Where does Ichiro rank among all time MLB players?

[MurrayBannerman]

What's the range you're using for those number?

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/explaining-win-values-part-three/

 

[Winger for Hire]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/explaining-win-values-part-three/

OK, so those are defensive values, correct? I'm not seeing what they have to do with this.

I'm not trying to be difficult or obtuse, I'm really not seeing the purpose of this in the context of this argument.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I'm not trying to be difficult or obtuse,

 

[darko]

1 month in solitary for you.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Jokes on you, I spend most of my time in solitary.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

OK, so those are defensive values, correct? I'm not seeing what they have to do with this.

I'm not trying to be difficult or obtuse, I'm really not seeing the purpose of this in the context of this argument.

They're positional adjustments.

 

[Winger for Hire]

They're positional adjustments.

Historical?

Is this adjusted for defensive importance? Because the line above the chart you posted is,

That’s why we prefer a defensive position adjustment. The position adjustment scale we use is as follows:

What I was trying to say was that if you take Cano's batting stats and change his position to 3B or OF or 1B, his stat line isn't tops anymore.

It's not simply enough to say well, Cano is the best 2nd baseman in that time frame and Ichiro is the, say, the 4th best OF in that time frame, therefore Cano has a case as a better player than Ichiro.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

Historical?

Is this adjusted for defensive importance? Because the line above the chart you posted is,

It's a constant based on positions played. Scroll down and you'll see the Utley example.

 

[jason1919spezza]

Why do Japanese players come here late (mid 20s at the earliest)? Unlike Korean and Taiwanese-born players, who are signed by MLB teams as prospects in their reens or early 20s.

Because the NPB made a rule after Nomo that Japanese players who are playing in the NPB has to wait for about 7 years (until the posting system kicks off)...at least it's something like that. NPB does not want Japanese players to leave for the MLB, which is why they are penalizing players who are not willing to go abroad instead of staying in Japan. This is what made Ootani Shouhei and many other prospects stay. Tazawa was not allowed to join the WBC roster because he chose to sign a contract with a MLB club instead of playing in the NPB.

Nomo incident in NPB is pretty much the Lindros fiasco of the NHL. The situation is different but it was a chaos. Both leagues was forced to make changes after that.

 

[jason1919spezza]

Just to be clear I think ichiro is a first ballot hofer. I was merely responding to the original question of where he ranks among active players.

Oh, it's ok. I was just replying to the "slowing down" comment. Nothing more than that.

 

[jason1919spezza]

Positional scarcity.

Cano being the best 2nd baseman of the past decade or so, doesn't mean he's better than 10th best outfielder, 5th best 3rd baseman, etc in the same time frame.

Agree.



I highly doubt Cano is going to get a recognition of being a better player than Ichiro, but this all depends on what's going to happen in the next 5-7 years (sort of like Cabrera). If he can continue to play his top level game, than he has a chance. If he slows down, no chance IMO.

2 gold gloves and 5 silver sluggers without any other significant accomplishments are not good enough (at the moment).

 

[Halladay]

Utley was a better player than Cano.

To answer the original questions, definitely behind ARod and Albert.

 

[Winger for Hire]

It's a constant based on positions played. Scroll down and you'll see the Utley example.

OK. I don't think this is a great way to compare 2 players and their historical slots, but it is a good way to determine a players value to a team in a 162 game season. If you want to base your rankings on this, by all means go ahead.

 

[robert terwilliger]

i guess since ichiro is more likable and could hit more homeruns if he wanted to he'll get in over jim edmonds.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=1101,1153

edmonds got buried and is now off the ballot.

ichiro has a three page thread on how great he is.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I'd gladly go to bat for Edmonds as well

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I'd gladly go to bat for Edmonds as well

Edmonds did more than enough at the plate. He doesn't need anyone to bat for him.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I find Edmonds' career very "meh." Great player who didn't excel in anything. Modest hit, 2B and HR total, modest BA, never led the league in anything, no MVP. He did win his share of Gold Gloves, which is nice, but not enough in totality.

 

[Terry Yake]

He should be, but when I see guys like Bagwell, Hoffman, and Raines struggling to get in, I don't assume.

ichiro is a whole tier above those guys

there's no doubt he's first ballot. with edmonds i kind of feel like his persona had something to do with him being one and done. he was never seen as a popular "clubhouse guy" and if anyone remembers his time in anaheim, he was all but vilified by the time he landed in STL. still total BS he fell off the ballot after one year though

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I find Edmonds' career very "meh." Great player who didn't excel in anything. Modest hit, 2B and HR total, modest BA, never led the league in anything, no MVP. He did win his share of Gold Gloves, which is nice, but not enough in totality.

Dude hit 393 home runs as a CF and his career OBP was .376 with an OPS of. 903 and OPS+ of 132 all to go along with 8 Gold Gloves. Like what in the hell are you even talking about man???

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

ichiro is a whole tier above those guys

there's no doubt he's first ballot. with edmonds i kind of feel like his persona had something to do with him being one and done. he was never seen as a popular "clubhouse guy" and if anyone remembers his time in anaheim, he was all but vilified by the time he landed in STL. still total BS he fell off the ballot after one year though

You are criminally underrating Bagwell. He's one of the best 1B of all-time and has the individual hardware to back it up. He was a monster. Ichiro certainly isn't a tier above him.

 

[jason1919spezza]

You are criminally underrating Bagwell. He's one of the best 1B of all-time and has the individual hardware to back it up. He was a monster. Ichiro certainly isn't a tier above him.

Bagwell's great. Top 10 1B all time, and possibly top 5 (maybe not).

But Ichiro was already rated 5th for all time right fielders by ESPN, behind Ruth, Aaron, Robinson, and Clemente in 2011. One would claim that Ichiro is too high on the list, but he's usually in the top 5-10 tier for all time right fielder as well. And that's not recognizing his career in Japan.

It's hard not to put Ichiro in the "what-if" category, but if he had played extra 5-7 seasons in the MLB (with the mid-late 90's Mariners), he would have definitely been in a tier above Bagwell. Ichiro's resume is not only batting stats as well. He has proven on defense (one of the best defensive outfielders ever) and base running (one of the best base runner of the 2000s) as well, which is probably why some would put Ichiro in a tier above Bagwell (not saying Bagwell can't play defense or steal bases but is nowhere even close to Ichiro's resume in that department).

And the fact that Bagwell "might" have done steroids is definitely going to stick with his reputation. I'm not saying Bagwell is a "bad" baseball player because of that, but one may have done steroids while the other hasn't and started his career at the age of 27.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Dude hit 393 home runs as a CF and his career OBP was .376 with an OPS of. 903 and OPS+ of 132 all to go along with 8 Gold Gloves. Like what in the hell are you even talking about man???

He has a good OPS+ but he has a low plate appearance count. He doesn't have 2000 hits, doesn't have 400 homers, barely any stolen bases, and never felt like he played at a high level for long enough. Perhaps he's in your Hall, but I compare him to a few other contemporary CFs who won't be making the Hall either.

To be honest, aside from Suzuki, Guerrero and maybe Beltran, I am not all that impressed with any of the recently-retired or soon-to-retire outfielders.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Not arguing for or against Edmonds, I just find arbitrary milestones rather pointless.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Ichiro has always been consistently overrated and it started with his farce of an MVP award in 2001.

He really only truly had one "great" season which was 2004, other than that he was generally best described as above average. He was never amazing at getting on base outside of the the 2004 season and when it came to hitting with any sort of power you could forget about it. A large number of his hits were of the infield single variety, which of course is less valuable than a regular single, however it is a testament to his speed.

His defence was of course great, but we are talking a guy with above average to good on base ability who had no power whatsoever in his game and some people talk him up like he's a top 5 player of the last 15 years? Give me a break. As far as I'm concerned Mike Trout has already done enough to pass Ichiro.

These other guys are of course indisputably better too (in no particular order): Bonds, A-Rod, Cabrera, Pujols, Giambi, Votto just off the top of my head. Even guys like Beltre are probably better than Ichiro.

Ichiro is definitely top 5 in something and that is being overrated.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Not arguing for or against Edmonds, I just find arbitrary milestones rather pointless.

That's true, but in this case, 400 homers and especially 2000 hits isn't even all that outstanding. Although I will "reward" a 3000 hit player, I wouldn't hold it against him if he had, say, 2613 hits, if it complemented the rest of his game. But 400 homers (if you are a power hitter) or 2000 hits- these are the types of numbers a typical hall of famer should easily be hitting. Doesn't mean it's a requirement- Ichiro will never come close to 400 homers either. But in looking at the whole package, I can live without Edmonds in the Hall.