Who is the 2nd best player currently?

[Krewe]

My problem with how some regard Kucherov is that what makes him elite is one thing. Offense.

Is he good defensively? No.
Does he PK? No.
Does he play the least important position? Yes.
Does he bring any physicality or dynamic speed to bring another element to a game? No.
Is he at least an Ovechkin type of sniper whose offense comes in a much more in demand way? No.

He is elite offensively, and he’s probably the best offensive player on the best team in the league, but I find it hard to rank him up there with the best centers and defensemen in the league. I don’t think that one dimension he brings is so overwhelmingly important that the rest doesn’t matter.

Kucherov is better defensively than most elite offensive forwards. No he is not “good” but he is average/above average which is better than McDavid, Drai, Eichel, Kane, Ovi, or others can say

 

[GreatSaveEssensa]

Their entire careers have overlapped
Kucherov: 547pts in 515 GP = 1.06 PPG
MacK: 495pts in 525 GP = 0.94 PPG

Since Mack's breakout in 17/18
Kucherov: 313pts in 230 GP = 1.36 PPG
MacK: 289pts in 225 GP = 1.28 PPG

Top 10 goals: 3-3
2,6,9 vs 6,9,9

Top 10 pts: 4-3, Kucherov
1,3,5,7 vs 5,5,7

Top 10 hart: 3-3
1,6,8 vs 2,2,6

AST: 4-2, Kucherov
1,1,2,2 vs 2,2

Kucherov has better goal finishes, better (and more) pt finishes and he actually has individual hardware, unlike MacK who has never been within single digits of a ross. Kucherov also just had the 2nd highest scoring playoff run in the last 25 years. So better finishes in everything, way better peak season, best playoff run, actually has individual hardware and a cup but MacK is better. Makes sense considering how overrated he's become.

Somehow you fail to mention the considerable gap in defensive responsibility which a centre just naturally has over a winger. If you ask me the gap in the stats isnt that big at all. Add in MacKinnons huge advantage in his defensive game over Kuch, I would say that more then makes up the difference in points and puts MacKinnon ahead of him.

Take MacK out of Colorado it would have a way bigger negative impact to Colorado then taking Kuch out of Tampa would.

There is more to hockey then scoring believe it or not.

 

[Team Cozens]

Went with Eichel.

 

[Krewe]

Add in MacKinnons huge advantage in his defensive game over Kuch

Citation needed. While centers might have a bit more responsibility, Kucherov posts as good or better defensive numbers than MacK. He isn't a black hole in his own zone like Ovi or Kane. MacK only JUST posted his first year of average/above average defensive metrics.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Kucherov and panarin would destroy eichel in a poll

Kuch, maybe, only because of hf though I'd take Eichel.

Idk if Panarin would win on here but I can't see it being a landslide.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Citation needed. While centers might have a bit more responsibility, Kucherov posts as good or better defensive numbers than MacK. He isn't a black hole in his own zone like Ovi or Kane. MacK only JUST posted his first year of average/above average defensive metrics.

didn't you hear? MacKinnon stans are now claiming he's a defensive master 200 ft two way center so that means he's definitely better than McDavid and everyone else

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Went with Eichel.

I like Eich but there's no way he's the 2nd best player in the world

 

[Team Cozens]

I like Eich but there's no way he's the 2nd best player in the world

I honestly can’t wait to have the conversation at the end of next season. He is an absolute beast on a crappy team with zero support. Feel free to bookmark.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it appears that finishing first in things matters (who would've known!?!?). Huh, like winning a Hart, Art Ross, Lindsey, and Stanley Cup all within the past three years. I find it interesting that actually winning things doesn't really count in these discussions...in before the "hockey is a team game" argument. Kucherov is #2, I concur.

That's because they shouldn't, and not because "hockey is a team game", but rather because using them in a discussion about who is the best player is simply like using a shortcut to avoid any logical/thinking process.

They matter when it comes time to discuss who has had the most "prestigious" career since that is all about recognition.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

I honestly can’t wait to have the conversation at the end of next season. He is an absolute beast on a crappy team with zero support. Feel free to bookmark.

Yes he is, I like him a lot. Saying he's not the 2nd best player in the world isn't trashing him lol.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Kucherov is better defensively than most elite offensive forwards. No he is not “good” but he is average/above average which is better than McDavid, Drai, Eichel, Kane, Ovi, or others can say

He has better stats than Draisaitl and Eichel. I think if you asked 31 coaches, 25+ are taking the two centers defensively. When you play for the best team in the league compared to two bad/inconsistent teams, it’s not hard to imagine why he has better defensive stats.

I don’t disagree on how he compares to Ovechkin and Kane, but both those guys suck defensively.

 

[hamzarocks]

Kucherov and panarin would destroy eichel in a poll

Eichel isnt any better than matthews. Both are in the 7-12 tier right now depending on what you value.

There is a clear cut top 5 of Mcd, Kuch, mack, drai, and Sid.

Hedman is 6th then Geno+Panarin imo are really close with eichel and matthews right behind them rounding the top 10

 

[McVespa99]

why isn't McDavid an option?

Because he isnt.

 

[hamzarocks]

Kuch, maybe, only because of hf though I'd take Eichel.

Idk if Panarin would win on here but I can't see it being a landslide.

Are you trying to end your teams playoff streak or win a lottery again?

Kucherov is a game breaking winger he put up almost 130 last year. 3 consecutive 100 point years (pace wise would have gotten thos year had it been 82 games)

The best playoff performer from 2018-2020.

He smokes eichel(along with almost every other player in the NHL beside McDavid for now).

Id easily Kucherov on my team for the next 5 years over eichel/matthews/pettersson (any other young star that gets rated above him for some reason)

 

[McVespa99]

Voted MacKinnon.

Tbh Elias Pettersson is the first name that popped into my head.

There is something wrong with your head....

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Eichel isnt any better than matthews. Both are in the 7-12 tier right now depending on what you value.

There is a clear cut top 5 of Mcd, Kuch, mack, drai, and Sid.

Hedman is 6th then Geno+Panarin imo are really close with eichel and matthews right behind them rounding the top 10

There was a recent thread asking if everyone agrees about a clear cut top five, and the results were not close. There might be a clear top five, in your opinion, but most disagree.

 

[Varan]

Hart Votes last 3 seasons: Mac: 2621 McDavid: 1044

2018 - McD lost because he didn’t make the playoffs

2019 - 3rd but no one was beating Kucherov

2020 - Missed some games + Drai went off

This essentially boils down to team + talent. If MacK had another similar caliber of player like him, there’s no way he’s racking up all those votes. Plus the Oilers are trash outside those 2.

How about something more objective like production?

Last three seasons:

McDavid: 321 points / 116 goals / 205 assists / 1.43 PPG — 224 games played

MacKinnon: 289 points / 115 goals / 174 assists / 1.28 PPG — 225 games played

Hell he outscored him this past season while playing 5 fewer games, in a year where MacKinnon was going to put up career highs.

He’s just no match when you isolate the players and remove the team aspect.

 

[hamzarocks]

There was a recent thread asking if everyone agrees about a clear cut top five, and the results were not close. There might be a clear top five, in your opinion, but most disagree.

What's the reason for disagreement ? The only guy who might not make sense is maybe Sid if you think hes too old and is declining

McDavid is 1 obviously

Kuch and Mack are viewed as a battle for 2 with the loser of that seen as 3

Draisaitl is 4th pretty easily after taking 3 of 4 major awards after 50 goals and 105 points (he was propped a bit this year with 97 but showed his growth the following year).

Eichel + matthews + pasta + pettersson + panarin and anyone else who would be slotted in the top 5 havent done enough consistently over the past several years to be viewed better than those 4 and I dont see anyone there better than Crosby either

 

[Sweetpotato]

its Mackinnon. But Kucherov & Draisaitl are right there.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

I like Eich but there's no way he's the 2nd best player in the world

Wouldn't be that far off, if at all.

I honestly can’t wait to have the conversation at the end of next season. He is an absolute beast on a crappy team with zero support. Feel free to bookmark.

Going to have some fun with a small group of Leafs fans after Eichel's first season on a decent/good team. Never played with someone like Hall, has a 2nd line for the first time in a long time and Dahlin/Olofsson will be decently better than last year. Going to put up a lot of points.

Are you trying to end your teams playoff streak or win a lottery again?

Kucherov is a game breaking winger he put up almost 130 last year. 3 consecutive 100 point years (pace wise would have gotten thos year had it been 82 games)

The best playoff performer from 2018-2020.

He smokes eichel(along with almost every other player in the NHL beside McDavid for now).

Id easily Kucherov on my team for the next 5 years over eichel/matthews/pettersson (any other young star that gets rated above him for some reason)

We'll see once Eichel gets to play with other elite offensive talent.

 

[The Abusement Park]

didn't you hear? MacKinnon stans are now claiming he's a defensive master 200 ft two way center so that means he's definitely better than McDavid and everyone else

The only people I've seen praise him for being a good 2 way player aren't Avs fans. I think most Avs fans know he's an average defensive player. However his defensive play in the playoffs was really good if I remember correctly.

 

[Machinehead]

There is something wrong with your head....

I told you, they looked at it already!

 

[BB06]

Hart Votes last 3 seasons: Mac: 2621 McDavid: 1044

Last 3 seasons Major trophies

Mcdavid-2
Mac-0

Mac needs to outscore Mcdavid sidekick before he gets to the final boss.

 

[Regal]

Posters claim MacKinnon is the most overrated when you have people thinking Eichel has an argument here.

 

[Sean Garrity]

That's because they shouldn't, and not because "hockey is a team game", but rather because using them in a discussion about who is the best player is simply like using a shortcut to avoid any logical/thinking process.

They matter when it comes time to discuss who has had the most "prestigious" career since that is all about recognition.

So then make your point, because at this point all you've is stated how you're going to make your point without actually making one. If you noticed, there was nothing about team accomplishments in my OP, so I'd be interested to see how you attempt to swing my point in your favor. I know I know, that'll take effort, and it'll be extremely hard, but I'll wait for you sweetheart.