Speculation: Who is a good General Manager? Perhaps it's the luckiest one?

[hotpaws]

Good post.

Babcock and lou are literally the boogie men for some of these posters.

can you imagine the praise Dubas/Keefe would be getting from the LL/Babs hate club if they were the one's who took this team from a scorched earth rebuild and 30th place to a team record in points in just 3 years ?

 

[Garthinater]

can you imagine the praise Dubas/Keefe would be getting from the LL/Babs hate club if they were the one's who took this team from a scorched earth rebuild and 30th place to a team record in points in just 3 years ?

There would be statues made all over toronto to honor them.

And yet, the two who rebuilt this team are torn apart at every chance while dubas gets praised as some sort of wonder kid for literally doing worse at the same job.

It's honestly weird.

 

[IPS]

How exactly am I "all over the place"? Please explain.

Do you think we were healthy the 18-19 season? Lol only 12 players played 70 games or more. What was your point?

One of the healthiest teams in the league my friend.

Where did I "demand" that we ignore the first 20 games?

"We were hot for 20 games and then fell back to our pace very quickly again. Our last 27 games we were barely over .500. That is not improvement."

Looks like a demand to me. You're demanding we only look at the specific sample where Keefe's record was closer to Babcock's (still better) while wanting to completely ignore the 20 games where he blew it out of the water.

Teams tend to get hot after a coaching change, it's not new. We managed to play for 20 games at a hugher level before falling back to our old ways for the last 27. That's not what I'd call improving

I tend to take the more logical stance of losing half of our already thin D to injuries for the falloff. Btw you got any evidence of teams getting hot after a coaching change? Pittsburgh actually struggled a fair bit when they fired Johnston and hired Sullivan, they then proceeded to win the cup.

So in conclusion, you think our injury woes, goaltending troubles and slide in the standings are all based on luck? None of it is the fault of the guy responsible for the team?

Injury troubles - yes, complete luck. Those are things that vary drastically from year to year. One other thing I was going to ask you, which injuries this year were from "opponents taking liberties at our star players" that you claimed earlier? Sounds like more nonsense to me.

Goaltending troubles - Dubas' fault. He failed very badly acquiring a backup and waited way too long to do so. Thankfully Freddy's play started to stabilize when the D started getting healthy again.

Slide in the standings - What slide in the standings? We finished 7th in league. , 3rd in Atlantic in 17/18, lost to Bruins in 7 games. In 18/19, we finished 7th in the league, 3rd in Atlantic, lost to Bruins in 7 games. Precisely identical. As far as this year goes, Dubas/Shanahan made the stupid mistake of bringing back a coach that the team clearly tuned out. Said coach got fired and the team proceeded to get back on track, even keeping themselves in the picture with half of the D being injured. It's like I've said all along - there's been no clear decline from Lou to Dubas, just moving laterally.

 

[DatSnipeMatthews]

Dubas was the luckiest GM to inherent what he did. And he's been nothing short of a dumpster fire since he took over. The way he handled the contracts to the Kadri trade. Absolutely terrible. He has made some nice selections in the draft though.

He is the perfect politically correct face though. We live in a weird world where being nice and friendly is more important than results.

 

[hotpaws]

There would be statues made all over toronto to honor them.

And yet, the two who rebuilt this team are torn apart at every chance while dubas gets praised as some sort of wonder kid for literally doing worse at the same job.

It's honestly weird.

yup it is weird but if you were around here during Burke's reign of terror to witness his huge following praise him endlessly while never getting out of the bottom 10 it wouldn't be a surprise

too bad years of threads were deleted , they would have given me hrs of entertainment while i'm stuck at home , lol

 

[ACC1224]

Yup, I'd say im indifferent on Dubas, dont love every move and dont want him fired ASAP. I'd be willing to give him another season or 2. What irks me though are the ones who cant see the good at all and try to tear him down without considering context.

Sounds like we are of the same opinion.
IMO, the ones who find zero fault with anything are just as bad. Two sides of the same coin.

Curious, when hired was Dubas your #1 choice for the job?
He wasn't for me which probably leads to some of my skepticism, if I'm being honest.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Technically our backup is Campbell now, Sparks over McBackup ill defend. You dont lose your AHL goalie of the year and Calder cup winner/MVP for a 35+ year old journey man coming off a career year, again it unfortunately didnt work out, but lets not pretend you wouldnt have made the same move.

Actually, Jonsson was the Calder Cup MVP.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Sounds like we are of the same opinion.
IMO, the ones who find zero fault with anything are just as bad. Two sides of the same coin.

Curious, when hired was Dubas your #1 choice for the job?
He wasn't for me which probably leads to some of my skepticism, if I'm being honest.

Dubas' mistakes wer/are: Not addressing the backup situation, not addressing the defense, not adding
enough toughness.
We found out now that the backup goaltending and toughness, took time. Might be the same with the D.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

There would be statues made all over toronto to honor them.

And yet, the two who rebuilt this team are torn apart at every chance while dubas gets praised as some sort of wonder kid for literally doing worse at the same job.

It's honestly weird.

Dubas fans have acknowledged his shortcomings and failures. What is weird is that his haters will toot Lou's horn and won't acknowledge that he has similar failures when it comes to contracts and trades. Lou has been doing a terrible job on the Isles.

 

[DatSnipeMatthews]

Dubas fans have acknowledged his shortcomings and failures. What is weird is that his haters will toot Lou's horn and won't acknowledge that he has similar failures when it comes to contracts and trades. Lou has been doing a terrible job on the Isles.

Lou made some mistakes forsure. That contract to Marleau was idiotic.

But Dubas’ mistakes are far, far worse.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Lou made some mistakes forsure. That contract to Marleau was idiotic.

But Dubas’ mistakes are far, far worse.

Which ones?

For example a Dubas Hater would be calling for his head for overpaying Marner but would not be calling for Lou's head for paying a 38 yr old Marleau 6M and giving him 3 years. That doesn't exactly sound like objective thinking and having a clear agenda.

I've defended Dubas on certain arguments and am a fan of his drafting and some of the trades he's made. I have also criticized some of his bad moves but am not an alarmist and call for the guy's dismissal on every mistake. Same goes for Lou. I've praised him for some of his trades, the Kadri and Rielly signings and tearing things down for the rebuild. I've also been critical of his mistakes but didn't call for his dismissal. More people need to be objective.

 

[hotpaws]

Dubas fans have acknowledged his shortcomings and failures. What is weird is that his haters will toot Lou's horn and won't acknowledge that he has similar failures when it comes to contracts and trades. Lou has been doing a terrible job on the Isles.

how's Lou's doing a terrible job on the Island considering the teams improved since he joined them and has also out performed the team he left which is regressing under Dubas ?

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

how's Lou's doing a terrible job on the Island considering the teams improved since he joined them and has also out performed the team he left which is regressing under Dubas ?

He has over paid a bunch of grinders.
Anders Lee is making 7M and has 6 yrs remaining and and only 43 pts this year by the stoppage.

Brock Nelson is making 6M and has 5yrs remaining and had 54 pts.

Eberle is making 5.5 M and has 4 more yrs and had 40 pts.

Bailey is making 5M and has 4 yrs remaining and had 43 pts this yr.

Pageau is making 5M and is signed for 6 more yrs and had 42 pts.

Komorov is making 3M and is signed for 2 more years and had 14 pts this year.

Those are a bunch of examples of big contracts he's given out to some middling players that aren't producing but Dubas gets criticized for contracts he's given out. Kapanen is producing at close to a similar rate as a lot of those guys and only makes 3.2M. Their 4th line gets paid close to a combined 9M while ours is getting around a combined 3M.

The Isles have 3M in cap space and have to sign their only superstar player in Barzal and Pulock. This is a team that will not win a cup and is not setup to win a cup anytime soon as their only star player is Barzal and their farm system is pretty weak. That is a lot of contracts that will be pretty hard to move as most of these guys are pushing 30. He also gave up a 1st and 2nd round pick for Pageau , who is a good player but he is a 3rd liner now making 5M. That's a lot to give up for that type of player. I would say that's a pretty bad job and many Islanders fans on their board are of the same opinion.

 

[hotpaws]

He has over paid a bunch of grinders.
Anders Lee is making 7M and has 6 yrs remaining and and only 43 pts this year by the stoppage.

Brock Nelson is making 6M and has 5yrs remaining and had 54 pts.

Eberle is making 5.5 M and has 4 more yrs and had 40 pts.

Bailey is making 5M and has 4 yrs remaining and had 43 pts this yr.

Pageau is making 5M and is signed for 6 more yrs and had 42 pts.

Komorov is making 3M and is signed for 2 more years and had 14 pts this year.

Those are a bunch of examples of big contracts he's given out to some middling players that aren't producing but Dubas gets criticized for contracts he's given out. Kapanen is producing at close to a similar rate as a lot of those guys and only makes 3.2M. Their 4th line gets paid close to a combined 9M while ours is getting around a combined 3M.

The Isles have 3M in cap space and have to sign their only superstar player in Barzal and Pulock. This is a team that will not win a cup and is not setup to win a cup anytime soon as their only star player is Barzal and their farm system is pretty weak. That is a lot of contracts that will be pretty hard to move as most of these guys are pushing 30. He also gave up a 1st and 2nd round pick for Pageau , who is a good player but he is a 3rd liner now making 5M. That's a lot to give up for that type of player. I would say that's a pretty bad job and many Islanders fans on their board are of the same opinion.

all these bad moves by LL and yet his team has still outperformed the one led by that legendary GM Dubas , lol

funny thing is Lou didn't inherit young elite talent like the the greatest GM in the history of pro sports Kyle Dubas did yet somehow even though he has destroyed the team like you believe they are still performing better than the one he left behind which has regressed under Kyle "the legend" Dubas even though he didn't invent the mentor trip like the great Dube did . lol

edit- the islanders have 12.5 m to spend this off season if the cap remains flat not 3m like you posted

 

[Menzinger]

all these bad moves by LL and yet his team has still outperformed the one led by that legendary GM Dubas , lol

funny thing is Lou didn't inherit young elite talent like the the greatest GM in the history of pro sports Kyle Dubas did yet somehow even though he has destroyed the team like you believe they are still performing better than the one he left behind which has regressed under Kyle "the legend" Dubas even though he didn't invent the mentor trip like the great Dube did . lol

edit- the islanders have 12.5 m to spend this off season if the cap remains flat not 3m like you posted

They won 1 more playoff game than the Leafs....

And were on a 7 game losing streak before the season was postponed

 

[hotpaws]

They won 1 more playoff game than the Leafs....

And were on a 7 game losing streak before the season was postponed

your much better than to keep repeating idiotic crap like saying they only won 1 more game than us , they advanced to the second rd and we got knocked out

yup teams go through slumps and we were about .500 the last 27 games but somehow that always gets ignored somehow by the GM fan club

 

[Menzinger]

The amount of hate spewed at Babcock from his fan base is embarrassing.

Yeah, things changed quickly when keefe took over. We were hot for 20 games and then fell back to our pace very quickly again. Our last 27 games we were barely over .500. That is not improvement.



I dont think we changed our sports science people during the offseason but that only makes the differences more drastic.

Somehow we managed to go from one of the healthiest teams in the league to one of the least within 2 years.

Are you saying that it's just bad luck for dubas? It has nothing to do with the players he has targeted? That sounds "mythical" to me. Who is more responsible for the players than the gm?

Do you forget martin? What about polak and komarov?

The amount of liberties I have seen opposing teams take with our star players is atrocious. Why wouldn't other teams when they know we have no one to make them answer?

You have no decent counter points so decide to throw mud. Well done ips!

Martin was a healthy scratch and banished tonthe press box by Babcock, while Lou was th GM.

Islanders fans talk about Komarov like hes going to be bought out too....

 

[Menzinger]

/

your much better than to keep repeating idiotic crap like saying they only won 1 more game than us , they advanced to the second rd and we got knocked out

yup teams go through slumps and we were about .500 the last 27 games but somehow that always gets ignored somehow by the GM fan club

Youve repeated a couple times in this thread how the Isles have surpassed the Leafs, which is a pretty questionable claim.....

The Isles 2018-2019 season was driven by red hot goaltending, which (predictably) didnt last.

Between them and the Leafs its a pretty easy decision who id pick as the better team moving ahead.

Lou has been doing what he did here - spending an awful lot of money on veteran 2nd tier guys. And im not at all convinced thats a formula for success

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

all these bad moves by LL and yet his team has still outperformed the one led by that legendary GM Dubas , lol

funny thing is Lou didn't inherit young elite talent like the the greatest GM in the history of pro sports Kyle Dubas did yet somehow even though he has destroyed the team like you believe they are still performing better than the one he left behind which has regressed under Kyle "the legend" Dubas even though he didn't invent the mentor trip like the great Dube did . lol

edit- the islanders have 12.5 m to spend this off season if the cap remains flat not 3m like you posted

Who around here is touting Dubas as a legend? I've posted both praise and criticisms of both GMs.

The Isles were on a 7 game losing streak before the stoppage. They have a roster that consists of many overpaid grinders and power forwards that are aging and are at their prime or past it. They don't score a lot of goals beacuse they lack star players. That roster is not going to outscore the likes of Boston, Tampa, Washington in the east, let alone make it to the final. They are not setup in the future to make it either. A core of Barzal, Lee, Nelson , Pulock, Leddy and Varlamov is pretty weak. They are an overachieving team.

You are correct on the cap space. I was looking at their current space and didn't factor in their UFAs for this offseason. All my other points still stand.

 

[Dekes For Days]

They won 1 more playoff game than the Leafs....

It was against a worse team too, and then they got embarrassed by an even worse team.

And were on a 7 game losing streak before the season was postponed

It goes even further; they are 19-20-9 since their winning streak at the beginning of the season, 23rd in the league during that time-frame which represents over 70% of the season. Also, even when counting the whole season, they dropped from 5th in the league to 11th, which is the same magnitude of drop as the Leafs, and they didn't have the massive injuries to deal with. How odd that that's not considered "regression"...

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

It was against a worse team too, and then they got embarrassed by an even worse team.

It goes even further; they are 19-20-9 since their winning streak at the beginning of the season, 23rd in the league during that time-frame which represents over 70% of the season. Also, even when counting the whole season, they dropped from 5th in the league to 11th, which is the same magnitude of drop as the Leafs, and they didn't have the massive injuries to deal with. How odd that that's not considered "regression"...

Great post!

 

[hotpaws]

/


Youve repeated a couple times in this thread how the Isles have surpassed the Leafs, which is a pretty questionable claim.....

The Isles 2018-2019 season was driven by red hot goaltending, which (predictably) didnt last.

Between them and the Leafs its a pretty easy decision who id pick as the better team moving ahead.

Lou has been doing what he did here - spending an awful lot of money on veteran 2nd tier guys. And im not at all convinced thats a formula for success

it's a fact that the Islanders outperformed the Leafs last season and had a better ppg % this year not a questionable claim

and as i've said , LL didn't inherit elite young talent like Dubas did and i'm sure he would have liked to walk into a situation like that but unfortunately very few do

 

[hotpaws]

Who around here is touting Dubas as a legend? I've posted both praise and criticisms of both GMs.

The Isles were on a 7 game losing streak before the stoppage. They have a roster that consists of many overpaid grinders and power forwards that are aging and are at their prime or past it. They don't score a lot of goals beacuse they lack star players. That roster is not going to outscore the likes of Boston, Tampa, Washington in the east, let alone make it to the final. They are not setup in the future to make it either. A core of Barzal, Lee, Nelson , Pulock, Leddy and Varlamov is pretty weak. They are an overachieving team.

You are correct on the cap space. I was looking at their current space and didn't factor in their UFAs for this offseason. All my other points still stand.

yes the islanders were on a 7gm loses streak but many of those loses were in o/t-s/o so they still picking up points and every team goes through slumps so i have no idea why you keep bringing this up

and we were on a 27 game stretch where we were playing roughly .500 but somehow this seems to get overlooked by you , also outside of our hot 20 game streak we're among the bottom feeders of the NHL

also our young core wasn't built by Dubas so why are you giving him credit for it ? he did however add 2 high priced vets who's contracts are going to look brutal 2-3 yrs from now

 

[rent free]

all these bad moves by LL and yet his team has still outperformed the one led by that legendary GM Dubas , lol

funny thing is Lou didn't inherit young elite talent like the the greatest GM in the history of pro sports Kyle Dubas did yet somehow even though he has destroyed the team like you believe they are still performing better than the one he left behind which has regressed under Kyle "the legend" Dubas even though he didn't invent the mentor trip like the great Dube did . lol

edit- the islanders have 12.5 m to spend this off season if the cap remains flat not 3m like you posted

it's 10.1 if it remains flat

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

yes the islanders were on a 7gm loses streak but many of those loses were in o/t-s/o so they still picking up points and every team goes through slumps so i have no idea why you keep bringing this up

and we were on a 27 game stretch where we were playing roughly .500 but somehow this seems to get overlooked by you , also outside of our hot 20 game streak we're among the bottom feeders of the NHL

also our young core wasn't built by Dubas so why are you giving him credit for it ? he did however add 2 high priced vets who's contracts are going to look brutal 2-3 yrs from now

I haven't overlooked anything with the Leafs record.

Dekes for days added a good point that that the Isles were subpar in their last 38 games adter starting the season on a hot streak and didn't have the significant injuries we did. I've posted several times in these threads that we lost 3 of our best D men for a large amount of games, 2 of our top 6 forwards for a large amount of games and our best winger missed a good amount of games due to injury/ contract dispute. Our starting goalie also played poorly for about 2 months. Context matters when it comes to our poor play. You said every team goes through slumps. So if the isles have a slump its " well every team has em" but if the Leafs have a slump it's a regression by Dubas".

I haven't given Dubas credit for our core? This whole conversation started because you asked me why I thought Lou was doing a bad job for the Isles. I said exactly why with all the bad contracts he's given out there and a weak farm system which you haven't acknowledged yet. I then said he has set that team up to fail as that team is overachieving and is not setup for long term success. I've pointed out that Dubas haters will RIP on him for contacts but won't acknowledge that Lou has made these same mistakes, both for the Leafs and the Isles. This whole thing is about their track record since taking over their respective teams not the roster they inherited. I've said both GM's have made mistakes but I take Dubas' over payments over Lou's in the last 2 years as we are setup for future as our team will be more manageable.