Where does Ichiro rank among all time MLB players?

[Elvis P]

Future HoFer...

He should be, but when I see guys like Bagwell, Hoffman, and Raines struggling to get in, I don't assume.

 

[jason1919spezza]

He should be, but when I see guys like Bagwell, Hoffman, and Raines struggling to get in, I don't assume.

Are they really in the same tier as Ichiro in the first place (same with Edmonds)?

It may be only me, but I've never really seen a comment on any forum (nor an article) that has put Ichiro in the same tier as some of the players that people are mentioning.

He's usually in the Top 5 (top 10 at worst) for players of 2000s. Were they ever considered like that in their playing careers?

BTW, Hoffman will get in sooner or later IMO. Just a matter of time.

 

[Pwnasaurus]

Let's be fair about the "slowing down" thing.

Ichiro came into the league at the age of 27, and was born in 1973 (42 now).

Cabrera was born in 1983, which is 10 years younger and is currently 32.

Ichiro finally showed signs of slowing down when he was 37, which is a damn good longevity. He was still an ok~good baseball player for a couple years after that.

In terms of Peak value, Cabrera is more impressive with his triple crown (although Ichiro's 2001 season and 2004 season are impressive as well), but we don't know about the prime yet. That is going to effect his so-called "career value" as well.

Currently Cabrera has a higher peak WAR (best 7 seasons). That's cool if you want to extrapolate ichiro's value had he come over sooner but if we are talking solely about mlb, miggy has had the better career and peak.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Definitely one of the greats....will pass Rose's hit total this season, hopefully. Few could say they were better hitters, all-time, than Ichiro.

Oh, and I don't think there will be any doubt as to his HOF status. He'll get in, first ballot.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Currently Cabrera has a higher peak WAR (best 7 seasons). That's cool if you want to extrapolate ichiro's value had he come over sooner but if we are talking solely about mlb, miggy has had the better career and peak.

I think the writers will give him near full credit for his seasons in Japan. This isn't the case of someone who went to Japan at age 37 after he couldn't hack it in the MLB anymore. If you have a good reason why you were not playing in the MLB until age 27, but your immediate play in the MLB shows it was probable you would have highly succeeded had you come earlier (and possibly even broken the all-time career hits record), then the writers will see you as a first ballot lock.

That being said, his MLB career alone makes him worthy of induction. He has the all-time single season hits record. 10 straight Gold Gloves and 10 straight all-stars in his first 10 seasons. League hits leader in 7 of those seasons. Will break 3000 hits this season.

 

[jason1919spezza]

Currently Cabrera has a higher peak WAR (best 7 seasons). That's cool if you want to extrapolate ichiro's value had he come over sooner but if we are talking solely about mlb, miggy has had the better career and peak.

I wasn't really extrapolating on the previous post. I just said that it's unfair to compare Ichiro and Cabrera's prime (or career value), and make a claim that Cabrera hasn't "slowed down". Cabrera's career value is definitely going to effect whether he can sustain his level of play for another 5-7 years.

And as the guy above me said, to a certain extent, Ichiro deserves some of the credit from his NPB days. Maybe not one-on-one (as in stats wise), but the fact that he was already "Ichiro" from very early in his career and would have probably translated his play in MLB with little problem.

 

[jason1919spezza]

This is another "what-if", but his resume would have been so much better, playing in those mid-90's Mariners team. Ichiro-Rodriguez-Martinez-Griffey Jr.-Buhner and Johnson pitching as a starter would have done serious damage in the playoffs.

And if they haven't made all those terrible moves...this team would have had a good shot at the World Series.

 

[NyQuil]

I watched Seattle play the Jays a number of years back at Skydome when he was with the Mariners.

I remember him stretching obsessively in front of us in the outfield at all times.

He never stopped for the entire game.

The other fielders would sort of stand there in that typical way, but Ichiro was constantly in movement.

 

[Vamos Rafa]

Why do Japanese players come here late (mid 20s at the earliest)? Unlike Korean and Taiwanese-born players, who are signed by MLB teams as prospects in their reens or early 20s.

 

[Pwnasaurus]

Just to be clear I think ichiro is a first ballot hofer. I was merely responding to the original question of where he ranks among active players.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

If we are just taking MLB time into account is there a case to be made for Robinson Cano ahead of Ichiro?

 

[BayStreetBully]

Why do Japanese players come here late (mid 20s at the earliest)? Unlike Korean and Taiwanese-born players, who are signed by MLB teams as prospects in their reens or early 20s.

Some Koreans come over late too. Jung-Ho Kang was a 5 time all-star in the KBO before going to Pittsburgh as a rookie last year. My guess is they are comfortable playing at home the way Russians like the KHL.

 

[Winger for Hire]

If we are just taking MLB time into account is there a case to be made for Robinson Cano ahead of Ichiro?

There's probably a case, especially if you weigh power heavily.

What puts Ichiro over Cano, by a big amount and my personal feelings, is Ichrio being a contact hitter has 3 Silver Sluggers, in a position where power usually rules to go along with 10 gold gloves, as a corner OF in a time were OF gold gloves didn't have to be LF, RF, CF and 2-3 CF could, and would, win. Not to mention the holy terror Ichiro was on the base paths.

Cano is all, or mostly, bat. Very one dimensional.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

There's probably a case, especially if you weigh power heavily.

What puts Ichiro over Cano, by a big amount and my personal feelings, is Ichrio being a contact hitter has 3 Silver Sluggers, in a position where power usually rules to go along with 10 gold gloves, as a corner OF in a time were OF gold gloves didn't have to be LF, RF, CF and 2-3 CF could, and would, win. Not to mention the holy terror Ichiro was on the base paths.

Cano is all, or mostly, bat. Very one dimensional.

Don't see Cano as one dimensional at all. He has a couple of GGs to his name and was an excellent defender in New York. His OBP is also right on par with Ichiro's MLB numbers. I think you're really underrating Cano. He was the top or. Top 2 2B in the league for a decade.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Being a top 2B isn't very high praise in comparison to being a top OF.

Cano's a he'll of a ball player, don't get me wrong, but he's not the all around player Ichiro was/is.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

Being a top 2B isn't very high praise in comparison to being a top OF.

Cano's a he'll of a ball player, don't get me wrong, but he's not the all around player Ichiro was/is.

What?

 

[darko]

Why do Japanese players come here late (mid 20s at the earliest)? Unlike Korean and Taiwanese-born players, who are signed by MLB teams as prospects in their reens or early 20s.

Because of their free agency. Kinda like how you get a young MLB player for 6 years (3 at minimum and 3 arbitration ).

 

[darko]

I wasn't really extrapolating on the previous post. I just said that it's unfair to compare Ichiro and Cabrera's prime (or career value), and make a claim that Cabrera hasn't "slowed down". Cabrera's career value is definitely going to effect whether he can sustain his level of play for another 5-7 years.

And as the guy above me said, to a certain extent, Ichiro deserves some of the credit from his NPB days. Maybe not one-on-one (as in stats wise), but the fact that he was already "Ichiro" from very early in his career and would have probably translated his play in MLB with little problem.

You can extrapolate because it's baseball Hall of Fame not MLB.

 

[Winger for Hire]

What?

Positional scarcity.

Cano being the best 2nd baseman of the past decade or so, doesn't mean he's better than 10th best outfielder, 5th best 3rd baseman, etc in the same time frame.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

Positional scarcity.

Cano being the best 2nd baseman of the past decade or so, doesn't mean he's better than 10th best outfielder, 5th best 3rd baseman, etc in the same time frame.

You have the concept of positional scarcity completely turned around.

 

[Winger for Hire]

You have the concept of positional scarcity completely turned around.

In terms of value to a team or fantasy value... yes, I certainly do, but comparing players straight up in the context of historical greatness, a weak position like 2nd base, your ranking as best of that position holds little to no weight.

Maybe "positional scarcity" wasn't the correct term, but it's what I could pull off my tongue at the moment.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

In terms of value to a team or fantasy value... yes, I certainly do, but comparing players straight up in the context of historical greatness, a weak position like 2nd base, your ranking as best of that position holds little to no weight.

So the best catcher and shortstop of all time are crap now, too?

Meanwhile, two of the top 11 fWAR players of all time are 2nd basemen. #5 is a shortstop.

 

[Winger for Hire]

So the best catcher and shortstop of all time are crap now, too?

Meanwhile, two of the top 11 fWAR players of all time are 2nd basemen. #5 is a shortstop.

No, not at all. I'm not trying to crap on historical catchers and middle infielders. If you expand this to all-time, then you take some of the positional bias (I think that's a better phrase) out of it. But when saying someone is the best 2nd baseman of the last decade or so, you can't really use "all-time" rankings, players and lists. 2nd base has been pretty weak in the 2000's. Outfield has been generally strong. I mean Dan Uggla has a legit case to be a Top 10 2nd baseman since 2000 or so (or whatever we're using in this Cano discussion). I was responding to GIN ANTONIC's argument/rational/stance that Cano is a Top 2 2b in the past decade or so.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

No, not at all. I'm not trying to crap on historical catchers and middle infielders. If you expand this to all-time, then you take some of the positional bias (I think that's a better phrase) out of it. But when saying someone is the best 2nd baseman of the last decade or so, you can't really use "all-time" rankings, players and lists. 2nd base has been pretty weak in the 2000's. Outfield has been generally strong. I mean Dan Uggla has a legit case to be a Top 10 2nd baseman since 2000 or so (or whatever we're using in this Cano discussion). I was responding to GIN ANTONIC's argument/rational/stance that Cano is a Top 2 2b in the past decade or so.

Positional adjustments
Catcher: +12.5 runs (all are per 162 defensive games)
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So, where's this massive positional bias that favors 2Bs over 3Bs and CFs? Surely you don't think that there should be a massive revaluation of corner OFs.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Positional adjustments
Catcher: +12.5 runs (all are per 162 defensive games)
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So, where's this massive positional bias that favors 2Bs over 3Bs and CFs? Surely you don't think that there should be a massive revaluation of corner OFs.

What's the range you're using for those number? And can you explain what this means to me?