Who is best Peter Forsberg at his peak Vs Connor McDavid now?

[daver]

The answer is simple:

Forsberg had better scorers in his line to finish from his plays and also he had players in his line that could also create scoring chances so he can finish from their plays.

Draisatl was 8th in scoring and had a dominant playoffs.

 

[daver]

Yeah but those seasons are apples to oranges. For example, Jagrs numbers were pretty ridiculous that season in 05/06, to the point that its hard to really compare McDavids numbers to them. But as I mentioned above, Jagr blew everyone out of the water that year except Thornton and thats why the trophies ended up split. 2 guys lapped the field instead of just one like McDavid has been..

McDavid has not lapped the field. He has been fortunate to not miss any games the past two seasons while his closest competitors have.

 

[daver]

In Forsbergs dominant year, there were more people scoring 90 or 100 points than there was people scoring over 80 point in McDavids. So yeah Jagrs season was more impressive its just that one other guy completely lapped the field that year as well. Forsberg didnt lap the field, he didnt put up ridiculous numbers compared to the year McDavid did it, so looking at trophies and how much they won them by is a pretty fair way to say who was more dominant.

In Forsberg's 02/03 when he was on pace for 115 points, there were 16 PPG players in the Top 50. Last season there were 20 PPG players and McDavid put up 108.

 

[daver]

Figuring out who is the most productive in the context of the league should be the start of the conversation about who is actually better, not the end. Point totals are important stats, but things are never that black and white

Even if we disregard everything else besides offense, what is missing from the conversation? Forsberg was so good that year he didn't have to lower himself to get those easy PP points.

 

[psycat]

Hard to vote against McDavid here.

Not at all since he is worse than Forsberg was at his peak, so far I might add since I also firmly believe he will be better.

 

[Zamuz]

Draisatl was 8th in scoring and had a dominant playoffs.

I'll just use the seasons you compared them

In the games Forsberg played during 02/03-03/04 Colorado had a GF of 359, Forsberg was in on 44.8% of those goals.
In the games McDavid played during 16/17-18/19 (so far as of today) Edmonton had a GF of 514, McDavid was in on 44.7% of those goals.

02/03 Forsberg had 106 points, Hejduk had 98 points (50 goals), Tanguay had 67 points and Sakic 58 points (in 58 games)
03/04 Forsberg had 55 points (39 games), Sakic had 87 points, Tanguay had 79 points (in 69 games) and Hejduk had 75 points.

16/17 McDavid had 100 points, Draisaitl had 77 points, Eberle had 51 points, Lucic had 50 points
17/18 McDavid had 108 points, Draisaitl had 70 points, RNH had 48 points (62 games), Strome had 34 points


Forsberg played with 50 goal scoerer and multiple point per game players, are you comparing Forsbergs linemates to McDavids and saying they are close to equal?

 

[daver]

I'll just use the seasons you compared them


02/03 Forsberg had 106 points, Hejduk had 98 points (50 goals), Tanguay had 67 points and Sakic 58 points (in 58 games)
03/04 Forsberg had 55 points (39 games), Sakic had 87 points, Tanguay had 79 points (in 69 games) and Hejduk had 75 points.

16/17 McDavid had 100 points, Draisaitl had 77 points, Eberle had 51 points, Lucic had 50 points
17/18 McDavid had 108 points, Draisaitl had 70 points, RNH had 48 points (62 games), Strome had 34 points


Forsberg played with 50 goal scoerer and multiple point per game players, are you comparing Forsbergs linemates to McDavids and saying they are close to equal?

There is no reason to think that either player does worse or better if they switched places.

 

[edd1e]

Forsberg for me

 

[Zamuz]

There is no reason to think that either player does worse or better if they switched places.

yeah right, McDavid's point totals won't improve with better linemates.

 

[garyturner3]

None is this changes the fact that Forsberg's peak season is better than McDavid's.

You and the rest of the world define the word "fact" differently. Which is clear by how much McDavid is ahead in this poll. Here's another indication of who was more dominant compared to his peers....McDavid's Hart season he received 147 1st place votes out of a possible 167 which is 88% of the votes. Not even remotely close to his piers that season.

Forsberg's Hart winning season he received 38 or of 62 possible 1st place votes which is only 61%. I'm not sure how someone could look at those numbers and think Forsberg's peak season was better. It's not even close IMO and I loved watch Colorado in their powerhouse years. McDavid is just simply at a different level compared to his piers that Forsberg never reached.

 

[daver]

You and the rest of the world define the word "fact" differently. Which is clear by how much McDavid is ahead in this poll. Here's another indication of who was more dominant compared to his peers....McDavid's Hart season he received 147 1st place votes out of a possible 167 which is 88% of the votes. Not even remotely close to his piers that season.

Forsberg's Hart winning season he received 38 or of 62 possible 1st place votes which is only 61%. I'm not sure how someone could look at those numbers and think Forsberg's peak season was better. It's not even close IMO and I loved watch Colorado in their powerhouse years. McDavid is just simply at a different level compared to his piers that Forsberg never reached.

If Hart voting is so important, where was McDavid's Hart last year? He wasn't even nominated!

Sorry you are unable to apply context to their respective numbers.

 

[daver]

yeah right, McDavid's point totals won't improve with better linemates.

Why weren't they better in 16/17 when he had Draisatl on his line?

 

[slimbob8]

If Hart voting is so important, where was McDavid's Hart last year? He wasn't even nominated!

Sorry you are unable to apply context to their respective numbers.

It's common knowledge that Hart trophy winners typically come from playoff teams. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this. Forsberg's peak season was on a playoff team and he still only garnered 66% of the votes. If he was truly a level above his piers like you're claiming he would have run away with the voting that year like McDavid did the year his team made the playoffs.

 

[authentic]

You and the rest of the world define the word "fact" differently. Which is clear by how much McDavid is ahead in this poll. Here's another indication of who was more dominant compared to his peers....McDavid's Hart season he received 147 1st place votes out of a possible 167 which is 88% of the votes. Not even remotely close to his piers that season.

Forsberg's Hart winning season he received 38 or of 62 possible 1st place votes which is only 61%. I'm not sure how someone could look at those numbers and think Forsberg's peak season was better. It's not even close IMO and I loved watch Colorado in their powerhouse years. McDavid is just simply at a different level compared to his piers that Forsberg never reached.

The fact that you put more weight into Hart voting percentage than stats is rather odd.

 

[authentic]

It's common knowledge that Hart trophy winners typically come from playoff teams. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this. Forsberg's peak season was on a playoff team and he still only garnered 66% of the votes. If he was truly a level above his piers like you're claiming he would have run away with the voting that year like McDavid did the year his team made the playoffs.

The only reason he didn't run away with IMO is because he missed 7 games.

 

[daver]

It's common knowledge that Hart trophy winners typically come from playoff teams. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this. Forsberg's peak season was on a playoff team and he still only garnered 66% of the votes. If he was truly a level above his piers like you're claiming he would have run away with the voting that year like McDavid did the year his team made the playoffs.

It's common knowledge that playing 75 games instead of 82 means less points.

 

[clunk]

Peter Forsberg was one of my favourite non-Canucks to watch....

And this is McDavid.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

McDavid. Foppa had so much talent around him.

 

[daver]

McDavid. Foppa had so much talent around him.

So if Forsberg did a worse job of elevating his linemates production you would pick him?

 

[bathdog]

Seen you around on a few occasions and thought you were a reasonable poster but you've managed to cram a ton of nonsense in these few posts.

I was going to reply to that post but you put it pretty well. Peak Forsberg coudl definitely give McDavid a run for his money but I do think its hilarious how that poster tried to pawn off a four year peak where Forsberg was the best player when in reality he played about 2 seasons worth of games and they were broke up over several seasons.

Forsberg never hit the status of undisputed best player in the league like McDavid has now. In that ~2002-2006 time frame a few guys slugged it out for best in the league but none stood out as clearly the best until Corsby showed up. I remember Iginla on a season to season basis being considered right there as the best with others like Thornton, Lidstrom and even Naslund was considered better by the players the year Forsberg won the hart.

There are some good arguments stats wise in this thread and I think they both did peak close, but Forsberg absolutely never hit a peak where he was considered so clearly ahead of the other players like McDavid is considered currently. I also think that those years for Forsberg were an awkward time for the NHL. A lot of the old guard of superstars were on their way out and not a lot of new talent had entered the league yet. There wasnt any generational stars at that point in time so it was easier to be considered the best. McDavid separating himself from guys like Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby is more impressive than Forsberg not really separating himself from a group of guys who had really good peak 2 or 3 seasons but arent in the running for best all time arguments

I can't say I have much insight among fans of how he was perceived during this time frame, but he was not uncommonly referred to as the best player in the game in media, player polls, and coaches during this stretchs. Playing few games is obviously going to hurt you from a value perspective and makes you essentially ineligible for subjective awards. I can't really think anyone in their right minds would prefer Thornton, Iginla, or Naslund above him, not now, not then, for any other reason than health. Lidstrom was probably in the running, but he would've been during pretty much any time.

Jagr one year removed from potting 121 points and winning the Ross, and Sakic potting 118 points finishing 2nd in the scoring race, and winning the Smythe as he finished first in scoring in the playoffs doesn't constitute as competition, but Ovechkin 9 years removed from finishing top 3 in scoring, and never finishing first in playoffs scoring, and Malkin 7 years removed from finishing top 3 in scoring, and 1 year removed from leading the playoffs in scoring does? It just seems like complete and utter nonsense, a blantant case of double standard.

The old guard? Good grief. Jagr was 29, Sakic was 32, 2002. Ovechkin is currently 33, Malkin 32, Crosby 31.

Who does McDavid compete against that's so infinitely much better? Hint: This is where you mention Crosby and refer to his number half a decade ago.

Depends on how you look at it I guess. Statistically Forsberg may have had a better one peak season just breaking down the numbers. But like I said, he never had a season where he was the unanimous best player in the league and didnt dominate his peers to the extent McDavid does. For a guy people keep saying was the clear best in the league for an extended period of time, you would think he would have at least one Pearson/Lindsay award to his name, or maybe the players didnt think he was clearly the best at any point in his career?

McDavids 2016-17 season he got 96% of the hart vote compared to 02-03 Forsberg getting 82%.

McDavids 2016-17 season he won the Lindsay. 02-03 Forsberg was considered less outstanding than Markus Naslund by the players themselves.

McDavid 2016-17 season he led the league in points by 11. Forsberg 02-03 led by 2 but missed games. He was on pace to lead the league in scoring by 11 had he played all 82. So he couldnt stay as healthy, which is the story of Forsbergs career.

The numbers are and have always been there for Forsberg, that's why it's so hard to make the argument you're trying to make. It's not one season. It's one season, one playoff run, a stretch of playoff games, a stretch of regular season games, in most measurable ways, thats why you have to rely on subjective trophy voting records and arguments that aren't possible to test.

Yeah but those seasons are apples to oranges. For example, Jagrs numbers were pretty ridiculous that season in 05/06, to the point that its hard to really compare McDavids numbers to them. But as I mentioned above, Jagr blew everyone out of the water that year except Thornton and thats why the trophies ended up split. 2 guys lapped the field instead of just one like McDavid has been. 125 point seasons with no one hardly within 20 points for 2 guys isnt the same as comparing a Forsberg with a 2 point lead, that would've had the same point lead had he played all the games. Forsberg being on pace for 115 as a raw number is impressive but not when you consider its the same lead in points as McDavid had, and 7 others broke 90 that season (a couple with 100 as well). In that same year McDavid put up 100, there were a grand total of 0 90 point getters, 6 in the 80s and the rest were in the 70s.

In Forsbergs dominant year, there were more people scoring 90 or 100 points than there was people scoring over 80 point in McDavids. So yeah Jagrs season was more impressive its just that one other guy completely lapped the field that year as well. Forsberg didnt lap the field, he didnt put up ridiculous numbers compared to the year McDavid did it, so looking at trophies and how much they won them by is a pretty fair way to say who was more dominant.

Statistically 108 points is more than 100 but it doesnt mean it was necessarily a more dominant peak than McDavids year. The amount that he was voted for trophy wise compared to Forsberg helps illustrate that point.

More nonsense. It's clear you have little idea about different scoring environments. In no way shape or form was Jagr's 05/06 better than Forsberg 02/03. You probably also don't realize that Forsberg at the time of his injury in 05/06 had the same amount of points as Jagr in 4 less GP, and an 8 point lead on Thornton.

 

[Zamuz]

Why weren't they better in 16/17 when he had Draisatl on his line?

Why would a playmaker like Drai is be a better winger for McDavid than a potential 50 goal scorer who is a "shoot first"? also there is a 2nd winger and McDavid's most commong 2nd winger was Patrick Maroon.

The problem for McDavid is that there is really no real sniper in his team like Forsberg had Hejduk who could finish the plays.

 

[SlapshotTheMovie]

Most of the time, nope. And both Crosby and Malkin have shown they produce as well or better when the other is injured. Same with Sakic and Forsberg. It is just as reasonable to think that all those players would score more if they were a one man show.

So I guess you are the one who is a noob.

HAHAHAH you really are out there. Wild how coaches in the NHL disagree with you but thats cool. Stay in make believe land.

 

[daver]

Why would a playmaker like Drai is be a better winger for McDavid than a potential 50 goal scorer who is a "shoot first"? also there is a 2nd winger and McDavid's most commong 2nd winger was Patrick Maroon.

The problem for McDavid is that there is really no real sniper in his team like Forsberg had Hejduk who could finish the plays.

Wow, the best playmaker of his era was able have a player score 50 on his wing?! What a concept.

Forsberg was the better producer per game, thing like clear differences in roles and quality of linemates, % of offense can be viewed as a tiebreaker for players with similar production.

 

[daver]

HAHAHAH you really are out there. Wild how coaches in the NHL disagree with you but thats cool. Stay in make believe land.

Make believe land is disregarding stats with baseless speculation about how each player would do on a different team.

Make believe land is thinking McDavid would be producing so much better with better linemates. It's not the case this year. Same with a better PP will get him a bunch of extra points. So far he is 2nd in scoring and 4th in PPG despite being 1 point off the PP point lead..

 

[Flamesjustwin]

Floppa is the most overrated player in NHL history, I hate McDavid as he is an Oiler but he is an easy pick for me here.