Who is best Peter Forsberg at his peak Vs Connor McDavid now?

[authentic]

HAHAHAH you really are out there. Wild how coaches in the NHL disagree with you but thats cool. Stay in make believe land.

I think when dealing with players of this caliber he's right. Who was the #2 center in Philly when Forsberg scored 51 points in 28 games before his ankle gave out for good? Yeah I don't know either.

 

[authentic]

Floppa is the most overrated player in NHL history, I hate McDavid as he is an Oiler but he is an easy pick for me here.

Another one who doesn't have a clue.

 

[authentic]

Floppa is the most overrated player in NHL history, I hate McDavid as he is an Oiler but he is an easy pick for me here.

Another one who doesn't have a clue.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

So if Forsberg did a worse job of elevating his linemates production you would pick him?

No, he’d need to have a crappier cast.

 

[Zamuz]

Wow, the best playmaker of his era was able have a player score 50 on his wing?! What a concept.

Forsberg was the better producer per game, thing like clear differences in roles and quality of linemates, % of offense can be viewed as a tiebreaker for players with similar production.

Well look up Patrick Maroon and tell me he is a better player than Alex Tanguay was, because you are clearly indicating there is zero difference if we swap Maroon with Tanguay and zero difference if we swap Draisaitl with Hejduk.

Protip: Draisaitl won't score 50 neither won't Maroon

 

[Syrinx]

I voted McDavid just to contribute to the exploding heads.

 

[daver]

Well look up Patrick Maroon and tell me he is a better player than Alex Tanguay was, because you are clearly indicating there is zero difference if we swap Maroon with Tanguay and zero difference if we swap Draisaitl with Hejduk.

Protip: Draisaitl won't score 50 neither won't Maroon

What if Forsberg was given McDavid's icetime? What if Forsberg's team was playing in garbage time for the last 20 games of the season?

Who the hell cares? Actual production >>> speculated production with potential for bias

 

[daver]

No, he’d need to have a crappier cast.

You mean like in 97/98?

Forsberg - 91 points, 1.26 PPG
Kamensky - 66 points, 0.88 PPG
Sakic - 63 points, 0.98 PPG

 

[newfy]

Seen you around on a few occasions and thought you were a reasonable poster but you've managed to cram a ton of nonsense in these few posts.



I can't say I have much insight among fans of how he was perceived during this time frame, but he was not uncommonly referred to as the best player in the game in media, player polls, and coaches during this stretchs. Playing few games is obviously going to hurt you from a value perspective and makes you essentially ineligible for subjective awards. I can't really think anyone in their right minds would prefer Thornton, Iginla, or Naslund above him, not now, not then, for any other reason than health. Lidstrom was probably in the running, but he would've been during pretty much any time.

Jagr one year removed from potting 121 points and winning the Ross, and Sakic potting 118 points finishing 2nd in the scoring race, and winning the Smythe as he finished first in scoring in the playoffs doesn't constitute as competition, but Ovechkin 9 years removed from finishing top 3 in scoring, and never finishing first in playoffs scoring, and Malkin 7 years removed from finishing top 3 in scoring, and 1 year removed from leading the playoffs in scoring does? It just seems like complete and utter nonsense, a blantant case of double standard.

The old guard? Good grief. Jagr was 29, Sakic was 32, 2002. Ovechkin is currently 33, Malkin 32, Crosby 31.

Who does McDavid compete against that's so infinitely much better? Hint: This is where you mention Crosby and refer to his number half a decade ago.



The numbers are and have always been there for Forsberg, that's why it's so hard to make the argument you're trying to make. It's not one season. It's one season, one playoff run, a stretch of playoff games, a stretch of regular season games, in most measurable ways, thats why you have to rely on subjective trophy voting records and arguments that aren't possible to test.



More nonsense. It's clear you have little idea about different scoring environments. In no way shape or form was Jagr's 05/06 better than Forsberg 02/03. You probably also don't realize that Forsberg at the time of his injury in 05/06 had the same amount of points as Jagr in 4 less GP, and an 8 point lead on Thornton.

I'm not going to write a big, long post Ive said my piece but I would love to see some players polls or coaches polls that have him regarded as the best in the league at the time. The number one player poll to me as far as picking who they think is the best player is the Pearson, an award that Forsberg never won. The players have voted for players in the past that have missed some games as well. Like I said, he was consdiered one of the best but never the undisputed best, he was in a group of several guys. There were plenty of media people back then that would claim Iginla to be the best in the league, he would score 50, and do basically anything needed on the ice. Thornton had back to back 90 assist seasons. Plenty of people claimed them to be the best back then, yeah maybe it was fans I remember most, but have never seen a players or coaches poll that had Forsberg as for sure better during that time, especially in more than a single season.

As for what I was saying about the old guard, Sakic was never really considered a legit generational type of player. A lot of the previous generation were already slowing down at that point and that point in time was definitely a transitional period for the league. You act like Ovechkin isnt competition for a trophy because of his age but hes in the middle of a 5 year streak containing a hart trophy, 5 Richard trophies and a Conn Smythe. Crosby and Malkin are considered generational players (at least Crosby is, Malkin might be borderline. Even if those guys are slowing down though similarly to Forsbergs competition was, McDavid is still blowing them away more than Forsberg did.

Lastly, you say the numbers have always been there for Forsberg. I already said statistically he might have an argument for a single seaosn head to head but hes never stood out from the rest of the league like McDavid is right now. Thats shown in the award voting. Jagrs 05/06 season adjusted might be less than adjusting for Forsbergs season, however there is also something ot be said about dominating your peers. Forberg with a 2 point lead isnt necessarily as impressive as dummying everyone in the league besides Thornton.

Raw numbers Forsberg might have it but hes never stood out form the rest of the league the way McDavid has the last couple seasons

 

[JerseyMike34]

Forsberg. Different style of game overall. McDavid would never be able to use his speed in the era that Forsberg was in his peak.

 

[bobbyking]

Forsberg. Different style of game overall. McDavid would never be able to use his speed in the era that Forsberg was in his peak.

Yeah like bure

 

[authentic]

Well look up Patrick Maroon and tell me he is a better player than Alex Tanguay was, because you are clearly indicating there is zero difference if we swap Maroon with Tanguay and zero difference if we swap Draisaitl with Hejduk.

Protip: Draisaitl won't score 50 neither won't Maroon

Outside of that season with Forsberg he never scored more than 36 and Draisaitl handily outscored McDavid in their playoff run. Could you imagine Hejduk or Tanguay nearly doubling Forsberg in points in the playoffs?

 

[authentic]

I'm not going to write a big, long post Ive said my piece but I would love to see some players polls or coaches polls that have him regarded as the best in the league at the time. The number one player poll to me as far as picking who they think is the best player is the Pearson, an award that Forsberg never won. The players have voted for players in the past that have missed some games as well. Like I said, he was consdiered one of the best but never the undisputed best, he was in a group of several guys. There were plenty of media people back then that would claim Iginla to be the best in the league, he would score 50, and do basically anything needed on the ice. Thornton had back to back 90 assist seasons. Plenty of people claimed them to be the best back then, yeah maybe it was fans I remember most, but have never seen a players or coaches poll that had Forsberg as for sure better during that time, especially in more than a single season.

As for what I was saying about the old guard, Sakic was never really considered a legit generational type of player. A lot of the previous generation were already slowing down at that point and that point in time was definitely a transitional period for the league. You act like Ovechkin isnt competition for a trophy because of his age but hes in the middle of a 5 year streak containing a hart trophy, 5 Richard trophies and a Conn Smythe. Crosby and Malkin are considered generational players (at least Crosby is, Malkin might be borderline. Even if those guys are slowing down though similarly to Forsbergs competition was, McDavid is still blowing them away more than Forsberg did.

Lastly, you say the numbers have always been there for Forsberg. I already said statistically he might have an argument for a single seaosn head to head but hes never stood out from the rest of the league like McDavid is right now. Thats shown in the award voting. Jagrs 05/06 season adjusted might be less than adjusting for Forsbergs season, however there is also something ot be said about dominating your peers. Forberg with a 2 point lead isnt necessarily as impressive as dummying everyone in the league besides Thornton.

Raw numbers Forsberg might have it but hes never stood out form the rest of the league the way McDavid has the last couple seasons

He didn't win it in 2002-03 because at the time of voting he wasn't leading in points, mostly because of the missed games. He was voted best player several times throughout his career by coaches and players though, the first time was in 1997 actually after Lemieux retired. He was on the cover of a book called the hockey 300 and they voted him the best player after Lemieux retired ahead of Lindros, Jagr and Kariya. I own the book but I can't find it online, you can't just make this stuff up.

 

[newfy]

He didn't win it in 2002-03 because at the time of voting he wasn't leading in points, mostly because of the missed games. He was voted best player several times throughout his career by coaches and players though, the first time was in 1997 actually after Lemieux retired. He was on the cover of a book called the hockey 300 and they voted him the best player after Lemieux retired ahead of Lindros, Jagr and Kariya. I own the book but I can't find it online, you can't just make this stuff up.

Yep I got going there and couldnt help myself lol

I'm not saying youre making it up either, but you literally can just make it up if you wanted to haha. I distinctly remember Iginla being talked about as the best back then at points

 

[Andrei79]

Love Forbserg, but this is McDavid easily.

 

[authentic]

Yep I got going there and couldnt help myself lol

I'm not saying youre making it up either, but you literally can just make it up if you wanted to haha. I distinctly remember Iginla being talked about as the best back then at points

In 2001-02 when Forsberg didn't play which was Iginla's best season. Some people thought Naslund was the best or even Bertuzzi for a bit, some people think Crosby or Malkin are as good or better than McDavid these past few seasons.

 

[AngelDuck]

This idea that there were 5-10 players playing at once in the 90s that were better than the best player in the world right now is a weird mantra that floats around these boards.

 

[authentic]

McDavid is going to go down as a top 5 player in NHL history. Forsberg doesn't even come close. Sorry buddy.

It seems to me you and MordredGK are still not aware what the poll question is.

 

[authentic]

This idea that there were 5-10 players playing at once in the 90s that were better than the best player in the world right now is a weird mantra that floats around these boards.

The idea that McDavid is already clearly better than Lemieux, Jagr, Lindros, Fedorov, Sakic and Forsberg at their peaks is also false. It's definitely still debatable until McDavid puts up another few dominant seasons and playoff run.

 

[AngelDuck]

The idea that McDavid is already clearly better than Lemieux, Jagr, Lindros, Fedorov, Sakic and Forsberg at their peaks is also false. It's definitely still debatable until McDavid puts up another few dominant seasons and playoff run.

I said 5-10 players. The first 4 that you listed there is a strong argument for. Past that you start really reaching to say they are better than the current best player.

 

[Silky mitts]

I have Mcdavid better in relation to Crosby than Forsberg in relation to Jagr plus Crosby ahead of Jagr so Mcdavid

 

[authentic]

I said 5-10 players. The first 4 that you listed there is a strong argument for. Past that you start really reaching to say they are better than the current best player.

Weird because Forsberg and Sakic were better than Lindros and Fedorov for career and had similar peaks.

 

[AngelDuck]

Weird because Forsberg and Sakic were better than Lindros and Fedorov for career and had similar peaks.

And none of them are better than McDavid. Weird

 

[authentic]

And none of them are better than McDavid. Weird

It went from strong argument to none are better than McDavid. Weirder. If we're comparing them at 21 you would be correct but we're not.

 

[daver]

This idea that there were 5-10 players playing at once in the 90s that were better than the best player in the world right now is a weird mantra that floats around these boards.

Could you be little less specific?

 

[bathdog]

I'm not going to write a big, long post Ive said my piece but I would love to see some players polls or coaches polls that have him regarded as the best in the league at the time. The number one player poll to me as far as picking who they think is the best player is the Pearson, an award that Forsberg never won. The players have voted for players in the past that have missed some games as well. Like I said, he was consdiered one of the best but never the undisputed best, he was in a group of several guys. There were plenty of media people back then that would claim Iginla to be the best in the league, he would score 50, and do basically anything needed on the ice. Thornton had back to back 90 assist seasons. Plenty of people claimed them to be the best back then, yeah maybe it was fans I remember most, but have never seen a players or coaches poll that had Forsberg as for sure better during that time, especially in more than a single season.

As for what I was saying about the old guard, Sakic was never really considered a legit generational type of player. A lot of the previous generation were already slowing down at that point and that point in time was definitely a transitional period for the league. You act like Ovechkin isnt competition for a trophy because of his age but hes in the middle of a 5 year streak containing a hart trophy, 5 Richard trophies and a Conn Smythe. Crosby and Malkin are considered generational players (at least Crosby is, Malkin might be borderline. Even if those guys are slowing down though similarly to Forsbergs competition was, McDavid is still blowing them away more than Forsberg did.

Lastly, you say the numbers have always been there for Forsberg. I already said statistically he might have an argument for a single seaosn head to head but hes never stood out from the rest of the league like McDavid is right now. Thats shown in the award voting. Jagrs 05/06 season adjusted might be less than adjusting for Forsbergs season, however there is also something ot be said about dominating your peers. Forberg with a 2 point lead isnt necessarily as impressive as dummying everyone in the league besides Thornton.

Raw numbers Forsberg might have it but hes never stood out form the rest of the league the way McDavid has the last couple seasons

There was a poll just earlier this year that polled 500 NHL players who the best forwards of all time were, Gretzky and Lemieux obviously swallowed the vast majority of votes, but Forsberg ranked 5th (Crosby, Jagr just ahead, all 3 had < 5% votes) in best forward of all time, 4th in who would you like as your teammate, and 1st in who was your favorite player growing up. Needless to say I don't agree with those rankings much at all, but there is something to be said about making such lists when, according to you, he was never deemed to be the best in the game. It's fairly obvious the polled players probably played post-80s and as such discriminate against players pre-80s, but that isn't really relevant here since no such player is present in the current discussion.

NHLPA Player Poll 2017-18

I don't have older at hand and it seems somewhat hard to locate with a quick google, so I'm not going to spend a ton of time trying to convince you.

Forsberg didn't play a single game during Iginla's peak season, Iginla's ppg that year is better than 1 of Forsberg 9 consecutive prime seasons. If wanna argue he's better for any other reason than being in the lineup I don't really know what to tell you. He was a great player, but beyond goal scoring the only thing he did better was dropping the gloves more frequently.

Ovechkin hasn't been competition for McDavid AT ALL. McDavid hasn't been a real threat for the Rocket and that's the only thing Ovechkin has been competing for during McDavid's tenure in the league. Ovechkin won the Smythe last year, and Crosby and Malkin have been great in the playoffs, but McDavid hasn't ever been remotely closing to being in the running for it so not sure why that is relevant. Malkin was great last year, but he clearly removed from his peak and missed a handful of games. McDavid did compete against Crosby one year, that's true, but the roles were reversed;

McDavid: 82GP
Crosby: 75GP

Forsberg: 75GP
Naslund: 82GP

A player playing ~10% less games is at a disadvantage, that goes without saying, and comparing a win margin without taking such into context isn't particularly fair in evaluating performance - only value.

Again, I can always respect people having different opinions, but when your argument revolves around something that's factually incorrect I take issue with that.

This is how their respective PPG's compared to their peers gap wise over the time frame (01/02-02/04, 16/17-18/19 as of today).

Regular season.

Forsberg
35.6% Jagr
39.6% Sakic
(28.2% Thornton, 22.6% Naslund, 8.5% Lemieux)

McDavid
4.1% Malkin
13.3% Crosby
30.6% Ovechkin

Playoffs.

Forsberg
14.2% Modano
14.2% St Louis
17.6% Sakic

Shall I list McDavid's playoff numbers?

As I said, it's not about 1 season, 1 playoff run, 1 peer, 1 stretch of games, it's across the board in everything but possibly goal scoring. In one of your earlier posts you said injuries was the story of Forsberg's career, and that's about the only thing you got correct as far as I'm concerned. If we're talking about who is more valuable, that's a whole different story.