What's it gonna take

[Classicnamesup]

I don't know who wants a goon, I want an intimidating player who can play hockey. Martin, Lucic, half of the Capitals etc. A big guy who can and will throw the body around and isn't a joke on skates. There is a bunch out there, give us one Kenny. Just one

 

[Claypool]

Many people write this off saying, "Well they make millions of dollars" but my primary objection comes from the fact the fighters of the league typically aren't in that financial category and retaining goons and the tradition only serves to create a health liability that I, as a fan, am not comfortable taking on for the brief moments of enjoyment it produces.

In short, the league needs to remove fighting, goons shouldn't protect star players, and the Wings need guys who can push their way through traffic and take players off the puck, not ye old intimidation tactics.

Not to mentioned the fighting isn't sanctioned, is dangerous because it's on ice, and is basically no holds barred.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The issue isn't a singular fight causing a singular injury. It's the issue of sustained brain trauma accumulating over time. Brain damage happens incrementally. Repeated blows, even those with no visible issues, compound to head injury. Fighting introduces exactly this and exposes players to risk for future problems that include behavior changes, mood swings, depression, volatility, etc.

This issue has a spotlight at the moment with the Concussion movie out. It's also why youth soccer has had to reevaluate it's policies of late, despite lack of major, visible blows. We're more proactive with these issues in children than we are professional athletes.

In a high speed sport you can't eliminate all risk, but fighting is a very easy one to remove if you're serious about the long-term health of your athletes. If you're in favor of keeping fights, that's fine, but to do so puts the onus on players, fans, and league being willing to accept you're taking a significant risks with player welfare.

Many people write this off saying, "Well they make millions of dollars" but my primary objection comes from the fact the fighters of the league typically aren't in that financial category and retaining goons and the tradition only serves to create a health liability that I, as a fan, am not comfortable taking on for the brief moments of enjoyment it produces.

In short, the league needs to remove fighting, goons shouldn't protect star players, and the Wings need guys who can push their way through traffic and take players off the puck, not ye old intimidation tactics.

The NHL's only true remaining goon has hit the waiver wire recently in John Scott. I mean there aren't a bunch out there. Should we not be worried about the repeated blows from whiplash or legal body checks where the head is involved or hits the glass?

http://www.slate.com/articles/sport...will_smith_s_concussion_and_bennet_omalu.html

There is a pretty fascinating read in terms of some of the truths around the concussion movie.

I realize it is the buzz right now around concussions, but we have no idea what they do... Why some people are more impacted than others. We do know a heck of a lot more than fighting impacts this and even if that weren't the case the NHLPA is not interested in the least to date in any of this information.

There is substantial evidence that hitting also can impact players lives moving forward. Should they not ban hitting and move towards the women's game rules? Oh that is utterly unappealing correct? Well that is the slippery slope... Fighting as we knew it growing up is massively different, I don't see it as the rampant problem others seem to. I also see that as an issue that once removed will allow for a huge movement towards other things in a violent sport that people will be really annoyed with being targeted.

These guys generate car accident force hits at times, they are skating at 20+ mph and now where protection gear (that actually doubles as weapons if you so choose and understand how to use them) that has made them armored to an absurd degree. We will see what happens, but I think fighting has a place in this game and it isn't going anywhere. By the way even if it meant they were going to get suspended if somebody attacked Larkin on an illegal play I would hope somebody eats that suspension tomorrow and crushes that guy.

Either way I certainly don't want a goon, if Mike McKee cannot play hockey well enough he isn't hitting this level. But I will be excited if he can as he will deliver massive body checks on that fourth line and scare some guys out of gutless slew-foots, spears and crappy high hits.

 

[FireBird71]

I'm not sure if the Wings will even sign McKee..maybe the Griffins will but would be shocked if he gets any significant time in the AHL

 

[Bench]

The NHL's only true remaining goon has hit the waiver wire recently in John Scott. I mean there aren't a bunch out there. Should we not be worried about the repeated blows from whiplash or legal body checks where the head is involved or hits the glass?

http://www.slate.com/articles/sport...will_smith_s_concussion_and_bennet_omalu.html

There is a pretty fascinating read in terms of some of the truths around the concussion movie.

I realize it is the buzz right now around concussions, but we have no idea what they do... Why some people are more impacted than others. We do know a heck of a lot more than fighting impacts this and even if that weren't the case the NHLPA is not interested in the least to date in any of this information.

There is substantial evidence that hitting also can impact players lives moving forward. Should they not ban hitting and move towards the women's game rules? Oh that is utterly unappealing correct? Well that is the slippery slope... Fighting as we knew it growing up is massively different, I don't see it as the rampant problem others seem to. I also see that as an issue that once removed will allow for a huge movement towards other things in a violent sport that people will be really annoyed with being targeted.

These guys generate car accident force hits at times, they are skating at 20+ mph and now where protection gear (that actually doubles as weapons if you so choose and understand how to use them) that has made them armored to an absurd degree. We will see what happens, but I think fighting has a place in this game and it isn't going anywhere. By the way even if it meant they were going to get suspended if somebody attacked Larkin on an illegal play I would hope somebody eats that suspension tomorrow and crushes that guy.

Either way I certainly don't want a goon, if Mike McKee cannot play hockey well enough he isn't hitting this level. But I will be excited if he can as he will deliver massive body checks on that fourth line and scare some guys out of gutless slew-foots, spears and crappy high hits.

First off, my point wasn't to herald the Concussion movie and it's narrative (I haven't even seen it), simply to say it has cast a spotlight on the issue. One which the evidence strongly points to that repeated blows to the head, even small ones, produce detrimental outcomes. Obviously there's more research to be done on this to shore up the exact outcomes and at what rate, but I'm very confident this will come to fruition - even though I'd prefer CTE to be mostly scaremongering, that's not what the literature is suggesting.

Second, there's zero need for a slippery slope argument. I already addressed that removal of all risk is impossible. This isn't about creating a 100% safe game. However, fighting is so auxiliary to the actual game that it is an easy fix. Particularly in the modern NHL where fights happen so rarely, and the rules discourage instigating them, it seems inconsequential to remove all-together.

Eye for and eye philosophy and self-policing is strong in the NHL, part of the tradition of the game and imbued in all our childhoods. I don't expect it to vanish overnight from the game. And as I said, I'd prefer it stayed in the game from an entertainment perspective. It's obviously more fun to see teams to engage in such gladiatorial behavior, calling back to the classic Detroit and Colorado series of old. They remain the most entertaining games, rivalries, and fights we've seen in the modern era.

But ultimately I don't see that as the answer to reducing headhunting for star players. I don't see player policing and intimidation working. And I see it only leading to the continued use of fisticuffs that leads to injuries that we are looking to prevent in the first place.

This might all seem tangential to the discussion about the Wings needing more grit, but it all ties into why I don't think that's the direction the team should take, because ultimately the league should be the one to do the policing for the benefit of the sport long-term. Again, I'm all for the Wings adding more size and physical presence, but not for the sake of protecting Larkin. For the sake of winning puck battles and scoring goals.

Regardless, this is an important discussion to have and will continue to be raised. We all love our physical sport and we all want player safety. How that's achieved will continue to be a substantial issue and influence the product we all love.

 

[Actual Thought*]

No kidding.

There was a time players complained the visors ruined their on-ice vision. And then shortly thereafter every leading scorer was wearing a visor, including Ovechkin and his sweet tints and Datsyuk with the sickest of dangles wearing basically a full visor, so it kind of became clear that wasn't even remotely true.

If you want to reduce high speed headshots, the obvious solution is allowing more clutch and grab hockey. At which point I think Ericsson becomes twice the defender he is now, so maybe we should be on board as Wings fans.

I think they should go back to the old rules though they never will. Putting back the 2 line pass and clutching/grabbing would greatly reduce injury. What is more entertaining? Having skill players skate unobstructed for a few games until they get lambasted and miss the rest of the season or slowing the game a bit and watching them play every game? Yzerman was very entertaining to watch and there was more scoring in the 90s than there is now. Personally I prefer pre lockout hockey over basketball hockey.

 

[Winger98]

I'm not sure if the Wings will even sign McKee..maybe the Griffins will but would be shocked if he gets any significant time in the AHL

I think McKee could have a spot held for him in GR, if they think he can play any sort of regular role down there (~10 minutes of hockey where he's not a blackhole on the ice). Enforcers seem to have more of a role in the AHL, and having a guy like McKee to help look after our guys like Mantha and Svechnikov would probably be worth it to management. And if he develops a bit more into a guy who could play that role for the Wings, even better. It wouldn't surprise me either way if McKee gets a deal or not.

 

[sepster]

This narrative that fighting just doesn't happen in the game anymore, or there's no place for it, is simply not true. Go to hockeyfights.com, every single day there are fights in the NHL. And, all of the top teams in the league have guys who can play tough, play physical and will fight. It's not about punching your into the playoffs, but you have to have tough, physical players on your roster to be successful in the NHL. Not to goon it up, but to push back when teams challenge you. To protect your star players, to tone down the cheapshots and to make the other team back off a bit.

Playoff teams as of now:

Atlantic
Florida - 7 fights
Montreal - 5 fights
Boston - 14 fights
Detroit - 3 fights
Ottawa - 15 fights

Metro
Washington - 10 fights
NYI - 9 fights
NYR - 7 fights

Central
Dallas - 11 fights
STL - 16 fights
Chicago - 8 fights
Minnesota - 7 fights
Nashville - 12 fights

Pacific
LA - 14 fights
Arizona - 8 fights
Vancouver - 16 fights

Then, if you look at the past 7 Cup winners (since Detroit last won), regular season plus playoffs

2015
Chicago - 15 fights
Detroit - 8 fights

2014
LA - 31 fights
Detroit - 7 fights

2013
Chicago - 17 fights
Detroit - 14 fights

2012
LA - 37 fights
Detroit - 16 fights

2011
Boston - 76 fights
Detroit - 14 fights

2010
Chicago - 36 fights
Detroit - 21 fights

2009
Pittsburgh - 46 fights
Detroit - 16 fights

2008
Detroit - 22 fights

And, just for good measure
2002
Detroit - 21 fights

1998
Detroit - 33 fights

1997
Detroit - 62 fights

Again, it's not about being a goon squad. It's about having the type of players that CAN fight and play physical and wear the other team down. The stats above are to illustrate the notion that a team CAN'T "waste" a roster spot on tough guys and that fighting doesn't matter in the league any more IS NOT TRUE.

On this current Wings team, Andersson could EASILY be replaced with a Travis Moen or Antoine Roussel or Steve Ott or Ryan Reaves or Kyle Clifford or Jordan Nolan or Brandon Prust.

It is beyond time that the Wings stop employing grinders that are either midgets (Glendenning, Helm) or soft as a wet rag (Andersson, Miller, Sheahan).

The Wings have the talent to succeed in this league but they will never be true contenders until they get some toughness to protect that talent and create space for it to excel. Go out, get some players with some bite and balls and quit getting pushed around. It's pathetic.

 

[Bench]

I still have no idea how fighting backs off cheap shots and protects star players. Somebody needs to connect the dots for me. I feel like I'm trying to figure out who Pepe Silvia is here.

But sure! Push them back with some intimidation and muscle of your own. Police the game yourself. Give it back. What could possibly go wrong.

Ohhhhhh. Alright, having a bit of hyperbolic fun there, but still, that did happen. And then Weber cheap put Zetterberg's face into the glass while that Bertuzzi dude was waiting to take a crack at him the next game. And he did, with a fight, and nothing happened and the Wings lost the series not with a bang, but with a whimper.

I don't hate physical hockey. I love physical hockey. I hate the garbage that surrounds hockey tradition that people mistake for winning hockey. Guys who can win puck battles, make hits, and win ice space. That's important. And completely unrelated to fighting majors. Chicago is a bad example on that fight list, because they are a notoriously not intimidating team, and their success comes from the foundation of skill from Kane, Toews, and Keith in the same framework that Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Lidstrom had success. And Fedorov, Yzerman, and Lidstrom before that.

 

[sepster]

Of course the base has to built on high-end talent, but you have to surround that talent with physical players. Toews, Kane and Keith have had Carcillo, Bickel, Shaw, Bollig, Mayers, Eager, Fraser and others surrounding them in championship years.

The idea that the Hawks or the Wings have won Cups with strictly finesse teams with no physicality is a myth.

Yzerman, Fedorov and Lidstrom always had McCarty, Lapointe, Shanahan, Kocur, Avery and others on their Cup teams.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg had Downey, Drake and McCarty on the '08 team.

The current team has NO ONE like that on the roster.

Tough, physical players are a necessity to be successful in the playoffs. "Built for the Playoffs" is a legitimate, valid saying in regard to a team's toughness and succeeding in the playoffs.

 

[Bench]

Of course the base has to built on high-end talent, but you have to surround that talent with physical players. Toews, Kane and Keith have had Carcillo, Bickel, Shaw, Bollig, Mayers, Eager, Fraser and others surrounding them in championship years.

The idea that the Hawks or the Wings have won Cups with strictly finesse teams with no physicality is a myth.

I feel like I already responded to this.

I love physical hockey. I hate the garbage that surrounds hockey tradition that people mistake for winning hockey. Guys who can win puck battles, make hits, and win ice space. That's important. And completely unrelated to fighting majors

Yzerman, Fedorov and Lidstrom always had McCarty, Lapointe, Shanahan, Kocur, Avery and others on their Cup teams.

Oh I remember. We all remember.

 

[sepster]

To further illustrate the Wings deficiency in size and toughness:

2008 (Cup Champion)
Det - 22 fights
AVG - 6' 201 lbs
Pitt - 51 fights
AVG 6'1" 205 lbs

2009 (Finals loss to Pitt)
Det - 16 fights
AVG 6' 202 lbs
Pitt - 46 fights
AVG 6'1" 201 lbs

2010 (2nd round loss to SJ)
Det - 21 fights
AVG 6' 203 lbs
SJ - 58 fights
AVG 6'1" 206 lbs


2011 (2nd round loss to SJ)
Det - 14 fights
AVG 6' 200 lbs
SJ -50 fights
AVG 6'1" 205 lbs

2012 (1st round loss to NSH)
Det - 16 fights
AVG 6' 200 lbs
NSH - 21 fights
AVG 6'1" 203 lbs

2013 (2nd round loss to CHI)
Det - 14 fights
AVG 6' 199 lbs
CHI - 17 fights
AVG 6'1" 201 lbs

2014 (1st round loss to BOS)
Det - 7 fights
AVG 6'1" 203 lbs
BOS - 46 fights
AVG 6'1" 202 lbs

2015 (1st round loss to TB)
Det - 8 fights
AVG 6'1" 200 lbs
TB - 24 fights
AVG 6'1" 199 lbs

Since 2008, every team the Wings have lost to has been the tougher and/or bigger team. In a 7-game series, the bigger, tougher team will wear down their opponent more often than not.

Again, I don't want a goon squad. I want players who are tough, physical and WILLING to fight if challenged. I'm using other teams fight totals to illustrate the TYPE of players they have on their roster, not necessarily that fighting wins hockey games. Also, just because you have size, that doesn't make you tough or effective. Brad Marchand, at 5'9" 183 lbs and who hits, fights and creates havoc, is a VASTLY more important playoff type player than, say Sheahan, who at 6'3" 222 lbs plays soft, doesn't hit and doesn't make the game harder for the opposing team.

I am all for the skill in hockey. I loved the Russian 5, and Lidstrom and Pav and Z and Tats an so on, but I also know that you have to surround those guys with size and toughness.

 

[chances14]

nobody is denying you need some tough physical players on your roster. but this myth that having these tough physical players on your team prevents cheapshots on your star players is flat out false

 

[Bench]

I think that's one of those correlation and causation things. You can make all kinds of trend lines fit perfectly to a narrative.

The numbers don't lie.

 

[chances14]

internet explorer? what's that?

 

[sepster]

I feel like I already responded to this.

I love physical hockey. I hate the garbage that surrounds hockey tradition that people mistake for winning hockey. Guys who can win puck battles, make hits, and win ice space. That's important. And completely unrelated to fighting majors

But the Wings don't have anybody on the roster that hit or win ice space very well. Abdelkader tries, but he's not particularly good at being a physical presence. Neither is Quincey. Who else is there? Helm's tiny, Glendenning is too slow, Sheahan, Miller and Andersson are too soft. You think our tiny, skill guys are physically intimidating to opposing teams?

Oh I remember. We all remember.

Nice attempt at humor, but that means nothing.

 

[sepster]

I think that's one of those correlation and causation things. You can make all kinds of trend lines fit perfectly to a narrative.

The numbers don't lie.

Haha, I have just shown the stats that, over the past 7 years (with the exception of Chicago over Boston in 2013), the bigger, tougher team has been the Cup Champion AND the bigger, tougher team has ended the Wings season. When the same scenario happens year after year, there may be something to the stats.

You want to argue or discount the stats? Fine. I'm thinking your going to post some more pictures of nonsense instead.

 

[Bench]

But the Wings don't have anybody on the roster that hit or win ice space very well. Abdelkader tries, but he's not particularly good at being a physical presence. Neither is Quincey. Who else is there? Helm's tiny, Glendenning is too slow, Sheahan, Miller and Andersson are too soft. You think our tiny, skill guys are physically intimidating to opposing teams?

Right. We're in agreement there. I'd love the Wings to add more sandpaper to both the forwards and the defense, but not at the expense of skill. I was a huge advocate for Kesler, for example. Who now people are calling the worst contract in hockey, so ya know, maybe I shouldn't run things.

Where we disagree is that physical dudes who get fighting majors help protect star players and win playoff series. You've asserted both. I don't think that's actually true at all. That's an old timey truism.

Nice attempt at humor, but that means nothing.

It still means something to me. Do you have an autographed Avery jersey in your closet? Hmm? Well I might. I admit nothing.

 

[sepster]

Right. We're in agreement there. I'd love the Wings to add more sandpaper to both the forwards and the defense, but not at the expense of skill.

We do agree. I'm not advocating the Wings go become the biggest, baddest kids in the schoolyard, but they NEED to have guys on the roster who are capable. I'm saying the Wings could swap out 2 of Helm, Andersson, Glendenning or Miller for guys I listed above without ANY drop-off in talent but with a HUGE increase in the things needed for playoff success.

 

[Bench]

Haha, I have just shown the stats that, over the past 7 years (with the exception of Chicago over Boston in 2013), the bigger, tougher team has been the Cup Champion AND the bigger, tougher team has ended the Wings season. When the same scenario happens year after year, there may be something to the stats.

You want to argue or discount the stats? Fine. I'm thinking your going to post some more pictures of nonsense instead.

But that's exactly what the "nonsense" picture was saying. You've made a correlation to causation argument that I don't think tells the whole story. Like, at all. Just because you can line up data points doesn't mean that's the reason.

When the Wings lost to the Sharks those years, it wasn't due to being bullied around. Quite the opposite. They have a skill player like Jumbo Joe who is soft as a *****cat. Joe Pavelski was the Wings killer, standing at under 6 feet. I think Douglas Murray alone was throwing off those averages by a literally wide margin. The narrative of those series was never the big, bad Sharks pushing around the Wings. The Wings didn't get muscled at all in the sieges they lost to Chicago. The Hawks won the Cup with the fewest fighting majors of the entire year. How big and physical was the triplets line that smoked the Wings last year?

You can just as easily argue, with very compelling stats, the Wings didn't win those series because their corsi wasn't good enough. And I'm more compelled to focus on ways to get and keep that puck than worry about size alone and fighting majors. Although, as I've said a few times, size can help you get and keep the puck. The rest of that stuff, ehhh, not buying it.

 

[Winger98]

I'm with Bench in not seeing fighting as a way of curbing cheap shots and keeping the flies off our skill guy's backs. I think it does more to have some size and sandpaper that helps keep the play in the other zone,who bogs things up along the boards, and who occupy the other team. Having guys go in and take the body, and keep the other team back a bit that way is what will more likely buy our guy's space and keep the other team too occupied to constantly head hunt Larkin, et al.

 

[sepster]

I think it does more to have some size and sandpaper that helps keep the play in the other zone,who bogs things up along the boards, and who occupy the other team. Having guys go in and take the body, and keep the other team back a bit that way is what will more likely buy our guy's space and keep the other team too occupied to constantly head hunt Larkin, et al.

I agree. The correlation that I'm trying to make by pointing out fighting majors, is that the players that play the game that way (size, sandpaper, take the body, back the other team up), more often than not, end up fighting throughout the season. The fighting majors are an indication that these teams have the gritty types of players on their roster and that the Wings do not. The fights come as a result of having players play a tough, gritty type of hockey that opens up space, not necessarily that BECAUSE of the fighting they open up space.

 

[Bench]

I agree. The correlation that I'm trying to make by pointing out fighting majors, is that the players that play the game that way (size, sandpaper, take the body, back the other team up), more often than not, end up fighting throughout the season. The fighting majors are an indication that these teams have the gritty types of players on their roster and that the Wings do not. The fights come as a result of having players play a tough, gritty type of hockey that opens up space, not necessarily that BECAUSE of the fighting they open up space.

Are you trying to say Ericsson is also your favorite Red Wing?

I remember being so excited the Wings got Hatcher. Man, that was huge for me. A big, hard hitting American defender who didn't take crap from anybody on my favorite skill team. Was going to be glorious. Too bad he couldn't skate.

But I've always been about the Wings adding more sandpaper. People hear me drone on about Kesler. He's not having a good year, like all the Ducks, but I still think he's tailor made for the playoffs. What more could you want from a #2 center? Yes yes, dat contract.

But careful, I hate guys like Steve Ott. They are full of dumb penalties and their grit is more showmanship than results.

In another thread we talked about getting our dream young forward. Seguin is a popular pick. But I went with Tarasenko because of stuff like this...



Stuff like that gets me hot and bothered.

 

[sepster]

I want the Wings to make a concerted effort to identify and acquire the next Shanahan and McCarty and Lapointe.

I want the next Jamie Benn (drafted at 129th overall after the Wings had selected Smith and Andersson).

 

[Chance on Chance]

If I had to guess the teams with a lot of fight are the retaliatory type from big hits or scrums, The wings dont do any of these which is kinda disappointing because we have no one to do it. Z gets crosschecked in the back 8 times and everyone says oh well ill kinda grab him.

I agree an enforcer wont stop it but it would be nice to have some guys stick up and mess thing up with other teams instead of saying hey dont do that