simply staying healthy and putting up pretty good seasons, because the next tier of guys couldn't even get close.

Do you think Benn beat elite players for his Ross, or did he beat guys who are clearly a tier or two below elite? For that matter, was Benn elite, or merely the best the league had?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

If you disagree, then prove yourself right. Prove the connection between equipment changes and scoring rates. Prove that it was systems/strategy that caused there to be fewer guys capable of putting up 90+ points in a season, ultimately allowing Crosby to walk away with the 2013-14 Ross with little competition and Benn to win with 87 points the following year, and not the glaringly obvious lack of high end talent.

And, I fully agree variations in overall league scoring are due to a lot of different factors, which is why I'm not the one trying to use league scoring averages to prove my point. What I'm actually saying is that the number of guys who are elite enough to legitimately challenge for the Ross in a given season is very much due to how many elite scorers are in the league. During the 4 years I'm calling devoid of high end talent, Malkin and Crosby both won one man scoring races (2011-12 and 2013-14) by simply staying healthy and putting up pretty good seasons, because the next tier of guys couldn't even get close.

Do you think Benn beat elite players for his Ross, or did he beat guys who are clearly a tier or two below elite? For that matter, was Benn elite, or merely the best the league had?

Benn was neither. The Stars just played a run and gun system, unlike any other team in the league that year. Stars games averaged 6.3 GPG while the rest of the league was at 5.3.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Do you mean "33 points in 40 games" Guentzel propelled Crosby to his 2nd Rocket?

And "lowered Crosby's PP point totals when he joined the team" Kessel?



Interesting how Crosby was able to keep up with these guys in 16/17 then isn't it?

Did Guentzel only play that single season and have no other impact on Crosby's PPG rate from 2017-18 - today? Or are you moving the goalposts because you can't refute what I actually said?

For that matter, how does Crosby having fewer PP points suggest Kessel was a worse scorer than Kunitz or Hornqvist?


Is it really interesting that Crosby was still elite and could keep up? Having more elite guys vying for the top spot doesn't mean Crosby got worse. It just means there's more competition for the top spots in the scoring race, making it harder to win the Ross.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

If you disagree, then prove yourself right.

No, you made the original argument. Its not on me to prove you wrong, its on you to prove you right. And you have shown through your own arguments that you don't even agree that league scoring was down "simply because there were so many fewer elite scorers in the league".

And, I fully agree variations in overall league scoring are due to a lot of different factors, which is why I'm not the one trying to use league scoring averages to prove my point. What I'm actually saying is that the number of guys who are elite enough to legitimately challenge for the Ross in a given season is very much due to how many elite scorers are in the league.

Great you agree, its down to multiple factors, as I have always said.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Benn was neither. The Stars just played a run and gun system, unlike any other team in the league that year. Stars games averaged 6.3 GPG while the rest of the league was at 5.3.

So you agree that Benn's Ross trophy doesn't prove he had a better individual season than Mack's last 7 years, when he won zero, and that raw trophy counts and scoring ranks aren't a great measure of who is the better player in comparisons from different eras?

No, you made the original argument. Its not on me to prove you wrong, its on you to prove you right. And you have shown through your own arguments that you don't even agree that league scoring was down "simply because there were so many fewer elite scorers in the league".

Sorry, but that's not how a debate works. You don't just get say you disagree with my evidence without presenting any evidence as to why your unsubstantiated theory is correct and claim that you're right. I presented my case, now it's your turn to lay out your evidence.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

So you agree that Benn's Ross trophy doesn't prove he had a better individual season than Mack's last 7 years, when he won zero, and that raw trophy counts and scoring ranks aren't a great measure of who is the better player in comparisons from different eras?



Sorry, but that's not how a debate works. You don't just get say you disagree with my evidence without presenting any evidence as to why your unsubstantiated theory is correct and claim that you're right. I presented my case, now it's your turn to lay out your evidence.

All I have been discussing in this thread is whether league wide scoring is due only too how many elite players are in the league. I think its due to multiple factors, you, after much back and forth, seem to agree. Thanks.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

So thats your evidence... ok.

1993-2005 produced a grand total of 4 PPG players. A 13 year stretch with 4 players. Similar rate to the 2 PPG players in 7 years. Surely this is a vacuum of talent worse than the early 2010's according to your logic?

I dunno the context of this argument and am too lazy to look back lol. But I will say PPG players is heavily reliant on the period they're playing in.

Within the last 10 years there have been multiple seasons with less than 10 PPG players. Last season there were 38.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

I dunno the context of this argument and am too lazy to look back lol. But I will say PPG players is heavily reliant on the period they're playing in.

Within the last 10 years there have been multiple seasons with less than 10 PPG players. Last season there were 38.

The context is that sakic said that league scoring in the early 2010s was lower "simply because there were so many fewer elite scorers in the league".

I disagreed and said its down to multiple factors. After much back and forth, he seems to have come around.

 

[Number8]

"Who Was Better, Crosby or MacKinnon?" Has Become A Valid Question​

No, unless both have either retired or died, it's actually not.

Or, if it is then I guess it's fair to consider this.

Last night, in the 662nd NHL game of his career, David Pastrnak scored a hattrick. Conversely, Wayne Gretzky scored just one goal in his 662nd NHL game.

I think it has now become a valid question as to whether David Pastrnak was (emphasis on verb tense because for some reason we are speaking of David in the past tense here ) three times the player that Wayne Gretzky was. Discuss.

 

[villacco]

Crosby after 9 season was at around 1.4 points per game (0.5 goals, 0.9 assists)
McDavid after 9 seasons is at around 1.5 points per game (0.5 goals, 1.0 assists)

These 2 players are extremly close in points per game considering the higher scoring area now.

McKinnon is an afterthought. Great player. Around Top 5 at average. Not 1a., 1b like Crosby and McDavid. They are generational

 

[WTFMAN99]

It's just recency bias.

Prime Crosby was amazing and it sucks he missed as much time as he did with concussions.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I don't care to rank individual seasons with you, thanks though.

All I have been discussing in this thread is whether league wide scoring is due only too how many elite players are in the league. I think its due to multipole factors, you, after much back and forth, seem to agree. Thanks.

In other words, you can't refute what I've said and don't want to look stupid by presenting a weak case. Got it.

And I've been saying there was less competition at the top end of the league between 2011 and 2016, so a bunch of mediocre guys were in the top 10 in scoring, with one of them even winning the Ross in 2014-15, which strongly supports my claim that using raw trophy counts and scoring ranks isn't a convincing way to prove who had a better season. The only person claiming that the elite players are the only reason why league wide scoring changed is the strawman you've been arguing against while pretending my unrelated point is somehow wrong.

 

[daver]

Sorry, but that's not how a debate works. You don't just get say you disagree with my evidence without presenting any evidence as to why your unsubstantiated theory is correct and claim that you're right. I presented my case, now it's your turn to lay out your evidence.

To sum up your evidence:

"Jamie Benn, LOL"

"Ryan Getzlaf, LOL"

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

The only person claiming that the elite players are the only reason why league wide scoring changed is the strawman you've been arguing against while pretending my unrelated point is somehow wrong.

I'd also love to see evidence to suggest league scoring was down due to traps and obstruction, and not simply because there were so many fewer elite scorers in the league.

You initially said that league scoring was lower simply because there were fewer elite scorers in the league.

I disagreed and said there are multiple factors.

You then admitted there are multiple factors as well.