"Who Was Better, Crosby or MacKinnon?" Has Become A Valid Question

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Point finishes

Crosby : 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5, 6, 10

Mac: 1*, 5, 5, 5, 7, 8

Remove the duplicates:

Crosby's: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6, 10

Mac's: 5, 5, 7, 8


PPG finishes

Crosby: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6

Mac: 1*, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9

Remove the duplicates:

Crosby's PPG finishes: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 6

Mac's PPG finishes: 5, 7, 9

Are we supposed to believe that beating guys like Getzlaf and Seguin is clearly a better season than coming in 5th behind guys like McDavid, Kucherov and Malkin?

 

[daver]

Again, where exactly do you get the idea that I'm saying Crosby's PPG doesn't need context or that Crosby "regressed as a player"? Because what I'm literally saying is that trophy counts need context just as much as point totals and PPG need context. Is it that building a strawman and arguing with yourself is easier than addressing my actual claims?

And having fewer elite players creates even better chances for a top 20ish guy to get into the top 5. When there's 4 or 5 elite players capable of scoring 100+ in a season, having 2 or 3 of them get hurt in a season can vault a ~90 point guy into 2nd, while the only remaining healthy elite guy can walk away with the Ross. When there's 10 guys capable of putting up 100+, 2 or 3 getting hurt only moves the 90 point guy into 7th or 8th.

Crosby - '07 to '`14: NHL Stats

Mac: '18 to '24: NHL Stats

Almost the exact same number of games and PPG.

Crosby is #1 in PPG by 18% (the same as McDavid)
Mac is #3 in PPG.

#10 in PPG in Crosby's era is one those "elite" players you mentioned. Kovalchuk. Crosby is 42% ahead of him.

McDavid is Crosby's peer, not Mac.

Are we supposed to believe that beating guys like Getzlaf and Seguin is clearly a better season than coming in 5th behind guys like McDavid, Kucherov and Malkin?

Crosby - '07 to '`14: NHL Stats

You mean the Malkin that was 18% behind Crosby?

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

According to SackiAsMyGM RNH's 104 point season in 2022 was roughly equal to Kanes 106 point season in 2016.

 

[Steerpike]

I'd like to reestablish that this is not a common opinion among Avs fans, and if this were a poll it would have been closed for not being competitive.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

My excuse it that I did the math at 2 am and multiplied the average goals per team by total number of games without accounting for their being 2 teams in each game.

But this just means that if the top 25 guys are each scoring 20 more than their predecessors, the other 375 guys only have to average less than 2 more than their counterparts each to make up the difference. So, my math was wrong, but my theory still works.

You're hopeless

Because correlation doesn't prove causation. Which of these things are you able to directly tie to the goalie pads shrinking?

Did the goalie equipment changes put out the dumpster fire in Colorado, allowing MacKinnon to reach a new level?
Was it why a 3rd year Panarin scored 8 more points than the previous year to hit PPG for the first time?
Was it why a 4th year Kuznetzov hit PPG for the first time?
Was it what allowed a 4th year Gaudreau to hit PPG, after coming 1 point short two years before?
Was it why Kucherov went from 85 in his 3rd year to 100 in his 4th, or why Stamkos was able to stay healthy and return to PPG form?
Is it why Barzal put up a PPG season to win the Calder, or why Tavares returned to PPG form after 2 years just under?

Or, if those are too difficult, I'd even be willing to let you pick any of those PPG player to demonstrate the direct link between their PPG season and goalie pad size.

Third year Panarin was 26 dude.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Crosby - '07 to '`14: NHL Stats

Mac: '18 to '24: NHL Stats

Almost the exact same number of games and PPG.

Crosby is #1 in PPG by 18% (the same as McDavid)
Mac is #3 in PPG.

#10 in PPG in Crosby's era is one those "elite" players you mentioned. Kovalchuk. Crosby is 42% ahead of him.

McDavid is Crosby's peer, not Mac.





You mean the Malkin that was 18% behind Crosby?

Right, the exact same number of games and PPG. That's why this is such an interesting question. The fact that MacKinnon has the misfortune of spending his prime competing with McDavid, Kucherov and Draisaitl, while Crosby easily won a Ross against Getzlaf and Seguin and Giroux, doesn't even remotely suggest what you're claiming it proves.

And, the fact that Kovalchuk was 9th (13 points in 11 games doesn't qualify Forsberg for the list), despite not even being all that elite, isn't really evidence that there wasn't a very limited number of elite players during that time.


And, yes, I mean the same Malkin that only played 60 games in 2013-14 when Crosby led the league in scoring.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

According to SackiAsMyGM RNH's 104 point season in 2022 was roughly equal to Kanes 106 point season in 2016.

According to you, Jamie Benn's 87 point Ross winng season is better than every season by someone who finished 2nd to Gretzky in scoring.

 

[daver]

And, the fact that Kovalchuk was 9th (13 points in 11 games doesn't qualify Forsberg for the list), despite not even being all that elite, isn't really evidence that there wasn't a very limited number of elite players during that time.

Interesting how you named Kovalchuk as an example of an elite player that wasn't replaced by 2012 which is why scoring went down.

More interesting is that you have now erased that comment from your previous post.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

You're hopeless


Third year Panarin was 26 dude.

Insults don't prove anything. Neither does repeating the same tired claims that you can't prove.

How exactly does Panarin being 26 in his 3rd year prove it was the goalie pad changes?

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

According to you, Jamie Benn's 87 point Ross winng season is better than every season by someone who finished 2nd to Gretzky in scoring.

Bernie Nicholls had one of the best non Gretzky/Lemieux NHL seasons of all time. Better than anything Howe did. It is known.

Honestly I am impressed with your resilience if nothing else in defending a clearly wrong take. Have yet to see any evidence backing your opinion. Only conjecture so far.

Please provide evidence that can counter the mountains of data on era adjustments.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Interesting how you named Kovalchuk as an example of an elite player that wasn't replaced by 2012 which is why scoring went down.

More interesting is that you have now erased that comment from your previous post.

He obviously wasn't at Crosby's level, but Kovalchuk was at least 1.02 PPG over that time, and had multiple 90+ point seasons on his resume. And who was drafted between 2006 and 2012, other than Stamkos and Kane, that was even on that level? When answering, please keep in mind that you also need to find replacements for Jagr and Thornton and the Sedins and Sakic and Datsyuk and MSL and Iginla and...

Any chance you want to quote the post where you think I erased the thing you obviously imagined?

 

[MadLuke]

This was i imagine pointed out, but

PPG 18-24, player with 250 games or more

McDavid..: 1.60
Kucherov.: 1.43
Mackinnon: 1.40
Drai.....: 1.35
Panarin..: 1.22

07-14:
Crosby...: 1.42
Malkin...: 1.22
Ovechkin.: 1.18
St. Louis: 1.07
Thornton.: 1.05

Scoring was quite different, scoring at a 1.4 ppg pace back then versus recently is 2 different world.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Bernie Nicholls had one of the best non Gretzky/Lemieux NHL seasons of all time. Better than anything Howe did. It is known.

Honestly I am impressed with your resilience if nothing else in defending a clearly wrong take. Have yet to see any evidence backing your opinion. Only conjecture so far.

Please provide evidence that can counter the mountains of data on era adjustments.

So, you do agree with me that simply winning the Ross doesn't mean you had a better season than a guy who didn't win? Because that's literally the point I've been arguing this entire thread, which you've been arguing against and are now calling "a clearly wrong take".

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

So, you do agree with me that simply winning the Ross doesn't mean you had a better season than a guy who didn't win? Because that's literally the point I've been arguing this entire thread, which you've been arguing against and are now calling "a clearly wrong take".

Pop over to the Kum and Go and get yourself an oxygen bottle, the altitude has gotten to your head

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Pop over to the Kum and Go and get yourself an oxygen bottle, the altitude has gotten to your head

When did altitude jokes replace the weed jokes?

But, since you brought them up, I think someone should probably tell you that the oxygen bottles are really only for idiots who visit from sea level.

 

[authentic]

This was i imagine pointed out, but

PPG 18-24, player with 250 gamse or more

McDavid..: 1.60
Kucherov.: 1.43
Mackinnon: 1.40
Drai.....: 1.35
Panarin..: 1.22

07-14:
Crosby...: 1.42
Malkin...: 1.22
Ovechkin.: 1.18
St. Louis: 1.07
Thornton.: 1.05

Scoring was quite different, scoring at a 1.4 ppg pace back then versus recently is 2 different world.

Not only this but you could argue Crosby would have an even bigger gap on everyone outside of Pittsburgh if he got to play as much with Malkin as McDavid has with Draisaitl.

 

[daver]

So, you do agree with me that simply winning the Ross doesn't mean you had a better season than a guy who didn't win? Because that's literally the point I've been arguing this entire thread, which you've been arguing against and are now calling "a clearly wrong take".

You have been arguing that Crosby's PPG dominance over the Top 10/20 scorers from '12 to '16 isn't as good as the numbers would indicate.

His dominance over the Top 10/20 scorers from '07 to '11 makes that argument look silly.

 

[AvalancheFan19]

I think you can argue it has the potential to BECOME valid and a few things need to happen. An Art Ross, Hart and Conn Smythe performance from Mackinnon this season would be a start. Continued dominance from Mackinnon (on par / just below McDavid level) for a few more seasons and some incredible playoff performances mixed in make it a valid question. Additional hardware would certainly help.

As of right now? Not close, Crosby.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

So, you do agree with me that simply winning the Ross doesn't mean you had a better season than a guy who didn't win? Because that's literally the point I've been arguing this entire thread, which you've been arguing against and are now calling "a clearly wrong take".

Lol no, I don't acutally think Nicholls has one of the best seasons of all time lol. You do?

You have been arguing that league scoring was low in the early-mid 2010s due to the league having fewer elite players.

I disagree with you that the low scoring of the mid 2010s was due to the league having fewer elite players. Prove your point with numbers.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Lol no, I don't acutally think Nicholls has one of the best seasons of all time lol. You do?

You have been arguing that league scoring was low in the early-mid 2010s due to the league having fewer elite players.

I disagree with you that the low scoring of the mid 2010s was due to the league having fewer elite players. Prove your point with numbers.

I've actually been arguing that Crosby's 104 point Ross isn't necessarily a better season than MacKinnon's 5th place finish last year when he scored 111 in 71 games, so using raw trophy counts isn't convincing. The only reason the relative weakness of their competition came into my argument is because some people want to keep pretending that finishing 1st ahead of Getzlaf is better than finishing 5th, even if it's due to missing games and going head to head with a guy like McDavid, who is much more offensively gifted than anyone I've seen since Lemieux and Gretzky.

And I didn't even register which name you said, to be honest. I was too busy thinking about Lemieux's 141 point 2nd season where he finished 2nd behind Gretzky who put up 215. And his 3rd year, when he finished 3rd with 107, behind Wayne with 183, and Kurri with 108. If your logic is true and winning is always better than coming 2nd/3rd to a superior player, then Benn's 87 point Ross trophy winning season must be better than either of these two year's when Lemieux didn't win. Is that what you would have everyone believe, so that you can claim to be able to prove who is better using trophy counts from different eras?

 

[daver]

I've actually been arguing that Crosby's 104 point Ross isn't necessarily a better season than MacKinnon's 5th place finish last year when he scored 111 in 71 games, so using raw trophy counts isn't convincing. The only reason the relative weakness of their competition came into my argument is because some people want to keep pretending that finishing 1st ahead of Getzlaf is better than finishing 5th, even if it's due to missing games and going head to head with a guy like McDavid, who is much more offensively gifted than anyone I've seen since Lemieux and Gretzky.

How about "finishing 7th behind Gaudreau and Huberdeau"? Is that as good as "finishing 1st ahead of Getzlaf"?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

How about "finishing 7th behind Gaudreau and Huberdeau"? Is that as good as "finishing 1st ahead of Getzlaf"?

No, I don't think Mack's 99 point season when he finished 7th was as good as Crosby's 104 point Ross winning season, but it's easily just as good as, and honestly probably better than, Crosby's 84, 85 and 89 point seasons that saw him finish 3rd, 3rd, and 2nd.

 

[daver]

No, I don't think Mack's 99 point season when he finished 7th was as good as Crosby's 104 point Ross winning season, but it's easily just as good as, and honestly probably better than, Crosby's 84, 85 and 89 point seasons that saw him finish 3rd, 3rd, and 2nd.

That's a heck of an argument you have laid out there. You had me at "honestly".

 

[nowhereman]

Should have done a poll so we could just close this thing up already.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

And I didn't even register which name you said, to be honest.

I cant continue to discuss things with someone who can't even read, props for recognizing and admitting your limitations at least.

So yeah, you think the low scoring of the early 2010's was due to a decrease in the elite players in the league. An odd view I disagree with.