Who is the 2nd best player currently?

[Ben White]

I told you, they looked at it already!

Funny how people as recent as august thought it was even Steven between EP and Matthews and now it’s suddenly hilarious to have them in the same conversation...

Elias Pettersson vs. Auston Matthews

 

[The Moose is Loose]

I really don’t know how you take Kucherov over Draisaitl. Kucherov plays on a much better team but he has fewer points and goals.

Draisaitl has the accolades and the point/goals to be in the argument for #2. I personally think Mackinnon edges him but that’s more on my personal belief in Mack rather than a numbers argument.

I also think there is argument for Hedman, as I think you could argue his on ice impact is the 2nd best in the league.

 

[Machinehead]

Funny how people as recent as august thought it was even Steven between EP and Matthews and now it’s suddenly hilarious to have them in the same conversation...

Elias Pettersson vs. Auston Matthews

Oh no, like every other thread on HF this has now become an Auston Matthews thread!

 

[keglu]

Funny how people as recent as august thought it was even Steven between EP and Matthews and now it’s suddenly hilarious to have them in the same conversation...

Elias Pettersson vs. Auston Matthews

'Going forward' and 'right now' are 2 different conversation. For example i would take EP going forward and have very high expectations of him. Does not mean i consider him better player now.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Ah, the "this guy hand an injured wrist during the SCFs" argument. It's the Finals. Everyone is dealing with something.

It was a well documented thing but sure

 

[bobholly39]

"A stat doesn't fit my preconceived notions so the stat must be inadequate."

Logic = backwards.

Strong majority opinion = WAR isn't the end all be all in determining player ranking.
Strong majority opinion = EP isn't the second best player in the league.

You're the one cherry picking a stat very few people use to try and push forth an opinion very few people believe. The opinion is wrong, and showing only this stat as a reasoning for it is hardly a strong counter argument.

Funny how people as recent as august thought it was even Steven between EP and Matthews and now it’s suddenly hilarious to have them in the same conversation...

Elias Pettersson vs. Auston Matthews

Going forward is not the same question as now. I think most recognize EP has a very high potential.

Who do you take going forward, Lafreniere or Malkin? Whose better now? Not exactly the same question...

Matthews > EP now, and not all that close. EP has to put together a season worthwhile of his talent before he'll be seen among the very best. EP was pacing for like ~80 points this season in a full year, while the Art Ross was being won at close to ~130 point, or 50 point difference. That's a massive distance from the top tier offensive players in the league. Matthews isn't #2 either - but at least he's closer.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I really don’t know how you take Kucherov over Draisaitl. Kucherov plays on a much better team but he has fewer points and goals.

Draisaitl has the accolades and the point/goals to be in the argument for #2. I personally think Mackinnon edges him but that’s more on my personal belief in Mack rather than a numbers argument.

I also think there is argument for Hedman, as I think you could argue his on ice impact is the 2nd best in the league.

When has Leon scored 128 points in the reg season and when has he scored 34 points in the playoffs?

 

[McDNicks17]

"A stat doesn't fit my preconceived notions so the stat must be inadequate."

"A stat fits my preconceived notions, so it must be great."

Any stat that says Pettersson was the best player in the league last year is obviously inadequate.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

"A stat fits my preconceived notions, so it must be great."

Any stat that says Pettersson was the best player in the league last year is obviously inadequate.

Considering some analytics folks tweak/modify their own versions of WAR because they don't think WAR itself does for hockey what it does for baseball, I'd say even the majority of the analytics community probably wouldn't use it as the be-all, end-all to determine a player's performance.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Hedman > MacKinnon

 

[Machinehead]

Considering some analytics folks tweak/modify their own versions of WAR because they don't think WAR itself does for hockey what it does for baseball, I'd say even the majority of the analytics community probably wouldn't use it as the be-all, end-all to determine a player's performance.

"A stat fits my preconceived notions, so it must be great."

Any stat that says Pettersson was the best player in the league last year is obviously inadequate.

Who said it was a be-all-end-all? Who even said it was great?

I happen to like Pettersson. He was close to a PPG player and was outstanding defensively in 19-20. His season reminded me of Bergeron and he's not even close to done.

 

[TheMule93]

 

[LetsGoBLUES91]

Between MacKinnon and one of the Lightning guys (Hedman, Point, Kucherov) for me.

I don't agree with Point in this convo. He's great though.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Who said it was a be-all-end-all? Who even said it was great?

I happen to like Pettersson. He was close to a PPG player and was outstanding defensively in 19-20. His season reminded me of Bergeron and he's not even close to done.

What other analysis other than something like WAR suggests Pettersson is the 2nd best player in the NHL?

 

[Machinehead]

What other analysis other than something like WAR suggests Pettersson is the 2nd best player in the NHL?

He had the third-best even strength goal differential in the NHL and that's not even particularly fancy.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

He had the third-best even strength goal differential in the NHL and that's not even particularly fancy.

That still doesn't scream "2nd best" considering even using that methodology he's 3rd best.

If your argument is he's a top 10 forward because of these "measurements", that's one thing. But you mentioned him in a thread literally about the 2nd best player in the league. So other than WAR, nothing suggests he is 2nd best in the league.

 

[Machinehead]

That still doesn't scream "2nd best" considering even using that methodology he's 3rd best.

If your argument is he's a top 10 forward because of these "measurements", that's one thing. But you mentioned him in a thread literally about the 2nd best player in the league. So other than WAR, nothing suggests he is 2nd best in the league.

Maybe he's not there yet, but if I picked second in a Chel fantasy draft, he's probably my pick.

 

[KIRK]

The answer is whichever of McDavid and MacKinnon isn't #1.

Ergo, based on the 'assumption' in this poll that McDavid is #1, MacKinnon is #2.

 

[Albatros]

The answer is whichever of McDavid and MacKinnon isn't #1.

Ergo, based on the 'assumption' in this poll that McDavid is #1, MacKinnon is #2.

#2 and #5 in Hart vote this year, #3 and #6 last year, #2 and #5 the year before. But hey, they're Canadian so they must be the better than the rest.

 

[Petrus]

I’d go with Crosby. He was injured last year and so people forget about him.

 

[Mez]

Mack contributes to a higher percentage of his teams goals, and just outscored Kucherov while every other member of the Avs top 6 missed 10+ games with injuries. He also outscored 2nd place on the Avs by 43 points.

Kucherov, on the other hand, has scored 24 more points (-2 g, +26 a) since 2017-18, but his team also has 103 more goals over that stretch, which is a big reason why he has 26 more assists. And, even in his 128 point season, he only outscored 2nd place by 30 points (and 3rd by 36 points).

So, other than having more assists as a function of playing on a better team, why should this be Kucherov?

Why just cherry pick last season for Mack? 2018/19, only 12 points above 2nd on his team, 2017/18 only 13 above 2nd on his team. He has never broken 100 points, he has never won an Art ross, He has never been MVP (Hart), the only award he has to his name is the Lady Byng...How exactly is he better than Kucherov?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Why just cherry pick last season for Mack? 2018/19, only 12 points above 2nd on his team, 2017/18 only 13 above 2nd on his team. He has never broken 100 points, he has never won an Art ross, He has never been MVP (Hart), the only award he has to his name is the Lady Byng...How exactly is he better than Kucherov?

Because we're talking about who is CURRENTLY the 2nd best player, which makes the most recent season the most relevant one. Maybe Kucherov was better 2 years ago, but he also played on the highest scoring team since the 2004-05 lockout, so I could argue that his numbers were inflated. Do you honestly believe that Kucherov would have come remotely close to those numbers playing on the 2018-19 Avs?

Oh, and Mack also has his name on the Calder.

 

[The Macho King]

Hard to put a d-man at #2. Tampa is stacked regardless so his true value is hidden.

Why?

 

[The Macho King]

Because we're talking about who is CURRENTLY the 2nd best player, which makes the most recent season the most relevant one. Maybe Kucherov was better 2 years ago, but he also played on the highest scoring team since the 2004-05 lockout, so I could argue that his numbers were inflated. Do you honestly believe that Kucherov would have come remotely close to those numbers playing on the 2018-19 Avs?

Oh, and Mack also has his name on the Calder.

Him and Tyler Myers and Steve Mason and...

The Calder is a garbage trophy.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Him and Tyler Myers and Steve Mason and...

The Calder is a garbage trophy.

Does any of that change the fact that Mack's name is on the trophy?

And, I could argue that the Hart is garbage, because too many voters just pick the player with the most points, wrongly conflating scoring totals with value to their team.