Speculation: Who is a good General Manager? Perhaps it's the luckiest one?

[Dekes For Days]

Keeping sparks over mcback up, over paying RFA's, trading kadri for an offensive dman and a lesser player, not getting a decent back up for months etc.

-Kept young, homegrown calder cup winning AHL goalie of the year as backup over 35-year old journeyman who had fluked into something he had never done before, and would never do again, and who was going to price himself out within a year. Had no impact on final placement in standings.
-Paid an appropriate amount for two of the best RFAs in the cap era.
-Traded a declining miscast player who had been suspended two years in a row in the playoffs for a minor downgrade at 3C, and our best RHD at an amazing price that improved an area of weakness that had been consistently exploited; zone exits from the right side defense.
-Hutchinson was not bad for us in 2018-2019. By all accounts, Dubas started looking for backup options as soon as issues arose. Got one of the best options at a good price.

 

[rent free]

You dont end up with the 5th most goals against league wide by playing well defensively.

To be fair, a big part of why we are near the bottom of the table in goals against stems from poor goaltending.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You dont end up with the 5th most goals against league wide by playing well defensively.

It's 6th most, and you most certainly do when your goalie can't stop a puck. Leafs were middle-of-the-pack defensively, which was an improvement over the 26th best defense of the previous 3 years.

 

[Big Muddy]

Haven't paid attention to this thread, but going to guess its devolved into argument over whether Dubas has done a great job or not. Some will defend every move KD makes, others won't. Seems like deja-vu. Could be a bit of both (good & bad). Personally, I'm still evaluating.

 

[The Podium]

Could be my perception is incorrect but I don’t think anyone wants him fired yet(ignoring that there are always a few wildcards amongst us). I do think that there are varying levels of confidence in what has transpired so far, which is valid,IMO.

Yup, I'd say im indifferent on Dubas, dont love every move and dont want him fired ASAP. I'd be willing to give him another season or 2. What irks me though are the ones who cant see the good at all and try to tear him down without considering context.

That isnt our season pace though.

Dubas was gm for the whole season. You cant just break it down into parts to suit your narrative.

Our pace for the season is ~95 points. That's a decline of 5 points/ season under dubas.

Glad you mentioned injuries. Dont you find it interesting that we were so much healthier when lou was in charge?

Another thing is we seemed to get much better goal tending while lou was here.

Is everything just coincidences and none of it is on dubas?

Or, just maybe, the fact a rookie gm with no pro experience changed over 50% of the team with zero muscle resulted in our regression and lots of injuries.

I know which I find more realistic.

Did you really just argue that the Leafs are more injured and Andersen was worse because Dubas is the GM... I dont even....

Go back and look at Lous roster, where was the D? Where was the muscle? Some of you have this fallacy that this team was the Broad Street Bullies with the 90's NJ D before Dubas took over, when in fact they were softer and had a worse D.

 

[The Podium]

You dont end up with the 5th most goals against league wide by playing well defensively.

You do when you have the worst goaltending in the league despite the best underlying defensive metrics this team has had in years.

 

[Legion34]

That isnt our season pace though.

Dubas was gm for the whole season. You cant just break it down into parts to suit your narrative.

Our pace for the season is ~95 points. That's a decline of 5 points/ season under dubas.

Glad you mentioned injuries. Dont you find it interesting that we were so much healthier when lou was in charge?

Another thing is we seemed to get much better goal tending while lou was here.

Is everything just coincidences and none of it is on dubas?

Or, just maybe, the fact a rookie gm with no pro experience changed over 50% of the team with zero muscle resulted in our regression and lots of injuries.

I know which I find more realistic.

I agree that the whole season is on dubas. Including hutch. But it’s not about zero muscle. The leafs were on a 107 pt pace with anyone not named hutch in net. Including KK and Freddie playing like he is drunk for half the season

 

[IPS]

That isnt our season pace though.

Dubas was gm for the whole season. You cant just break it down into parts to suit your narrative.

Our pace for the season is ~95 points. That's a decline of 5 points/ season under dubas.

Glad you mentioned injuries. Dont you find it interesting that we were so much healthier when lou was in charge?

Another thing is we seemed to get much better goal tending while lou was here.

Is everything just coincidences and none of it is on dubas?

Or, just maybe, the fact a rookie gm with no pro experience changed over 50% of the team with zero muscle resulted in our regression and lots of injuries.

I know which I find more realistic.

Keeping Babcock was possibly the stupidest move Dubas/Shanahan made (I'm not sure who was responsible for it). He never used the team how it was meant to be used, intentionally limiting TOI of our best players. The team clearly tuned him out, and we saw major problems in effort from our star players (mainly Matthews). This all changed quick once he finally got fired.

No secret why the point pace drastically got better under Keefe, he uses the team how it should be used. We're paying ~$40M to 4 players, you need to stack them up with ice-time if you want to get anywhere. Babcock's ice-time allocation was completely stupid.

I think using the point pace under the coach who actually uses the roster properly isn't cherry-picking at all.


"Glad you mentioned injuries. Dont you find it interesting that we were so much healthier when lou was in charge"

Wait what? Did the sports science team change between seasons or something? You're trying to tell me what you find realistic while trying to tell me there's some mythical link between the team's health and who's the GM?


"Or, just maybe, the fact a rookie gm with no pro experience changed over 50% of the team with zero muscle resulted in our regression and lots of injuries."

Who specifically did Lou make sure was in the lineup to somehow prevent injuries?

This post is a complete mess.

 

[Garthinater]

I never said there was nothing he can do, but he did not have the same flexibility and was more reliant on individual progression rather than bringing high dollar players in to improve the team.

Youre talking about Nylander, Matthews, Marner going from less than 3 mill to almost 30mill over the course of 2 years. Even if you think as a collective they are overpaid, theyd still be somewhere around 25 mill. Not to mention raises needed for Hyman, Brown, Holl, Johnsson and Kapanen.

You lose depth like Bozak, JVR, Hainsey, Komarov, Gardiner, etc.

Then you have anchor contracts Lou left him in Zaitsev and Marleau that needed sweetners to dump.

Now on top of cleaning up the mess, re-signing his young stars, and replacing lost depth as best as he could at minimal cap (Mikheyev), he had to improve the D with as little cap as possible. He did well with Muzzin, dropped the ball on Barrie.

He has also been on the job for less than 2 seasons, so how is he solely responsible for a 3 year "decline" in your mind?

You said we were "set to be downgraded". Those are your words.

Where is this "3 years" coming from? You seem slightly confused.

Dubas took over may 11 2018. We have since then played the 2018-2019 season and most of the 19-20 season. That's 2 seasons.

What do you mean, "cleaning up the mess"?

When lou left we had just reached 105 points and we had loads of cap space.

Dubas inherited one of the best and youngest teams in the league. Most gm's would kill for that kind of opportunity.

What exactly did dubas clean up? Trading a 1st to get rid of one year of Marleau is like dumping the mop bucket all over the floor.

Do you forget what lou had to do when he took over? He got us out of that phaneuf deal and managed to trade kessel. That is quite a bit more "cleaing" than what dubas had to do.

Within 2 years of dubas taking over, he has managed to spend all of the Cap space we had, traded one of our most team friendly contracts (kadri), lost mcback up for sparks, and saw us fall to barely a playoff team.

Dubas didnt have to spend to the cap. Dubas didnt have to get rid of jvr and bozak. We werent "set to be downgraded."

Those are things he decided to do.

 

[kb]

Could be my perception is incorrect but I don’t think anyone wants him fired yet(ignoring that there are always a few wildcards amongst us). I do think that there are varying levels of confidence in what has transpired so far, which is valid,IMO.

Agreed. The wild cards tend to make themselves heard the most.

But I see references to the 105 point season being used as proof the Leafs are "regressing". That season they were coming off a season with no major injuries (Matthews excepted), very solid and timely goaltending, plus a ton of success in the shootout.

This season was basically the polar opposite with a coaching change, several major injuries to key players, sub par goaltending most of the year, and no success in the shootout.

Yet through all that, they were still on a pace to finish in the playoffs. Don't think the word regression can be used intelligently to describe the difference in that season to this.

 

[The Podium]

You said we were "set to be downgraded". Those are your words.

Where is this "3 years" coming from? You seem slightly confused.

Dubas took over may 11 2018. We have since then played the 2018-2019 season and most of the 19-20 season. That's 2 seasons.

What do you mean, "cleaning up the mess"?

When lou left we had just reached 105 points and we had loads of cap space.

Dubas inherited one of the best and youngest teams in the league. Most gm's would kill for that kind of opportunity.

What exactly did dubas clean up? Trading a 1st to get rid of one year of Marleau is like dumping the mop bucket all over the floor.

Do you forget what lou had to do when he took over? He got us out of that phaneuf deal and managed to trade kessel. That is quite a bit more "cleaing" than what dubas had to do.

Within 2 years of dubas taking over, he has managed to spend all of the Cap space we had, traded one of our most team friendly contracts (kadri), lost mcback up for sparks, and saw us fall to barely a playoff team.

Dubas didnt have to spend to the cap. Dubas didnt have to get rid of jvr and bozak. We werent "set to be downgraded."

Those are things he decided to do.

When Lou left we had loads of cap space because Nylander, Marner and Matthews were not re-signed yet... We werent going to have cap moving forward and it was well known at the time. Not to mention they added another 1C in Tavares since that time.

Getting rid of 6 mill cap, 4.5 mill in real dollars to a team that was forced to buy him out isnt an easy task. Dubas also got rid of Zaitsev for nothing.

Lou didnt trade Kessel genius, Dubas did.

Dubas had to sign Nylander, Marner, Matthews, added Tavares and Muzzin. That doesnt seem like wasted cap space.

Kadri needed to go, it was inefficient to be spending money on a 3C and we needed a RHD. It was a poor target (Barrie), Ill agree, but it was the right idea. Unfortunately it didnt work out. One of my biggest criticisms of Dubas.

Technically our backup is Campbell now, Sparks over McBackup ill defend. You dont lose your AHL goalie of the year and Calder cup winner/MVP for a 35+ year old journey man coming off a career year, again it unfortunately didnt work out, but lets not pretend you wouldnt have made the same move.

Tell me how Bozak and JVR didnt have to go? Also check out their contract length, cap space, and production. Cutting them loose wasnt a bad move considering they are cap dumps at this point.

 

[Legion34]

You said we were "set to be downgraded". Those are your words.

Where is this "3 years" coming from? You seem slightly confused.

Dubas took over may 11 2018. We have since then played the 2018-2019 season and most of the 19-20 season. That's 2 seasons.

What do you mean, "cleaning up the mess"?

When lou left we had just reached 105 points and we had loads of cap space.

Dubas inherited one of the best and youngest teams in the league. Most gm's would kill for that kind of opportunity.

What exactly did dubas clean up? Trading a 1st to get rid of one year of Marleau is like dumping the mop bucket all over the floor.

Do you forget what lou had to do when he took over? He got us out of that phaneuf deal and managed to trade kessel. That is quite a bit more "cleaing" than what dubas had to do.

Within 2 years of dubas taking over, he has managed to spend all of the Cap space we had, traded one of our most team friendly contracts (kadri), lost mcback up for sparks, and saw us fall to barely a playoff team.

Dubas didnt have to spend to the cap. Dubas didnt have to get rid of jvr and bozak. We werent "set to be downgraded."

Those are things he decided to do.

wait. Bozak and JVR signed for 12. What was lou going to get them for?

 

[Garthinater]

Keeping Babcock was possibly the stupidest move Dubas/Shanahan made (I'm not sure who was responsible for it). He never used the team how it was meant to be used, intentionally limiting TOI of our best players. The team clearly tuned him out, and we saw major problems in effort from our star players (mainly Matthews). This all changed quick once he finally got fired.

No secret why the point pace drastically got better under Keefe, he uses the team how it should be used. We're paying ~$40M to 4 players, you need to stack them up with ice-time if you want to get anywhere. Babcock's ice-time allocation was completely stupid.

I think using the point pace under the coach who actually uses the roster properly isn't cherry-picking at all.


"Glad you mentioned injuries. Dont you find it interesting that we were so much healthier when lou was in charge"

Wait what? Did the sports science team change between seasons or something? You're trying to tell me what you find realistic while trying to tell me there's some mythical link between the team's health and who's the GM?


"Or, just maybe, the fact a rookie gm with no pro experience changed over 50% of the team with zero muscle resulted in our regression and lots of injuries."

Who specifically did Lou make sure was in the lineup to somehow prevent injuries?

This post is a complete mess.

The amount of hate spewed at Babcock from his fan base is embarrassing.

Yeah, things changed quickly when keefe took over. We were hot for 20 games and then fell back to our pace very quickly again. Our last 27 games we were barely over .500. That is not improvement.

the pace was 103 pts (59pts in under 47games) under Keefe and trending downward

15-4-1 his first 20 games

12-11-4 in his last 27 games

I dont think we changed our sports science people during the offseason but that only makes the differences more drastic.

Somehow we managed to go from one of the healthiest teams in the league to one of the least within 2 years.

Are you saying that it's just bad luck for dubas? It has nothing to do with the players he has targeted? That sounds "mythical" to me. Who is more responsible for the players than the gm?

Do you forget martin? What about polak and komarov?

The amount of liberties I have seen opposing teams take with our star players is atrocious. Why wouldn't other teams when they know we have no one to make them answer?

You have no decent counter points so decide to throw mud. Well done ips!

 

[The Podium]

wait. Bozak and JVR signed for 12. What was lou going to get them for?

Some like to cling to revisionist history, hindsight and coincidence equaling causation

 

[The Podium]

The amount of hate spewed at Babcock from his fan base is embarrassing.

Yeah, things changed quickly when keefe took over. We were hot for 20 games and then fell back to our pace very quickly again. Our last 27 games we were barely over .500. That is not improvement.



I dont think we changed our sports science people during the offseason but that only makes the differences more drastic.

Somehow we managed to go from one of the healthiest teams in the league to one of the least within 2 years.

Are you saying that it's just bad luck for dubas? It has nothing to do with the players he has targeted? That sounds "mythical" to me. Who is more responsible for the players than the gm?

Do you forget martin? What about polak and komarov?

The amount of liberties I have seen opposing teams take with our star players is atrocious. Why wouldn't other teams when they know we have no one to make them answer?

You have no decent counter points so decide to throw mud. Well done ips!

Clifford is tougher than Martin, Muzzin isn’t far off Polak, and Komarov wasn’t tough he was a pest that is a regular healthy scratch at this point.

The Leafs under Lou were among the healthiest teams ever, it was a coincidence and one of the major criticisms of the team by opposing fans that a lot of us, including myself, chose to ignore.

 

[IPS]

The amount of hate spewed at Babcock from his fan base is embarrassing.

Yeah, things changed quickly when keefe took over. We were hot for 20 games and then fell back to our pace very quickly again. Our last 27 games we were barely over .500. That is not improvement.



I dont think we changed our sports science people during the offseason but that only makes the differences more drastic.

Somehow we managed to go from one of the healthiest teams in the league to one of the least within 2 years.

Are you saying that it's just bad luck for dubas? It has nothing to do with the players he has targeted? That sounds "mythical" to me. Who is more responsible for the players than the gm?

Do you forget martin? What about polak and komarov?

The amount of liberties I have seen opposing teams take with our star players is atrocious. Why wouldn't other teams when they know we have no one to make them answer?

You have no decent counter points so decide to throw mud. Well done ips!

Holy f*** you're all over the place.

Where were our injury issues in 18/19? Dubas ran the team then too, no? I thought you said injuries are suddenly a problem under Dubas?

And regarding Babcock - where are your counter points? Are you denying that we didn't drastically improve our point pace under Keefe? How come you accused me of cherry-picking earlier and but now you're demanding we don't count Keefe's first 20 games and how we "reverted back to previous pace? Did injuries not play any factor in the point pace falling off?

 

[Garthinater]

Did you really just argue that the Leafs are more injured and Andersen was worse because Dubas is the GM... I dont even....

Go back and look at Lous roster, where was the D? Where was the muscle? Some of you have this fallacy that this team was the Broad Street Bullies with the 90's NJ D before Dubas took over, when in fact they were softer and had a worse D.

Fact 1. We are less healthy now with dubas in charge than when lou was in charge.

Fact 2. Our goaltending was better with lou than it is with dubas.

The gm is in charge of who is on the team.

With dubas we are getting hurt more often and our goaltending isnt playing as well.

If a gm trades for smaller, weaker players they are going to get hurt more.

If a gm trades for players who are not proficient at defense, our goalies will let more goals in.

It's very simple stuff.

Now, if you want to bury your head in the sand and believe that nothing is dubas' fault, go ahead.

Polak. Martin. Komarov. Theres 3 players right there who would hit and fight for their team mates. Did you forget about them?

It's funny how the dubas defenders will go on and on about how much better our players are and yet somehow they managed to be out done by that pesky duo of babcock and lou with their poor players.

 

[hotpaws]

What's also funny is noone brings up the fact that Rielly missed half the games we played under Keefe.
We arent exactly loaded on D and quite the opposite, so losing arguably your best D is a massive loss.
Then you have people saying "Man Holl sucked since he signed his contract". Maybe it had something to do with our D having significant injuries and him having to play more minutes than he should have?

Losing a player like Rielly or even Muzzin isnt just about you removing a good player from your lineup. It also forces lesser players into minutes that they shouldnt be playing and its only a matter of time before they get exposed.

I still have my reservations if this team can go all the way with how its constructed but I'm going to wait a full season, under the coach he wanted all along before I make any concrete judgements on Dubas's ability to put together a good team or not.

you know what's funny ?

what's funny is how people ignore that JT and Marner were injured while Babs was coach and also ignore that the b/u goalie provided him by the GM couldn't win a game and also ignore our record under Babs with Andy starting

it looked like Babs lost the room so he had to go but the way this board has turned on him to defend the Dube's incompetence is hilarious

 

[The Podium]

Fact 1. We are less healthy now with dubas in charge than when lou was in charge.

Fact 2. Our goaltending was better with lou than it is with dubas.

The gm is in charge of who is on the team.

With dubas we are getting hurt more often and our goaltending isnt playing as well.

If a gm trades for smaller, weaker players they are going to get hurt more.

If a gm trades for players who are not proficient at defense, our goalies will let more goals in.

Now, if you want to bury your head in the sand and believe that nothing is dubas' fault, go ahead.

Polak. Martin. Komarov. Theres 3 players right there who would hit and fight for their team mates. Did you forget about them?

It's funny how the dubas defenders will go on and on about how much better our players are and yet somehow they managed to be out done by that pesky duo of babcock and lou with their poor players.

How is Martin, Komarov and Polak different than Clifford, Mikheyev and Muzzin? How is Muzzin not the best DFD we had in decades?

Again coincidence doesn’t always equal causation. This team wasn’t full of defensive stalwarts and muscle before Dubas.

 

[The Podium]

you know what's funny ?

what's funny is how people ignore that JT and Marner were injured while Babs was coach and also ignore that the b/u goalie provided him by the GM couldn't win a game and also ignore our record under Babs with Andy starting

it looked like Babs lost the room so he had to go but the way this board has turned on him to defend the Dube's incompetence is hilarious

I don’t think anyone is saying that. People are acknowledging that injuries were an issue all season.

People will also acknowledge that the backup situation was a mess, but Dubas did deal with it.

We aren’t blind Dubas supporters

 

[hotpaws]

I don’t think anyone is saying that. People are acknowledging that injuries were an issue all season.

People will also acknowledge that the backup situation was a mess, but Dubas did deal with it.

We aren’t blind Dubas supporters

the Dubas supporters are only acknowledging injuries during Keefe's tenure and completely ignoring Babs record without Hutch who is totally on Dubas

it took Dubas over a season and a half to "deal" with his mishandling of the b/u position and he wasted assets to accomplish that when it could have been easily dealt with in the offseason at zero asset expense if he hadn't totally mismanaged the cap

and people are "blindly" supporting him just like an even larger and more rabid following "blindly" supported Burke

 

[Garthinater]

Holy f*** you're all over the place.

Where were our injury issues in 18/19? Dubas ran the team then too, no? I thought you said injuries are suddenly a problem under Dubas?

And regarding Babcock - where are your counter points? Are you denying that we didn't drastically improve our point pace under Keefe? How come you accused me of cherry-picking earlier and but now you're demanding we don't count Keefe's first 20 games and how we "reverted back to previous pace? Did injuries not play any factor in the point pace falling off?

How exactly am I "all over the place"? Please explain.

Do you think we were healthy the 18-19 season? Lol only 12 players played 70 games or more. What was your point?

Where did I "demand" that we ignore the first 20 games?

Teams tend to get hot after a coaching change, it's not new. We managed to play for 20 games at a higher level before falling back to our old ways for the last 27. That's not what I'd call improving

So in conclusion, you think our injury woes, goaltending troubles and slide in the standings are all based on luck? None of it is the fault of the guy responsible for the team?

 

[Garthinater]

you know what's funny ?

what's funny is how people ignore that JT and Marner were injured while Babs was coach and also ignore that the b/u goalie provided him by the GM couldn't win a game and also ignore our record under Babs with Andy starting

it looked like Babs lost the room so he had to go but the way this board has turned on him to defend the Dube's incompetence is hilarious

Good post.

Babcock and lou are literally the boogie men for some of these posters.

 

[kb]

I don’t think anyone is saying that. People are acknowledging that injuries were an issue all season.

People will also acknowledge that the backup situation was a mess, but Dubas did deal with it.

We aren’t blind Dubas supporters

Agenda driven people out themselves so easily with this type of comment.

Dubas is far from perfect, but IMO he's done more good than bad- so far.

 

[Garthinater]

Our players are getting hurt more now but it's not dubas' fault. Probably lou's

Our goaltending hasn't been performing but that's definitely not on dubas. Let's blame it on Babcock.

Our team with dubas and keefe is so much better than it was under lou and babs despite finishing roughly 10 points behind.

Why cheer for the maple leafs when you can adore and praise our young and inexperienced gm?

Boy I felt silly typing that. The fact that so many of you live by this code is scary.