Speculation: Who is a good General Manager? Perhaps it's the luckiest one?

[The Podium]

Sounds like we are of the same opinion.
IMO, the ones who find zero fault with anything are just as bad. Two sides of the same coin.

Curious, when hired was Dubas your #1 choice for the job?
He wasn't for me which probably leads to some of my skepticism, if I'm being honest.

Ya Dubas was my #1 choice. I may be more lenient because of that.

 

[hotpaws]

I haven't overlooked anything with the Leafs record.

Dekes for days added a good point that that the Isles were subpar in their last 38 games adter starting the season on a hot streak and didn't have the significant injuries we did. I've posted several times in these threads that we lost 3 of our best D men for a large amount of games, 2 of our top 6 forwards for a large amount of games and our best winger missed a good amount of games due to injury/ contract dispute. Our starting goalie also played poorly for about 2 months. Context matters when it comes to our poor play. You said every team goes through slumps. So if the isles have a slump its " well every team has em" but if the Leafs have a slump it's a regression by Dubas".

I haven't given Dubas credit for our core? This whole conversation started because you asked me why I thought Lou was doing a bad job for the Isles. I said exactly why with all the bad contracts he's given out there and a weak farm system which you haven't acknowledged yet. I then said he has set that team up to fail as that team is overachieving and is not setup for long term success. I've pointed out that Dubas haters will RIP on him for contacts but won't acknowledge that Lou has made these same mistakes, both for the Leafs and the Isles. This whole thing is about their track record since taking over their respective teams not the roster they inherited. I've said both GM's have made mistakes but I take Dubas' over payments over Lou's in the last 2 years as we are setup for future as our team will be more manageable.

yes it's always context when discussing why the team has regressed under Dubas but zero context when discussing other teams , even when they have performed better than expectations and better than the Leafs , lol

and just because you keep repeating every player on the Islander has a bad deal doesn't make it true and as i have said 2-3 years from now JT/Muzzin deals will be among the worst cap anchors in the league

also i don't need to add "context" when another teams GM makes a poor move like some people seem to do with every bad move Dubas makes

Marleau - it was - easy peasy to dump his final year for cheap after we pay his signing bonus , then Dubas got bent over giving up a 1st, it's OMG LL f***ed us and lucky Dubas only had to give up a 1st and no one else could do better

Kadri for Kerfoot/Barrie , OMG it wasn't a brutal trade , it;s Babs ruined Barrie and Kerfoot only looks bad but when we stat mine we can find a couple that show he isn't useless

overpaying the JT/AM/MM/WN , lol it's not an overpayment if you only look at a certain way and ignore everything else and all the comparable's

i could go on and on but it's a f***ing waste of time having a discussion with people who believe they need to defend or lets say add "context" to every poor move Dubas makes

 

[Dekes For Days]

yes it's always context when discussing why the team has regressed under Dubas but zero context when discussing other teams

No context is being ignored for other teams. You're just ignoring context when it provides any explanation for anything you deem negative about the Leafs.

and just because you keep repeating every player on the Islander has a bad deal doesn't make it true and as i have said 2-3 years from now JT/Muzzin deals will be among the worst cap anchors in the league

Except the Islanders do factually have a ton of bad deals, while the Leafs have literally none. Again, you are doing exactly what you're accusing others of. You're dismissing all of the bad deals on the Islanders, and then somehow coming to the conclusion that a franchise center and our best defensive D (who is signed to a pretty good deal for short term) are somehow "the worst cap anchors in the league".

Marleau - it was - easy peasy to dump his final year for cheap after we pay his signing bonus, then Dubas got bent over giving up a 1st

Uhh.. no. It would have been much easier for Dubas to dump Marleau, but then Marleau suddenly decided that he would only go to San Jose (impossible) or somewhere that could buy him out so that he could go to San Jose, which had to be done before the buyout period (and his signing bonus). Not "easy peasy".

Kadri for Kerfoot/Barrie , OMG it wasn't a brutal trade

This was overwhelmingly seen as a massive win for the Leafs when it happened, by pretty much everyone in the league, on a site that is allergic to giving the Leafs credit. In reality, it still was a good trade.

overpaying the JT/AM/MM/WN , lol it's not an overpayment if you only look at a certain way and ignore everything else and all the comparable's

When we look at comparables, in the most accurate way, we see that they are not overpayments at all.

and we were on a 27 game stretch where we were playing roughly .500 but somehow this seems to get overlooked by you , also outside of our hot 20 game streak we're among the bottom feeders of the NHL

The Islanders were on a 48 game stretch below 0.500, among the bottom feeders of the NHL, and it's being overlooked by you. And beyond that, you're again doing exactly what you accuse others of right above that statement; providing so-called "context" and making excuses for their losing streak:

yes the islanders were on a 7gm loses streak but many of those loses were in o/t-s/o so they still picking up points and every team goes through slumps so i have no idea why you keep bringing this up

 

[ACC1224]

Never understood why the shortcomings of LL in NY are used to validate the job Dubas is doing here.

 

[ManwithNoIdentity]

GMs are the easy target to place blame on. It’s all a game of but what have you done for me lately?

 

[hfman]

if the current GM doesn't win in so much time, fire him, and bring in the next one.

If the next one doesn't win in so much time, fire him, and bring in the next one.

If the next one doesn't win in so much time, fire him, and bring in the next one.

not too complicated actually

 

[Dekes For Days]

Never understood why the shortcomings of LL in NY are used to validate the job Dubas is doing here.

Because some people view him as the alternative. In their minds, if it wasn't Dubas, it would still be Lou. And since some people irrationally hate Dubas, they try to pump up Lou, even though he did worse here, he is doing worse in NY, and Dubas is, in reality, doing a great job.

To some extent, it's also about understanding and accepting the overall realities of the GM position, by looking at others. Some people hate Dubas because they have wildly unrealistic expectations of any GM.

 

[The Podium]

Marleau - it was - easy peasy to dump his final year for cheap after we pay his signing bonus , then Dubas got bent over giving up a 1st, it's OMG LL f***ed us and lucky Dubas only had to give up a 1st and no one else could do better

Im not going to touch your post because you have a clear agenda. Just this part. Marleau had a NMC and only wanted to be moved if he was to be bought out to become a UFA to go to SJS. If his bonus was paid here, yes dumping him would’ve been cheap, but the buyout window would’ve closed and Marleau wouldn’t have agreed to a deal so he’d be stuck here... but you know

LoL DuMbASs tHiS sHoUlD hAvE bEeN eAsY pEaSy LeMon SqUeEzY

 

[cannucky]

Because some people view him as the alternative. In their minds, if it wasn't Dubas, it would still be Lou. And since some people irrationally hate Dubas, they try to pump up Lou, even though he did worse here, he is doing worse in NY, and Dubas is, in reality, doing a great job.

To some extent, it's also about understanding and accepting the overall realities of the GM position, by looking at others. Some people hate Dubas because they have wildly unrealistic expectations of any GM.

And some people will spin spin spin to justify their own failure to understand and accept the reality of the situation . LL was brought in to clear the decks of bad deals and open up cap space and roster spots so we could rebuild , a job he did when nobody thought it was possible . If you want to talk context , did it not occur to you that the real rason he left was because he didn't want to work with Dubas ? Saying we didn't overpay those 4 is just plain wrong , we never should have signed JT at all , we didn't need him and our results have gone backwards since we got him , great player ? heck yes , 11 million for an aging center ? heck no . LL woud have done the right thing with Nylander as well , he would have looked him in the eye and said "sign for 5 over 5 or go play in Europe for 100k until your 27 " and he would have meant it , that gets us Nylander for 5 , MM and AM in the 7-8 range and saves us 11 million of JT , saving us 20 million in cap and we still have a team that finished higher than it has since we got JT . Instead we are almost 20 million over this years cap and will be at or above next years cap with only 16 players .

 

[cannucky]

PS I'm not saying LL is the best GM right now he's just better than the Aclown we have , The best is probably Sakic , look at his talent and payroll and compare it to ours , no 11 million dollar men over there and they are probably the best team in the league in spite of playing half the season with a third of their stars injured on any given night .

 

[Dekes For Days]

LL was brought in to clear the decks of bad deals and open up cap space and roster spots so we could rebuild , a job he did when nobody thought it was possible

...Who thought it wasn't possible? What exactly did Lou do that was that hard? Trading away mediocre players for inflated returns at the trade deadline isn't hard. He barely had any expectations or difficult decisions. He didn't even convince the board to do a rebuild; that was Shanahan.

did it not occur to you that the real rason he left was because he didn't want to work with Dubas ?

Uhh.. what? He worked with Dubas for years... Lou just wanted to still be in control.

Saying we didn't overpay those 4 is just plain wrong

Except it's not wrong. They are well within the comparables. Some have a weird perception that inexplicably wants to punish players for their team not getting PP TOI.

we never should have signed JT at all , we didn't need him and our results have gone backwards since we got him

Tavares was a hugely beneficial get for us. Leafs were weak at center, and it was a franchise center for no expended assets, at a decent cost relative to his market value. You do that every time. We have not gone backwards since we got him; we have improved in everything that he impacts.

LL woud have done the right thing with Nylander as well , he would have looked him in the eye and said "sign for 5 over 5 or go play in Europe for 100k until your 27 " and he would have meant it

LMAO. No, he wouldn't. There is literally no evidence that this would happen at all. Lou is actually historically a pretty horrible negotiator, and he exasperated the Nylander situation by doing nothing for a year.

that gets us Nylander for 5 , MM and AM in the 7-8 range

You're dreaming if you think you can get Nylander for 5 and MM and AM for 7-8.

You have absolutely zero basis to make these claims.

Instead we are almost 20 million over this years cap and will be at or above next years cap with only 16 players .

We are not 20 million over the cap, and we are not over the cap next year.

The best is probably Sakic , look at his talent and payroll and compare it to ours no 11 million dollar men over there

Because they only have 1 player worthy of a contract like that, and he signed when he still sucked.

and they are probably the best team in the league

Lol, what? In what way is Colorado the best team in the league?

 

[ACC1224]

At what point will Dubas’ effort stand on its own and not need propping up by Lou Lams failings?

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

yes it's always context when discussing why the team has regressed under Dubas but zero context when discussing other teams , even when they have performed better than expectations and better than the Leafs , lol

and just because you keep repeating every player on the Islander has a bad deal doesn't make it true and as i have said 2-3 years from now JT/Muzzin deals will be among the worst cap anchors in the league

also i don't need to add "context" when another teams GM makes a poor move like some people seem to do with every bad move Dubas makes

Marleau - it was - easy peasy to dump his final year for cheap after we pay his signing bonus , then Dubas got bent over giving up a 1st, it's OMG LL f***ed us and lucky Dubas only had to give up a 1st and no one else could do better

Kadri for Kerfoot/Barrie , OMG it wasn't a brutal trade , it;s Babs ruined Barrie and Kerfoot only looks bad but when we stat mine we can find a couple that show he isn't useless

overpaying the JT/AM/MM/WN , lol it's not an overpayment if you only look at a certain way and ignore everything else and all the comparable's

i could go on and on but it's a f***ing waste of time having a discussion with people who believe they need to defend or lets say add "context" to every poor move Dubas makes

I have been making the point that People who rag on Dubas for his mistakes won't acknowledge Lou's similar or worse mistakes on the isles and you keep proving my point. I've given you comparisons between the contracts given out by both Gms, like their 4th lines . If you want another example , Dubas gave a 24 year old Nylander 6.9M and and was on pace for 71 pts and and a 29 yr old Lee was given a 7M contract by Lou and was on pace for 51 pts. Which contract looks worse?

Yes, the many examples of the contracts I've given you on the isles ARE bad because the CONTEXT shows that there is a whole lot of mediocre production by a bunch of guys that are signed to long term deals at high dollars at around the age of 30. Isles fans also agree. Context matters in an argument or else you are just making an empty claim. I have backed up my points on both sides and you keep refusing to acknowledge them.

Also Tavares is one of the best centers in the league and even if his production does slow down in the next few years he still provide more production than any of the guys I've mentioned on the Isles. As it stands right now he is a ppg player

 

[The Podium]

At what point will Dubas’ effort stand on its own and not need propping up by Lou Lams failings?

Im going to assume it’ll be when the anti-Dubas fans stop pushing their fallacy that he would’ve been a lot better

 

[Dekes For Days]

At what point will Dubas’ effort stand on its own and not need propping up by Lou Lams failings?

Dubas does not need propping up; he's already clearly a great GM, and his moves speak for themselves. Doesn't mean false claims about Dubas and Lou should be ignored.

 

[ACC1224]

Im going to assume it’ll be when the anti-Dubas fans stop pushing their fallacy that he would’ve been a lot better

To a neutral observer it seems like two sides of the same dumb coin.

 

[Dekes For Days]

To a neutral observer

You spent pages earlier in this thread complaining about not getting a king's ransom for the likes of Leivo and Zaitsev (despite you admitting he had little to no value), expected Dubas to just cheaply and magically find a way out of the Marleau situation he didn't create, expected Dubas to sign the RFAs to contracts that weren't an option, and suggested a trade involving Marleau that likely wasn't possible, and would have been horrible without the benefit of hindsight. You also admitted you didn't want him for the job, and you are skeptical and not optimistic. Not sure how that's "neutral".

 

[rent free]

Dubas does not need propping up; he's already clearly a great GM, and his moves speak for themselves. Doesn't mean false claims about Dubas and Lou should be ignored.

Dubas is not clearly a great gm. He's ignored many flaws of this team

 

[hotpaws]

Im not going to touch your post because you have a clear agenda. Just this part. Marleau had a NMC and only wanted to be moved if he was to be bought out to become a UFA to go to SJS. If his bonus was paid here, yes dumping him would’ve been cheap, but the buyout window would’ve closed and Marleau wouldn’t have agreed to a deal so he’d be stuck here... but you know

LoL DuMbASs tHiS sHoUlD hAvE bEeN eAsY pEaSy LeMon SqUeEzY

LL isn't perfect by i highly doubt he would have allowed Marleau to dictate terms his departure to him like that weak bitch Dubas did . He would have sat Marleau down and told him how he the situation was going to be resolved .

now you'll never admit this because of your agenda but that's your problem

 

[Dekes For Days]

He's ignored many flaws of this team

Like what? Offense has gotten better. Defense has gotten better. He kept the same starter that had done well up until this year, as anyone would, and we currently have a good backup. He's brought in multiple tough players, with leadership and experience. He's improved the prospect pool. He brought in a new coach that we look much better under, and is utilizing our strengths. All in a relatively short amount of time.

This isn't NHL 20 where you just go out and easily fix every major and minor flaw in one off-season. What Dubas has done is very impressive.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

And some people will spin spin spin to justify their own failure to understand and accept the reality of the situation . LL was brought in to clear the decks of bad deals and open up cap space and roster spots so we could rebuild , a job he did when nobody thought it was possible . If you want to talk context , did it not occur to you that the real rason he left was because he didn't want to work with Dubas ? Saying we didn't overpay those 4 is just plain wrong , we never should have signed JT at all , we didn't need him and our results have gone backwards since we got him , great player ? heck yes , 11 million for an aging center ? heck no . LL woud have done the right thing with Nylander as well , he would have looked him in the eye and said "sign for 5 over 5 or go play in Europe for 100k until your 27 " and he would have meant it , that gets us Nylander for 5 , MM and AM in the 7-8 range and saves us 11 million of JT , saving us 20 million in cap and we still have a team that finished higher than it has since we got JT . Instead we are almost 20 million over this years cap and will be at or above next years cap with only 16 players .

Based on the contracts by Lou I've listed in my previous posts, there is nothing to suggest he would've been better on the Nylander negotiations. He gave Lee 7M and had only had one 60 pt season by the age of 28. Brock Nelson was given a 6M contract and only had one 50 pt season by the age of 27. Josh Bailey signed for 5M and only had one 60 pt season by the age of 28. Nylander had already had two 60 pts seasons in his first 2 yrs in the league at the age of 23. What here suggests he would've given Nylander 5M?

Sakic has been doing a great job lately but he was also regarded as arguably the worst GM when he first started. Maybe we should take a wait and see approach with what Dubas does in the future. His drafting has been fantastic, his trades for the most part have been pretty good and he has done a good job at recruiting players and replacing depth. He has made mistakes and admitted to it but he has also shown some growth.

 

[Dekes For Days]

LL isn't perfect by i highly doubt he would have allowed Marleau to dictate terms his departure to him like that weak bitch Dubas did . He would have sat Marleau down and told him how he the situation was going to be resolved.

So your whole argument is based around the wildly unsubstantiated and false claim that Marleau would have randomly changed his mind about wanting to be in San Jose for no reason other than Lou wanted it, while Marleau held all of the leverage and power because Lou freely handed over that control when he signed him?

 

[The Podium]

LL isn't perfect by i highly doubt he would have allowed Marleau to dictate terms his departure to him like that weak bitch Dubas did . He would have sat Marleau down and told him how he the situation was going to be resolved .

now you'll never admit this because of your agenda but that's your problem

The fact you are calling him a bitch shows you’re the one with the agenda.

Lou caved on Marleau once giving him the third year, but somehow you think he would’ve played hard ball the second time around? Your whole argument is based on an unsubstantiated belief that Marleaus intentions would have changed with a different GM.

 

[hotpaws]

I have been making the point that People who rag on Dubas for his mistakes won't acknowledge Lou's similar or worse mistakes on the isles and you keep proving my point. I've given you comparisons between the contracts given out by both Gms, like their 4th lines . If you want another example , Dubas gave a 24 year old Nylander 6.9M and and was on pace for 71 pts and and a 29 yr old Lee was given a 7M contract by Lou and was on pace for 51 pts. Which contract looks worse?

Yes, the many examples of the contracts I've given you on the isles ARE bad because the CONTEXT shows that there is a whole lot of mediocre production by a bunch of guys that are signed to long term deals at high dollars at around the age of 30. Isles fans also agree. Context matters in an argument or else you are just making an empty claim. I have backed up my points on both sides and you keep refusing to acknowledge them.

Also Tavares is one of the best centers in the league and even if his production does slow down in the next few years he still provide more production than any of the guys I've mentioned on the Isles. As it stands right now he is a ppg player

LL played the cards he was dealt in NY and most of the deals he gave out to ufa's were fine outside of a couple including Komo who wasn't worth the deal he got but i;m happy he got paid ,

LL didn't inherit Mathews/Marner/Nylander but he did inherit Rielly/Kadri/Brown/Hyman and he signed them all to team friendly deals.Dubas on the other hand got bent over by ufa's and rfa's alike ,

JT is already overpaid , no where near one of the top centers in the league and in a couple of years he'll be on one of if not the biggest cap anchor in the league and Muzzin will be right there with him so explain to me why it's okay for Dubas to hand out monster deals to aging vets but you ripping LL for it ?

 

[hotpaws]

The fact you are calling him a bitch shows you’re the one with the agenda.

Lou caved on Marleau once giving him the third year, but somehow you think he would’ve played hard ball the second time around? Your whole argument is based on an unsubstantiated belief that Marleaus intentions would have changed with a different GM.

lol , so Lou who sat Lupes down and explained how his career was over would have have allowed Marleau to make him his bitch like he did to Dubie

your agenda is clearly clouding your judgement , maybe you should take a second to gather your thoughts