Who is best Peter Forsberg at his peak Vs Connor McDavid now?

[newfy]

There was a poll just earlier this year that polled 500 NHL players who the best forwards of all time were, Gretzky and Lemieux obviously swallowed the vast majority of votes, but Forsberg ranked 5th (Crosby, Jagr just ahead, all 3 had < 5% votes) in best forward of all time, 4th in who would you like as your teammate, and 1st in who was your favorite player growing up. Needless to say I don't agree with those rankings much at all, but there is something to be said about making such lists when, according to you, he was never deemed to be the best in the game. It's fairly obvious the polled players probably played post-80s and as such discriminate against players pre-80s, but that isn't really relevant here since no such player is present in the current discussion.

NHLPA Player Poll 2017-18

I don't have older at hand and it seems somewhat hard to locate with a quick google, so I'm not going to spend a ton of time trying to convince you.

Forsberg didn't play a single game during Iginla's peak season, Iginla's ppg that year is better than 1 of Forsberg 9 consecutive prime seasons. If wanna argue he's better for any other reason than being in the lineup I don't really know what to tell you. He was a great player, but beyond goal scoring the only thing he did better was dropping the gloves more frequently.

Ovechkin hasn't been competition for McDavid AT ALL. McDavid hasn't been a real threat for the Rocket and that's the only thing Ovechkin has been competing for during McDavid's tenure in the league. Ovechkin won the Smythe last year, and Crosby and Malkin have been great in the playoffs, but McDavid hasn't ever been remotely closing to being in the running for it so not sure why that is relevant. Malkin was great last year, but he clearly removed from his peak and missed a handful of games. McDavid did compete against Crosby one year, that's true, but the roles were reversed;

McDavid: 82GP
Crosby: 75GP

Forsberg: 75GP
Naslund: 82GP

A player playing ~10% less games is at a disadvantage, that goes without saying, and comparing a win margin without taking such into context isn't particularly fair in evaluating performance - only value.

Again, I can always respect people having different opinions, but when your argument revolves around something that's factually incorrect I take issue with that.

This is how their respective PPG's compared to their peers gap wise over the time frame (01/02-02/04, 16/17-18/19 as of today).

Regular season.

Forsberg
35.6% Jagr
39.6% Sakic
(28.2% Thornton, 22.6% Naslund, 8.5% Lemieux)

McDavid
4.1% Malkin
13.3% Crosby
30.6% Ovechkin

Playoffs.

Forsberg
14.2% Modano
14.2% St Louis
17.6% Sakic

Shall I list McDavid's playoff numbers?

As I said, it's not about 1 season, 1 playoff run, 1 peer, 1 stretch of games, it's across the board in everything but possibly goal scoring. In one of your earlier posts you said injuries was the story of Forsberg's career, and that's about the only thing you got correct as far as I'm concerned. If we're talking about who is more valuable, that's a whole different story.

I'm not sure what I said thats factually incorrect. People did consider Iginla one of the best at a point right around Forsbergs peak, they also considered Forsberg, Naslund, Thornton and a few others. No one did enough to stand out from the others back then. You might think they did by going back and examining point per games and things like that but the fact of the matter is that back then it wasnt like that. I've already said you can probably break down the numbers statistically and make Forsbergs year look better possibly, I havent and I honestly didnt read half your post about the numbers because I'm not really interested. Me reading those numbers isnt going to change the truth from how people felt back in 2002-2006. You talk about Iginlas point per game but youre inentionally leaving out goals per game, a lot of people will take ten or so less points for double the goals. This was the argument for Iginla (plus his all around game) for top player in the league. Once again, he has a Pearson, an actual vote by players at the time for most outstanding player in the league or who they considered the best. Thats not a poll done by players that were 5 years old at the time 15 years later

What I'm saying is that breaking down numbers now doesnt change how players were viewed back then. You might think he was the best once you break down his numbers but he was never considered the clear best player in the league AT THE TIME.

And I really couldnt care less if you find a modern player poll that says anything about Forsberg. A lot of players in the league were maybe 5 years old at the time of his peak. Cullen is the oldest player in the league now and he played over half his career without Forsberg in the league at 42. Why would you think a 25 year old NHL player would have any more insight than people who actually were alive and watching hockey back then? Forsberg has a great youtube highlight reel, thats what the majority of these players have likely seen of him. Its going tobe more exciting than Thorntons highliht reel, and skill wise more exciting than Iginlas.

Find something from the time

 

[bathdog]

I'm not sure what I said thats factually incorrect. People did consider Iginla one of the best at a point right around Forsbergs peak, they also considered Forsberg, Naslund, Thornton and a few others. No one did enough to stand out from the others back then. You might think they did by going back and examining point per games and things like that but the fact of the matter is that back then it wasnt like that. I've already said you can probably break down the numbers statistically and make Forsbergs year look better possibly, I havent and I honestly didnt read half your post about the numbers because I'm not really interested. Me reading those numbers isnt going to change the truth from how people felt back in 2002-2006. You talk about Iginlas point per game but youre inentionally leaving out goals per game, a lot of people will take ten or so less points for double the goals. This was the argument for Iginla (plus his all around game) for top player in the league. Once again, he has a Pearson, an actual vote by players at the time for most outstanding player in the league or who they considered the best. Thats not a poll done by players that were 5 years old at the time 15 years later

What I'm saying is that breaking down numbers now doesnt change how players were viewed back then. You might think he was the best once you break down his numbers but he was never considered the clear best player in the league AT THE TIME.

And I really couldnt care less if you find a modern player poll that says anything about Forsberg. A lot of players in the league were maybe 5 years old at the time of his peak. Cullen is the oldest player in the league now and he played over half his career without Forsberg in the league at 42. Why would you think a 25 year old NHL player would have any more insight than people who actually were alive and watching hockey back then? Forsberg has a great youtube highlight reel, thats what the majority of these players have likely seen of him. Its going tobe more exciting than Thorntons highliht reel, and skill wise more exciting than Iginlas.

Find something from the time

So, we're down to evaluating players based on the perception [of whom?] of who is the best player in the world at the time, instead of making comparisons of "things like that". That bodes well.

I thought you didn't read half my post, how can you then say I intentionally left out goals per game? I didn't leave out the fact that Iginla was a better goal scorer.

You've said a couple of times that McDavid has distanced himself from Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin to a larger degree than Forsberg did from Sakic, and Jagr, at the time, which is factually incorrect statistically.

It's kind of hard to find old hockey content, because Internet and worldwide hockey coverage just wasn't the same during late 90s and early 00s. There was definitely a players poll from 05/06 where Forsberg was voted first by a wide margin, but it's gone since old posts from here were erased. Here is an another article from 2005: Forsberg Named the World's Best

Have a go at the NHL archives yourself.

 

[newfy]

So, we're down to evaluating players based on the perception [of whom?] of who is the best player in the world at the time, instead of making comparisons of "things like that". That bodes well.

I thought you didn't read half my post, how can you then say I intentionally left out goals per game? I didn't leave out the fact that Iginla was a better goal scorer.

You've said a couple of times that McDavid has distanced himself from Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin to a larger degree than Forsberg did from Sakic, and Jagr, at the time, which is factually incorrect statistically.

It's kind of hard to find old hockey content, because Internet and worldwide hockey coverage just wasn't the same during late 90s and early 00s. There was definitely a players poll from 05/06 where Forsberg was voted first by a wide margin, but it's gone since old posts from here were erased. Here is an another article from 2005: Forsberg Named the World's Best

Have a go at the NHL archives yourself.

I dont know what youre down to evaluating players on, I have already said Forsberg might have been better, youre just too emotionally caught up in an argument to realize that. What I've said is that Forsberg was never considered the best in the league the way that McDavid is now. You say thats factually incorrect statistically but I was alive to know what the perceptions of the players were back then. You might be able to produce their points per games and things like that and in hindsight say Forsberg was the clear best player back then, but thats not what fans and people thought around the league. Some had Forsberg as the best for sure (he deserves to be up there) but if you want to try to tell me Iginla, Thornton, Jagr or Naslund werent also argued right there with Forsberg youre revising history based on a hockeydb stats page. McDavid is considered the best in the league now, a group of a few players battled it out back then until Crosby came in the league and took up the title.

And yes it is hard to find old hockey content, so unless you can find proof of a coaches poll or players poll from back then claiming Forsberg is the best I'm sorry if I dont believe that plenty of them exist. There is a legit players poll called the Lester B Pearson trophy that picks the best player in the league and around Forsbergs peak year that trophy went to Iginla, Naslund and St Louis.

I clearly remember him being in a grouping with several of the best but never considered for sure the best. The players never voted him the best for a single regular season. Use stats to prove Forsbergs better all you want, it very well could be true but dont make up stuff about the perception of the league at the time. He was never considered the clear cut best. Full stop

 

[The Alien]

Splitting hairs, really, but then what does peak mean? Sustained peak or best 10 games? Anyways, I went Foppa. Although Peak McDavid oughtta be the best.

 

[daver]

I dont know what youre down to evaluating players on, I have already said Forsberg might have been better, youre just too emotionally caught up in an argument to realize that. What I've said is that Forsberg was never considered the best in the league the way that McDavid is now. You say thats factually incorrect statistically but I was alive to know what the perceptions of the players were back then. You might be able to produce their points per games and things like that and in hindsight say Forsberg was the clear best player back then, but thats not what fans and people thought around the league. Some had Forsberg as the best for sure (he deserves to be up there) but if you want to try to tell me Iginla, Thornton, Jagr or Naslund werent also argued right there with Forsberg youre revising history based on a hockeydb stats page. McDavid is considered the best in the league now, a group of a few players battled it out back then until Crosby came in the league and took up the title.

What exactly does this have to do with a direct comparison of the two players?

And Crosby was considered the best player in the world after 16/17 anyways.

 

[authentic]

I dont know what youre down to evaluating players on, I have already said Forsberg might have been better, youre just too emotionally caught up in an argument to realize that. What I've said is that Forsberg was never considered the best in the league the way that McDavid is now. You say thats factually incorrect statistically but I was alive to know what the perceptions of the players were back then. You might be able to produce their points per games and things like that and in hindsight say Forsberg was the clear best player back then, but thats not what fans and people thought around the league. Some had Forsberg as the best for sure (he deserves to be up there) but if you want to try to tell me Iginla, Thornton, Jagr or Naslund werent also argued right there with Forsberg youre revising history based on a hockeydb stats page. McDavid is considered the best in the league now, a group of a few players battled it out back then until Crosby came in the league and took up the title.

And yes it is hard to find old hockey content, so unless you can find proof of a coaches poll or players poll from back then claiming Forsberg is the best I'm sorry if I dont believe that plenty of them exist. There is a legit players poll called the Lester B Pearson trophy that picks the best player in the league and around Forsbergs peak year that trophy went to Iginla, Naslund and St Louis.

I clearly remember him being in a grouping with several of the best but never considered for sure the best. The players never voted him the best for a single regular season. Use stats to prove Forsbergs better all you want, it very well could be true but dont make up stuff about the perception of the league at the time. He was never considered the clear cut best. Full stop

He was voted as the best in 1997-98 (pretty sure that was coaches, GMs and hockey writers though), in 2005-06 by the players in January and won the Hart in 2002-03 while missing 7 games, I don't know how they don't come up when I search them because I've seen the poll here before more than a few times and I own the book.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Imagine what McDavid’s legacy is going to be around here once his career is over? Some many posters love romanticizing the careers and peaks of Forsberg and Lindros so much, so imagine someone who was actually the best player in the league for extended period of time?

 

[RedWingzz]

McDavid

I would make a serious argument that McDavid is the most talented player of all time.

 

[authentic]

And none of them are better than McDavid. Weird

At their peaks? 54 goals 118 points 2nd in Selke voting, and 106 points in 75 games and +52 both in an even lower scoring season than last year are clearly worse in what way?

 

[authentic]

McDavid

I would make a serious argument that McDavid is the most talented player of all time.

Lemieux, Gretzky, Orr... Looks like he has his work cut out for him before we can start entertaining that idea.