Which five player core would you build around?

[Spilot23]

Can you find another player to hate on? Your Rantanen shtick is getting old.

Btw, this was how the Avs did with Rantanen and without him in the lineup this season, since you seem so persistent on downgrading him as a player.


Avs with Rantanen:

(26-11-5)

Goals per game: 3.6


Avs without Rantanen:

(16-9-3)

Goals per game: 2.9

Funny the hate Rants get are from guys that bow down to advanced stats I wouldn’t be surprised if he was another one picking Kase over Rantanen

 

[Syckle78]

Rantanen is definitely not better than Reinhart at 5-on-5. Reinhart scores 5-on-5 primary points at an 8% higher rate than Rantanen over the past two seasons and that's before taking into consideration how their respective situations (teammates, usage, etc.) influence their scoring rates, and before taking into consideration that Reinhart is the considerably better defensive player and play driver.

And here's where simple common sense needs to be added to your spreadsheet. Colorado is a good team and Buffalo sucks balls. Good teams go to the power play more and score more power play goals. Teams that suck balls are going to get more garbage team even strength goals while teams sit back. There's a reason why the majority of all time great players have a really high percentage of their points on the power play.

 

[Syckle78]

Funny the hate Rants get are from guys that bow down to advanced stats I wouldn’t be surprised if he was another one picking Kase over Rantanen

They just can't accept it doesn't work in hockey. The problem with stat heads is everything is simple numbers in columns and they don't think creatively to understand simple concepts of why it doesn't add up. They can't see passed their blinders.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I'm sorry I don't get the advanced stats as some here do but the eye test I'm taking Rantanen. I'm pretty sure no GM is giving Reinhart what Rantanen got per as well. I may be wrong as well anything possible but for myself, Rantanen is a cut above Reinhart. Also, quick question if Reinhart isn't used on the PP as much who is getting those minutes?

Primary scoring rates isn’t an advanced stat. It is literally goals plus primary assists divided by ice time.

Can you find another player to hate on? Your Rantanen shtick is getting old.

Btw, this was how the Avs did with Rantanen and without him in the lineup this season, since you seem so persistent on downgrading him as a player.


Avs with Rantanen:

(26-11-5)

Goals per game: 3.6


Avs without Rantanen:

(16-9-3)

Goals per game: 2.9

I’ve already told you before, I don’t have anything against Rantanen, he is just one of the players whose stock drops the lowest once you look beyond the raw point totals. It doesn’t seem like you really have any interest in actually reading or addressing the comments and arguments that other people make.

Comparing team records with and without a player in the lineup is a terrible way to evaluate a player. Check Sidney Crosby’s splits over his entire career.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

And here's where simple common sense needs to be added to your spreadsheet. Colorado is a good team and Buffalo sucks balls. Good teams go to the power play more and score more power play goals. Teams that suck balls are going to get more garbage team even strength goals while teams sit back. There's a reason why the majority of all time great players have a really high percentage of their points on the power play.

So, you are saying that it is easier to score 5-on-5 goals on a garbage team like Buffalo (ranked 24th in 5-on-5 GF/60 over the sample that I used) than it is to score 5-on-5 goals on a good team like Colorado (ranked 7th in 5-on-5 GF/60 over the sample that I used).

And you think that it is me who needs to add simple common sense?

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Primary scoring rates isn’t an advanced stat. It is literally goals plus primary assists divided by ice time.



I’ve already told you before, I don’t have anything against Rantanen, he is just one of the players whose stock drops the lowest once you look beyond the raw point totals. It doesn’t seem like you really have any interest in actually reading or addressing the comments and arguments that other people make.

Comparing team records with and without a player in the lineup is a terrible way to evaluate a player. Check Sidney Crosby’s splits over his entire career.

I’m perfectly fine having a discussion, but some of your takes are pretty wild mate.

First it was Cole being better than Girard, then Meier better than Rantanen, now Reinhart better than Rantanen.

What more do I need to add to the argument besides the fact that Rantanen is just a better player?

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I’m perfectly fine having a discussion, but some of your takes are pretty wild mate.

First it was Cole being better than Girard, then Meier better than Rantanen, now Reinhart better than Rantanen.

What more do I need to add to the argument besides the fact that Rantanen is just a better player?

Well, two of those aren't arguments that I actually made. The actual arguments were:

1. Cole had better results this season, and was better this season.
2. Meier is better than Rantanen.
3. Reinhart is better than Rantanen at 5-on-5.

You can try to make an actual valid, credible argument that Rantanen is better than Reinhart at 5-on-5, since that is the argument that is actually relevant to this thread.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Well, two of those aren't arguments that I actually made. The actual arguments were:

1. Cole had better results this season, and was better this season.
2. Meier is better than Rantanen.
3. Reinhart is better than Rantanen at 5-on-5.

You can try to make an actual valid, credible argument that Rantanen is better than Reinhart at 5-on-5, since that is the argument that is actually relevant to this thread.

You’re just overthinking it. Rantanen was well over a PPG last season and was at a PPG pace this season. Reinhart’s never been close to that in his career.

I think where we fundamentally disagree is on circumstances/opportunities driving player success. While it’s a contributing factor, I don’t think it’s as large a factor in point production as you do. If Rantanen played for the Sabres he’d still be putting up big numbers.

 

[Aladyyn]

I'm sorry I don't get the advanced stats as some here do but the eye test I'm taking Rantanen. I'm pretty sure no GM is giving Reinhart what Rantanen got per as well. I may be wrong as well anything possible but for myself, Rantanen is a cut above Reinhart. Also, quick question if Reinhart isn't used on the PP as much who is getting those minutes?

It's not about minutes, it's about role. Reinhart plays netfront while Eichel and Olofsson pass to each other until one of them decides to shoot. He simply doesn't get to play with the puck once he gets to his designated spot. I'm sure you can see how that impacts a player who is primarily a playmaker.

 

[Avsavsavsavsavs]

Can't believe this is so lopsided towards the Avs even with Nuke slotted instead of Landeskog.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

You’re just overthinking it. Rantanen was well over a PPG last season and was at a PPG pace this season. Reinhart’s never been close to that in his career.

I think where we fundamentally disagree is on circumstances/opportunities driving player success. While it’s a contributing factor, I don’t think it’s as large a factor in point production as you do. If Rantanen played for the Sabres he’d still be putting up big numbers.

You're just literally not making the distinction between 5-on-5 and all situations. I am specifically talking about 5-on-5.

Reinhart literally scores 5-on-5 goals and primary assists over the past two seasons at a higher rate (per-60 or per/game; they play almost identical TOI/GP) than Rantanen does and he is also far stronger defensively and much better at driving play. The fact that all of this is true before we account for the differences in the context that influences their scoring makes it pretty clear to me that Reinhart is the better player at 5-on-5.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

I'm sorry I don't get the advanced stats as some here do but the eye test I'm taking Rantanen. I'm pretty sure no GM is giving Reinhart what Rantanen got per as well. I may be wrong as well anything possible but for myself, Rantanen is a cut above Reinhart. Also, quick question if Reinhart isn't used on the PP as much who is getting those minutes?

This year the gameplan was to cycle the puck between Dahlin and Eichel/Olofsson until one of the former sniped it.

Reinhart was man #4, and I guess there was a 5th guy out there, I think.

If you look at our PP totals there is a separation between those three and Reinhart (even with Dahlin and Olofsson missing games), then a small drop to the guys who filled in on the PP for the Swedes (Risto/Mojo), then you're at Skinner with 3 whole PP points.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

You're just literally not making the distinction between 5-on-5 and all situations. I am specifically talking about 5-on-5.

Reinhart literally scores 5-on-5 goals and primary assists over the past two seasons at a higher rate (per-60 or per/game; they play almost identical TOI/GP) than Rantanen does and he is also far stronger defensively and much better at driving play. The fact that all of this is true before we account for the differences in the context that influences their scoring makes it pretty clear to me that Reinhart is the better player at 5-on-5.

I don’t really feel like going down this rabbit hole again, but that doesn’t mean he’s better at even strength.

The last time we had this discussion I outlined a number of inferior players who produced more even strength points than the superior player. Great players score lots on the power play.

At the end of the day, the only thing I care about is which player I believe is better. And I take Rantanen all day everyday over Reinhart.

 

[keglu]

Reinhart is better, actually.

You better hope his agent and Sabres GM do not share your opinion. Otherwise you can end up with 2 of worst contracts in the league very soon.

 

[82Ninety42011]

It's not about minutes, it's about role. Reinhart plays netfront while Eichel and Olofsson pass to each other until one of them decides to shoot. He simply doesn't get to play with the puck once he gets to his designated spot. I'm sure you can see how that impacts a player who is primarily a playmaker.

Yes, I can understand that and thanks for clarifying. I suppose putting a player in a position to succeed would help. However, you can't assume if put in the said position he would be that much better. Unfortunately, until he is better utilised we won't know but in the meantime, Rantanen is succeeding in his role and hard to argue that.

 

[82Ninety42011]

This year the gameplan was to cycle the puck between Dahlin and Eichel/Olofsson until one of the former sniped it.

Reinhart was man #4, and I guess there was a 5th guy out there, I think.

If you look at our PP totals there is a separation between those three and Reinhart (even with Dahlin and Olofsson missing games), then a small drop to the guys who filled in on the PP for the Swedes (Risto/Mojo), then you're at Skinner with 3 whole PP points.

Yes someone else said similar, unfortunately, the coach is not utilising him well. Look one post up for what I replied to another poster.

 

[lauraP]

I do remember after the Sabres drafted Jack Eichel and traded for Ryan O'Reilly, their fans mentioned how their rebuild was far ahead of the Leafs rebuild. Obviously that comment turned out to be wrong.

Eichel ROR > Tavares and Matthews change my mind

 

[Holymakinaw]

Eichel ROR > Tavares and Matthews change my mind

LOL. Just look at the numbers the last 4 years.

There.

Any normal person's mind is changed.

 

[lauraP]

LOL. Just look at the numbers the last 4 years.

There.

Any normal person's mind is changed.

just look at the selke, stanley cup and con symthe. lmfao next time watch hockey instead of stat watching.

 

[Holymakinaw]

just look at the selke, stanley cup and con symthe. lmfao next time watch hockey instead of stat watching.

LMAO. In ANY hockey analyst's lists......Matthews and Tavares come in ahead of Eichel and ROR. It's not even that close.

 

[TS Quint]

This year the gameplan was to cycle the puck between Dahlin and Eichel/Olofsson until one of the former sniped it.

Reinhart was man #4, and I guess there was a 5th guy out there, I think.

If you look at our PP totals there is a separation between those three and Reinhart (even with Dahlin and Olofsson missing games), then a small drop to the guys who filled in on the PP for the Swedes (Risto/Mojo), then you're at Skinner with 3 whole PP points.

Are you saying Reinhardt doesn't produce on the PP because of his PP role or because he's not good at his role.

 

[Mitch nylander]

I like Mackinnon the best out of all #1s, I like Marner the best for the 2nd, Nylander/Teravainen are a wash for 3, I choose Dahlin at 4, lastly Girard at 5.

This leaves the top 2 clear, Toronto or Colorado.

I prefer Toronto's forwards, but colorado's defenders. I chose Colorado, but toronto is the clear 2. Carolina is three. Rangers are last imo.

 

[TS Quint]

They just can't accept it doesn't work in hockey. The problem with stat heads is everything is simple numbers in columns and they don't think creatively to understand simple concepts of why it doesn't add up. They can't see passed their blinders.

I agree. Some people get so wrapped up in the advanced stats that they can't see the forest from the trees. At the end of the day the RESULT IS EVERYTHING. That's what you are trying to predict with the advanced stats. On average advanced stats probably give you a good guess. In some cases it can show you what has happened. You can say a player had a lucky/unlucky season but after that if the results keep defying the equation there is probably something wrong with your method of evaluating the player.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I like Mackinnon the best out of all #1s, I like Marner the best for the 2nd, Nylander/Teravainen are a wash for 3, I choose Dahlin at 4, lastly Girard at 5.

This leaves the top 2 clear, Toronto or Colorado.

I prefer Toronto's forwards, but colorado's defenders. I chose Colorado, but toronto is the clear 2. Carolina is three. Rangers are last imo.

You’d rather have Nylander/Teravainen as a building block over Dahlin?

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I agree. Some people get so wrapped up in the advanced stats that they can't see the forest from the trees. At the end of the day the RESULT IS EVERYTHING. That's what you are trying to predict with the advanced stats. On average advanced stats probably give you a good guess. In some cases it can show you what has happened. You can say a player had a lucky/unlucky season but after that if the results keep defying the equation there is probably something wrong with your method of evaluating the player.

There is nothing advanced or predictive about using goals and primary assists that actually happened at 5-on-5 in order to compare which player is better at 5-on-5.

They just can't accept it doesn't work in hockey. The problem with stat heads is everything is simple numbers in columns and they don't think creatively to understand simple concepts of why it doesn't add up. They can't see passed their blinders.

Every argument made in favor of Rantanen being better than Reinhart is based on sorting the “P” column on NHL dot com.

All I am doing, in response to somebody else bringing up 5-on-5 play, is actually making the distinction between scoring at 5-on-5 and scoring at all situations.

I don’t really feel like going down this rabbit hole again, but that doesn’t mean he’s better at even strength.

The last time we had this discussion I outlined a number of inferior players who produced more even strength points than the superior player. Great players score lots on the power play.

At the end of the day, the only thing I care about is which player I believe is better. And I take Rantanen all day everyday over Reinhart.

You literally showed two players that didn’t even out-score the other two players at 5-on-5, and I clearly explained to you why that comparison would have been utterly meaningless even if you were right.

I don’t care what you care about. I am responding to somebody else who said that Rantanen is better than Reinhart at 5-on-5. They specified 5-on-5; not me. I have provided evidence which suggests that their claim is actually not true, and am still waiting for any kind of rebuttal to my argument.