Where does Ichiro rank among all time MLB players?

[jason1919spezza]

Umm...it's really weird how people are using WAR to argue against Ichiro.

Ichiro was number 2 in WAR for 2000s in the American League, only behind Rodriguez. So this whole "WAR argument" is invalid. He's defense and speed can cover the disadvantage of not hitting for power, and this has been proven as stats. He's also 2nd in UZR for 2000s.

So calling him "overrated" or "laughable" when talking about one of the greatest right fielders is silly. He may not be top 5 (and I did mention that in my previous post), but should be in the top 10 (or very close) when considering all his assets and resume.


I also don't get why people are implying Ichiro should only be recognized for his MLB stats only. I'm not saying his NPB stats should count in his MLB stats (obviously, because those are two different leagues), but the fact that #1 he was already putting "Ichiro"-like stats very early in his NPB career and #2 He adjusted to MLB very easily, has to get credit.

Some people don't like the "what-ifs" and I'm totally fine with that. But than, Hasek/Lindros/Bure/Kariya/Forsberg/Crosby (soon to be) are all being debated in threads with their "what-ifs" as well. And unlike most of these players (except for Hasek), Ichiro had to come later in his professional career. That's not his fault.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

People are arguing against Ichiro using WAR?

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

If by arguing you mean comparing to other players which is the whole point of this thread...

 

[jason1919spezza]

If by arguing you mean comparing to other players which is the whole point of this thread...

No, I mean disregarding Ichiro's stats by using WAR as a point. WAR is supposed to be one of Ichiro's strong points (2nd in AL for 2000s, as well as UZR).

 

[MurrayBannerman]

It is one of his strong points...

 

[jason1919spezza]

54.6 WAR from age 27-37 isn't a "laughable" stats. If he had started out his career at the age of 18-20 (the time when Ichiro was already showing "MLB Ichiro"-like talents), he's career WAR would have been up there in the 80-100 (and that's excluding the fact that he would be playing in the 90's Mariners where Griffey Jr., Martinez, Rodriguez, Buhner were right behind him in batting order).

I never said he was the greatest right fielder. TOP 5 might be a stretch as well. But TOP 10 all time isn't THAT silly as some would suggest.

 

[darko]

18-20 is extremely optimistic. 23 or thereabouts is probably a better number. Probably missed 3 maybe 4 MLB seasons.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

18-20 is extremely optimistic. 23 or thereabouts is probably a better number. Probably missed 3 maybe 4 MLB seasons.

I think it's fair to say that he would have been a 70 win player, which is a slam dunk HoFer.

 

[jason1919spezza]

18-20 is extremely optimistic. 23 or thereabouts is probably a better number. Probably missed 3 maybe 4 MLB seasons.

18-19, yes. But 20 is the year when he was "literally" posting MLB-like stats in NPB (yes its NPB, but you have to take in the reality that there aren't THAT significant increase in Ichiro's stats from NPB and MLB...the only huge difference was his slugging percentage).

The lead-off hitters for the Mariners from the span of 1992-1998 were...

1992: Valle
1993: Vizquel
1994: Amaral
1995: Bragg
1996: Bragg
1997: Cora
1998: Cora

Valle, Amaral, Bragg were not even considered as a regular MLB players. Cora was an all-star in 1997, and was one of the recognized Mariners of the 90's, but is no where near Ichiro (especially considering it's in the 1997 season, and by than he would have definitely been a MLB regular without a single doubt). I'm sorry but I don't even consider Cora as a "super star".
There is only one player in that list who is even relevant when it comes to star player, and that is Vizquel. However, Vizquel was forced to be a lead-off hitter because the Mariners couldn't find a perfect guy to fill in that role (he was batting 9th prior to 1993). So there is a very high chance that Ichiro gets a call-up from the minors.

The only reason that prevented Ichiro from playing as a 18-19 year old was Doi manager, who didn't like his "batting style", despite posting high batting average as a minors player (he won the title for batting average in his first year in the minors for Japan. And also broke the hitting streak as well).

With the trouble that the Mariners had at the time, Ichiro being called up at an early stage isn't too far-fetched IMO (18-19 is optimistic I guess, but again there have been other MLB players who had played in the MLB below the age of 20). The things that is going against him is #1 doubts pointed toward Asian baseball players, #2 batting style, and #3 body frame.

In any case, he would be able to play in his "prime" (some would say mid 20's a prime) in the MLB, which is going to boost is WAR, stats, resume, and hopefully a world series ring. Even if he had played from 22~24, he would be around 70~80 WAR, which is still great. Starting his career at 20 (because that's when his professional career took off) would have put him in the 80~100+ range, and that is near Pujols/Rodriguez tier (not saying Ichiro's better or equal to them...but his WAR is going to be close...and a LOT more than guys like Cabrera).

 

[MurrayBannerman]

You know how hard it is to play in that range? I can think of a handful of guys who succeeded.

 

[darko]

Breaking into MLB at the age of 20 is incredibly hard and there aren't many that have done it. Trout, Harper and Kershaw are freaks of nature.

 

[darko]

I think it's fair to say that he would have been a 70 win player, which is a slam dunk HoFer.

Agree.

 

[jason1919spezza]

You know how hard it is to play in that range? I can think of a handful of guys who succeeded.

Breaking into MLB at the age of 20 is incredibly hard and there aren't many that have done it. Trout, Harper and Kershaw are freaks of nature.

I'm not arguing with "70 WAR" thing btw. That's realistic "if" he plays from age 23-24. WAR 70-80 range is still great.

And yes, I know it's incredibky difficult to make it to the MLB from the age of 18-20, and I have said that in my previous post as well. That's the same with NPB, and probably any other baseball league out there. BARELY anyone plays at the age range of 18-20.

I'm just saying that given the circumstances in the 90's Mariners, and the fact that he was already posting Ichiro-like numbers from literally year one, I don't think it's THAT insane as some would suggest. He basically has to beat non-regular MLB players for the lead-off spot.

Mid 90's Mariners probably would have been...

RF: Ichiro
3B:Rodriguez
CF:Griffey Jr.
DH: Martinez
LF: Buhner
1B: T. Martinez
2B: Cora
C :Wilson
SS: Vizquel

Something like this, which is crazy (yes, I know. The salary. Don't point out the obvious lol).

 

[Vegeta]

I think it's fair to say that he would have been a 70 win player, which is a slam dunk HoFer.

Unless you played for Detroit in the 1980s.

 

[robert terwilliger]

i like how a-rod has to move to third despite never playing on the same team as vizquel and being the infinitely better player than vizquel.

what you've done is essentially combine every popular player who played for the mariners within the decade of the 1990's onto one team. what the hell is joey cora doing there? buhner played like 15 games in left field in his entire career.

the whole roster you've made is a gigantic "what if". what if the mariners don't **** the bed in 1992 and arod goes to the dodgers? or the angels?

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

i like how a-rod has to move to third despite never playing on the same team as vizquel and being the infinitely better player than vizquel.

what you've done is essentially combine every popular player who played for the mariners within the decade of the 1990's onto one team. what the hell is joey cora doing there? buhner played like 15 games in left field in his entire career.

the whole roster you've made is a gigantic "what if". what if the mariners don't **** the bed in 1992 and arod goes to the dodgers? or the angels?

Who even says that the Mariners would have signed Ichiro back then? The posts just keep getting worse and worse.

 

[EpochLink]

Top 10 of his "era" but overall its tough. He could make the hall of fame. Although I'm not sure if his playing in Japan for a decent time will effect that. He'd be a no brained if he played his whole career here.

Ichiro will the be second Mariner cap to be inducted into the Hall of Fame...unless the voters somehow get Edgar Martinez in before that.

 

[jason1919spezza]

i like how a-rod has to move to third despite never playing on the same team as vizquel and being the infinitely better player than vizquel.

what you've done is essentially combine every popular player who played for the mariners within the decade of the 1990's onto one team. what the hell is joey cora doing there? buhner played like 15 games in left field in his entire career.

the whole roster you've made is a gigantic "what if". what if the mariners don't **** the bed in 1992 and arod goes to the dodgers? or the angels?

Woah, no need to get mad lol.

That's why I said "what if". And Vizquel is better as a "shortstop" than Rodriguez. Not batting wise, but defensively.

Yeah, I could have put Ichiro on the left instead of right (since he has played left/center/and right). Cora was a Mariners from 1995-1998, so it does makes sense putting him in the line-up as a 2B for the mid-late Mariners.

Who even says that the Mariners would have signed Ichiro back then? The posts just keep getting worse and worse.

And about this whole "Ichiro not going to the Mariners"...he would. He has previously stated that he wanted to play for the Mariners in 1995 (there is a japanese video on youtube for it). Mariners finally got him to join the camp, but Aogi (former Orix manager) didn't want him to leave the team, so asked him to stay for couple more years...in which he did. So basically, he could have joined the Mariners in 1998.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

You move Vizquel because he isn't that good. You don't move a young, superstar like A-Rod, who was a very good fielder in his own right, off of short.

 

[robert terwilliger]

but omar vizquel should be in the hall of fame!!! ozzie smith! defense! barehand play!

 

[Sens Rule]

Umm...it's really weird how people are using WAR to argue against Ichiro.

Ichiro was number 2 in WAR for 2000s in the American League, only behind Rodriguez. So this whole "WAR argument" is invalid. He's defense and speed can cover the disadvantage of not hitting for power, and this has been proven as stats. He's also 2nd in UZR for 2000s.

So calling him "overrated" or "laughable" when talking about one of the greatest right fielders is silly. He may not be top 5 (and I did mention that in my previous post), but should be in the top 10 (or very close) when considering all his assets and resume.


I also don't get why people are implying Ichiro should only be recognized for his MLB stats only. I'm not saying his NPB stats should count in his MLB stats (obviously, because those are two different leagues), but the fact that #1 he was already putting "Ichiro"-like stats very early in his NPB career and #2 He adjusted to MLB very easily, has to get credit.

Some people don't like the "what-ifs" and I'm totally fine with that. But than, Hasek/Lindros/Bure/Kariya/Forsberg/Crosby (soon to be) are all being debated in threads with their "what-ifs" as well. And unlike most of these players (except for Hasek), Ichiro had to come later in his professional career. That's not his fault.

Well you could compare him to Ted Williams. Williams missed over 4 seasons of time in the US Army. He wasn't injured. He absolutely would have been in his peak prime production years if he played.

He is right up with Ruth and Bonds as the best hitter of alltime but hos counting stats are far lower then if he didn't miss the time to get those extra 500 RBI 150 HRs.

Ted Williams has only 2654 hits. In a career that started at 20 and ended at 41. Where he really didn't miss much time to injury until he was mid 30's... Even then not that much. It is obvious to anyone that no military service for Williams and he probably owns the RBI and Runs records... Maybe the HR record.

The best hockey example is Peter Statsny. Behind the iron curtain and playing high level hockey there and internationally. Defects at 24 and immediately is a 109 point scorer first season. Amazing 10 year prime. Plays a little longer at a non peak level but ages better then most his peers did really. Savard, Hawerchuk losing peak form after 10 seasons also... But doing so at a younger age.

Statsny obviously produces in the NHL at a high level for 2/3/4 seasons if he wasn't unable to play.

Mark Howe is a another example. Like Ichiro, playing highly successfully in a very high level league for 6 years. It wasn't the NHL and he waited for the HHOF but his WHA play had to be considered for him to get in. We KNOW he would have been highly successful in the NHL for 4 more prime years if he broke in at 20 (the age limit then) instead of 18 in the WHA.