Which Trade was Burke's best *** Reset April 28, 2014 ***

Al14

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Jul 13, 2007
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I can't vote on this. None, I repeat, NONE of Burke's trades really got us any closer to competing for a Stanley Cup!

Isn't it high time we put the Burke era to bed. We're only marginally better after his time here! The proof is in the standings this year!
 

Mess

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But he's not wrong, the best teams draft well, and trade well and use free agency well.

It's as simple as it gets. Like 1 2 3.

Yes but drafting is the biggest and highest priority and the other 2 methods far less important and less used options by the majority of successful teams. So granted they're all options but not equal in team building importance\priority.

Nobody believes drafting is the only way and a team is 100% drafted and developed but its the primary one.

Priority 1). Draft picks are free assets because the NHL hands them out to every team every season and then teams use them to acquire the next wave of young talent entering the league. In a cap world its also the most economical because rookie contracts are salary capped at $925k plus bonuses and are your cheapest NHL contracts. They also help offset your star player contracts to help assemble stronger teams.

Key Point: When teams like Anaheim, Detroit, Pitts and Chicago won their Cups players like Perry, Getzalf, Zetterberg, Franson, Malkin, Toews and Kane were all on their entry level capped contracts or 2nd bridge deals for < $2 mil. That was the secret to their Cup success having high impact draft picks on cheap contracts allowing them to spend to the cap and assemble strong teams. These players were among the teams highest scoring in the playoffs and among the Conn Smythe winners.

If your paying your players $8 and $7 mil and elite money already, you only have so much to spend on the rest of the team. The window for Cup success relies heavily on ELC contracts as your best opportunity.

Priority #2) When you make trades you have assets out and assets in and the benefit to your team is only the difference not the full amount of impact. Kessel came at the expense of Seguin, Hamilton and 2nd. Leafs traded 3 assets for 1 and Seguin at only 22 has already surpassed Kessel best career totals already.

Priority #3) UFA spending is the worst option because although the player comes free of asset loss or exchange other then money, everyone knows these contracts are inflationary due to supply and demand and thus your highest contracts in a Cap World and often your most regrettable ones. Komisarek, Connolly, Armstrong, Clarkson are not smart moves to go UFA shopping for NHL talent and the main reason teams use it is to fill holes your own drafting and developing can't provide or try and put your team over the top with that last piece of the puzzle. (the exception the few elite players that hit the market (ie Suter and Parise) but still come at a very steep price.
 

Faltorvo

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Feb 18, 2008
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Yes but drafting is the biggest and highest priority and the other 2 methods far less important and less used options by the majority of successful teams. So granted they're all options but not equal in team building importance\priority.

Nobody believes drafting is the only way and a team is 100% drafted and developed but its the primary one.

Priority 1). Draft picks are free assets because the NHL hands them out to every team every season and then teams use them to acquire the next wave of young talent entering the league. In a cap world its also the most economical because rookie contracts are salary capped at $925k plus bonuses and are your cheapest NHL contracts. They also help offset your star player contracts to help assemble stronger teams.

Key Point: When teams like Anaheim, Detroit, Pitts and Chicago won their Cups players like Perry, Getzalf, Zetterberg, Franson, Malkin, Toews and Kane were all on their entry level capped contracts or 2nd bridge deals for < $2 mil. That was the secret to their Cup success having high impact draft picks on cheap contracts allowing them to spend to the cap and assemble strong teams. These players were among the teams highest scoring in the playoffs and among the Conn Smythe winners.

If your paying your players $8 and $7 mil and elite money already, you only have so much to spend on the rest of the team. The window for Cup success relies heavily on ELC contracts as your best opportunity.

Priority #2) When you make trades you have assets out and assets in and the benefit to your team is only the difference not the full amount of impact. Kessel came at the expense of Seguin, Hamilton and 2nd. Leafs traded 3 assets for 1 and Seguin at only 22 has already surpassed Kessel best career totals already.

Priority #3) UFA spending is the worst option because although the player comes free of asset loss or exchange other then money, everyone knows these contracts are inflationary due to supply and demand and thus your highest contracts in a Cap World and often your most regrettable ones. Komisarek, Connolly, Armstrong, Clarkson are not smart moves to go UFA shopping for NHL talent and the main reason teams use it is to fill holes your own drafting and developing can't provide or try and put your team over the top with that last piece of the puzzle. (the exception the few elite players that hit the market (ie Suter and Parise) but still come at a very steep price.

Well there is also one over looked aspect to those 7 free picks you get every year.

To make this simple to understand lets look at it from a asset value, using 100 as a high water mark.

someone like Crosby and his ilk would hold a 125 out of 100 value, as in over the top and generational. PK Subban being found in the 2nd round is a definite 125/100, when you consider the quality of the player and the draft slot used.

a good solid #1 like Hall, probably worth 100/100

some no account 7th rounder usually turns out to be worth 0/100.

we have as an organisation failed miserably at finding guys outside the high draft slots that get anything near a valued number.

we have just failed at converting those free draft slots into high valued assets.
 

Gallagbi

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Key Point: When teams like Anaheim, Detroit, Pitts and Chicago won their Cups players like Perry, Getzalf, Zetterberg, Franson, Malkin, Toews and Kane were all on their entry level capped contracts or 2nd bridge deals for < $2 mil. That was the secret to their Cup success having high impact draft picks on cheap contracts allowing them to spend to the cap and assemble strong teams. These players were among the teams highest scoring in the playoffs and among the Conn Smythe winners.

If your paying your players $8 and $7 mil and elite money already, you only have so much to spend on the rest of the team. The window for Cup success relies heavily on ELC contracts as your best opportunity.
Kane, Toews, Keith and Seabrook were all making significantly more than $2 mil last year.

Same with Kopitar, Doughty, Richards and Carter when they won the Cup. Quick was really the only low cost deal that I'd consider to be part of their core.

Cheap players are definitely a good thing, but teams are competing well beyond the window of their ELC.

It looks like we'll have another cup winner based around non <$ 2 mil contracts again this year.

The Leafs also have their share of younger ELC and bridge deals with Gardiner, Kadri, Rielly and a top 10 pick this year.
 
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Mess

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Kane, Toews, Keith and Seabrook were all making significantly more than $2 mil last year.

Same with Kopitar, Doughty, Richards and Carter when they won the Cup. Quick was really the only low cost deal that I'd consider to be part of their core.

Cheap players are definitely a good thing, but teams are competing well beyond the window of their ELC.

It looks like we'll have another cup winner based around non <$ 2 mil contracts again this year.

The Leafs also have their share of younger ELC and bridge deals with Gardiner, Kadri, Rielly and a top 10 pick this year.

Where are Leafs cheap ELC contract to help off set the elite contracts of Kessel ($8 mil) and Phaneuf ($7 mil) among the highest in the NHL by position.

The best way to get ELC players that have a high team impact is through the draft.

A lot don't think drafting matters in importance of successful team building and trades and UFA signings just as viable ways of team building also.

Leafs have the least drafted and developed players in the NHL on their team presently and a 29th ranked prospect system by the Hockey News (NHL scouts compiled).
 

ACC1224

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Aug 19, 2002
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Where are Leafs cheap ELC contract to help off set the elite contracts of Kessel ($8 mil) and Phaneuf ($7 mil) among the highest in the NHL by position.

The best way to get ELC players that have a high team impact is through the draft.

A lot don't think drafting matters in importance of successful team building and trades and UFA signings just as viable ways of team building also.

Leafs have the least drafted and developed players in the NHL on their team presently and a 29th ranked prospect system by the Hockey News (NHL scouts compiled).

Well Fletcher didn't but that was before many here were born, who are the others that make up this 'lot'?
 

Faltorvo

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Feb 18, 2008
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Where are Leafs cheap ELC contract to help off set the elite contracts of Kessel ($8 mil) and Phaneuf ($7 mil) among the highest in the NHL by position.

The best way to get ELC players that have a high team impact is through the draft.

A lot don't think drafting matters in importance of successful team building and trades and UFA signings just as viable ways of team building also.

Leafs have the least drafted and developed players in the NHL on their team presently and a 29th ranked prospect system by the Hockey News (NHL scouts compiled).

common mess, THN opinions only matter and have worth when they have nice things to say about us.

we don't need the draft schmaft, look how our traded/ufa team has done, atleast we are not finishing bottom 3, that's gotta be worth some PR ammo for marketing?
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
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Where are Leafs cheap ELC contract to help off set the elite contracts of Kessel ($8 mil) and Phaneuf ($7 mil) among the highest in the NHL by position.

The best way to get ELC players that have a high team impact is through the draft.

A lot don't think drafting matters in importance of successful team building and trades and UFA signings just as viable ways of team building also.

Leafs have the least drafted and developed players in the NHL on their team presently and a 29th ranked prospect system by the Hockey News (NHL scouts compiled).
Who doesn't think drafting matters? Kadri, Rielly and I expect Gardiner will meet that cheaper young player label. You could throw in Bernier if you want as well. Then the fact the Leafs will be adding a top 10 pick this year and they have a few Marlies like Ashton, D'Amigo, Holland, Granberg, Percy, MacWilliam who will all probably get a look in camp.

Looks like they have options, how Nonis chooses to use them will be interesting.
 

Mess

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Who doesn't think drafting matters? Kadri, Rielly and I expect Gardiner will meet that cheaper young player label. You could throw in Bernier if you want as well. Then the fact the Leafs will be adding a top 10 pick this year and they have a few Marlies like Ashton, D'Amigo, Holland, Granberg, Percy, MacWilliam who will all probably get a look in camp.

Looks like they have options, how Nonis chooses to use them will be interesting.

You seem to holding down both sides of the debate.

Leafs go out and make and bunch of UFA signings and trades as their team building strategy and that is supported as doing things the right way, and which draft rebuild side are opposed to like trading high picks for Kessel.

However those same signings and trades however instead of improving the team as intended cause it to fail instead sending it to the bottom of the standings. Where buyouts and demotions and salary retention is used to clean up the mess of this strategy. However where the NHL rewards failure with draft picks for poor team competitiveness.

Then Leafs as a result of team building failure draft players like Kadri, Rielly and this years #8 overall, which are the exact type of players the draft rebuild crowd want more of to build the core and less UFA signings and trades to build the team upon. Draft rebuilders recognizing the failure of the re-tooling plan.

However the UFA signing and trade crowd rebuild supporters are using those very draft picks in support of their beliefs that this re-tooling strategy is working as planned for the Leafs. So no place to go for the draft rebuild crowd now because the other side has both sides covered.

The UFA signing and trade rebuild crowd get Kessel, Phaneuf and Clarkson etc while the draft rebuild crowd get Kadri, Rielly and #8 overall pick. The draft rebuild believers would also have a lot more picks and prospects if the team didn't keep "Draft Schmaft" trading them away to fuel the trade rebuild plan.
 

Gallagbi

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You seem to holding down both sides of the debate.

Leafs go out and make and bunch of UFA signings and trades as their team building strategy and that is supported as doing things the right way, and which draft rebuild side are opposed to like trading high picks for Kessel.

However those same signings and trades however instead of improving the team as intended cause it to fail instead sending it to the bottom of the standings. Where buyouts and demotions and salary retention is used to clean up the mess of this strategy. However where the NHL rewards failure with draft picks for poor team competitiveness.

Then Leafs as a result of team building failure draft players like Kadri, Rielly and this years #8 overall, which are the exact type of players the draft rebuild crowd want more of to build the core and less UFA signings and trades to build the team upon. Draft rebuilders recognizing the failure of the re-tooling plan.

However the UFA signing and trade crowd rebuild supporters are using those very draft picks in support of their beliefs that this re-tooling strategy is working as planned for the Leafs. So no place to go for the draft rebuild crowd now because the other side has both sides covered.

The UFA signing and trade rebuild crowd get Kessel, Phaneuf and Clarkson etc while the draft rebuild crowd get Kadri, Rielly and #8 overall pick. The draft rebuild believers would also have a lot more picks and prospects if the team didn't keep "Draft Schmaft" trading them away to fuel the trade rebuild plan.
You didn't answer my question and nothing you wrote has anything to do with my post about cheap contracts.

As for holding both sides of the debate, I guess I see the Grey where others get stuck in the black and white. I have a tough time blindly committing to acquisitions or drafting, I opt for asset maximization instead. It's just logical to use all avenues to improve the team.

Who has said this rebuild is exactly as planned and this team is where it needs to be? That sounds like garbage to me.

Where did the post above yours go by the way?
 
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pooleboy

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Dec 23, 2009
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should add the kesse and jvr trades to this poll

tbh, none of these trades lead to long-term success, and really doesn't lead to short-term success either... but lets keep moving the boat forward! we dont want to win just make the playoffs!
 

Rielly4

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Dec 12, 2012
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should add the kesse and jvr trades to this poll

tbh, none of these trades lead to long-term success, and really doesn't lead to short-term success either... but lets keep moving the boat forward! we dont want to win just make the playoffs!

Lupul for Beauchemin is pretty fair alone... Throwing Gardiner in there is crazy.. Gardiner and Rielly are the most talented players on the team.. They are just young and unpolished.
 

LeafalCrusader

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Beauchemin's been pretty damn good on the Ducks. Playing 23-25 minutes a night on their top pairing. They've got back to back Pacific division championships too. I'd say they made out fine on that trade.
 

EdBelfour20

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Jan 19, 2004
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Beauchemin's been pretty damn good on the Ducks. Playing 23-25 minutes a night on their top pairing. They've got back to back Pacific division championships too. I'd say they made out fine on that trade.

What I don't understand is how he didn't work out here.. Were we too hasty in trading him? Hes a great dman.
 

The Winter Soldier

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Apr 4, 2011
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Anyone watching the Marlies playoff games?

If you have been, Percy was the best Defenceman on the ice the first 2 games of the series.

Versteeg never fit into the Leafs plans, and was basically a bust with us.

Right now at this point in time, this is the trade I love the most of the 5. Trading a bust for 2 quality pieces, great deal back in 2011.
 

Mess

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Anyone watching the Marlies playoff games?

If you have been, Percy was the best Defenceman on the ice the first 2 games of the series.

Versteeg never fit into the Leafs plans, and was basically a bust with us.

Right now at this point in time, this is the trade I love the most of the 5. Trading a bust for 2 quality pieces, great deal back in 2011.

You're not alone as trading vets for picks and prospects to help the rebuild is what many Leafs want. Stop trading for vets that don't improve the team, only bring it down, or expensive UFA signings. Versteeg was one of the few trades made where admitting a mistake was made and corrected.

If the Leafs would have sold off vets at the trade deadlines of 2012 and 2014 like Grabovski, MacArthur, Kulemin, Raymond, and other pending UFA's before resigning or letting them walk for nothing we would have even more Stuart Percy level prospects in the system today.

Teams that finish 5th and 8th from the bottom seldom stand pat but are sellers at TD to fuel future improvement.
 

Gallagbi

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He seemed to make a lot of poor decisions. Is he insulated well in Anaheim?

He's a very similar defenseman to what he was with the Leafs. Different expectations and a better team make a big difference for how he is perceived.

He never deserved the amount of criticism he got here, but it's pretty common for Leafs fans to expect too much from their dmen.
 

The Winter Soldier

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Apr 4, 2011
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You're not alone as trading vets for picks and prospects to help the rebuild is what many Leafs want. Stop trading for vets that don't improve the team, only bring it down, or expensive UFA signings. Versteeg was one of the few trades made where admitting a mistake was made and corrected.

If the Leafs would have sold off vets at the trade deadlines of 2012 and 2014 like Grabovski, MacArthur, Kulemin, Raymond, and other pending UFA's before resigning or letting them walk for nothing we would have even more Stuart Percy level prospects in the system today.

Teams that finish 5th and 8th from the bottom seldom stand pat but are sellers at TD to fuel future improvement.

If we could get the 3rd pick from EDM for 2, 24 year old men in Gardiner and Kadri.

I would be all over this. A high quality Prospect > 2 flawed 24 year old players.
 

achtungbaby

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He's a very similar defenseman to what he was with the Leafs. Different expectations and a better team make a big difference for how he is perceived.

He never deserved the amount of criticism he got here, but it's pretty common for Leafs fans to expect too much from their dmen.

Agreed. If we didn't pump their tires so much the second they put on a Leafs jersey maybe the letdown wouldn't be so bad.
 

hotpaws

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Nov 21, 2009
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Agreed. If we didn't pump their tires so much the second they put on a Leafs jersey maybe the letdown wouldn't be so bad.

Burke unfortunately was the lead tire pumper and set the expectations too high . I still remember the press conference when he said this was a historic day for Leaf fans and this date will be written down as the turning point for our franchise when he was discussing the Phaneuf trade .
 

hockeyfanz*

Guest
Who cares? **** Burke.

Burke unfortunately was the lead tire pumper and set the expectations too high . I still remember the press conference when he said this was a historic day for Leaf fans and this date will be written down as the turning point for our franchise when he was discussing the Phaneuf trade .

Hahahaha...awesome. Agree with K19 and Hotpaws. Burke was a failure on so many levels. I can't believe how many in Leafs Nation think the bum did a good job and Nonis has destroyed his work. What a lark. On the contrary, the only trade that was worth anything, that actually will help the franchise going forward, was a Nonis deal that brought Toronto a number one goalie for the first time since Eddie B wore the Blue and White.
 

The Magic Man

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I was going to choose the Gardiner deal, but when you factor in the value for both sides, it has to be the Phaneuf deal. Beauchemin has returned to his old self while playing with ANA. The flames got nowhere near the return of play from the players they got for DP. While Dion has been our captain most valuable D since the trade.
 

ULF_55

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He's a very similar defenseman to what he was with the Leafs. Different expectations and a better team make a big difference for how he is perceived.

He never deserved the amount of criticism he got here, but it's pretty common for Leafs fans to expect too much from their dmen.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/10/leaf-experience-paralyzed-beauchemin

When his former defenceman reappeared on the West coast, Carlyle had to put him back together.

“When we got him back, it seemed to take about three weeks for him to get his confidence back,†Carlyle said. “When he first got there, he was just slapping the puck around and running all over the place. I was saying to him, ‘Why did this happen?’ He said he didn’t know.

“He didn’t skate, didn’t move the puck, he was kind of paralyzed. In some situations, some things with this group have happened at the same level.â€
 

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