What's it gonna take

[newfy]

What are we really asking for, though? Are we looking for guys who can pot twenty goals and handle the rough stuff, or not be a black hole for ten minutes on the fourth line? Matt Martin is set to be a UFA this summer, he gets 10 minutes a night for the Isles, he's even on the season which isn't bad for their forwards, he throws his body around and he's had five fights this year.

In todays league, Matt Martin would be the perfect guy to add to the wings fourth line. The crap people say about how a tough guy has to score 20 to play a regular role is crap. The entire wings fourth line wont have a player put up 20 points. Martin is an upgrade on any winger the wings have on the fourth line right now. He grew up a wings fan and is from the area, it would be awesome if he could be signed this off season.

I dont think the wings are super soft, but adding one more guy like Martin that is arguably the most physical in the league, would really make that grit/skill balance great. The wings are going to have a lot of young guys in the line up soon. Its worth looking into.

He only gets 14 points. I think Glendenning (offensive black hole) will probably have more points then that If I want a Tough guy, Ill just get All Star John Scott

Lets just pretend like Neil wasnt a great leader, third liner most of his career who put up double digit goals 5 years or so of his career while being one of the hardest hitters and a great fighter and take his worst season of his career to use as an example. Chris Neil was a very good hockey player. Is YZerman a 34 point player because of his last season?

Last night Abby provided exactly what OP is looking for. And get this, he can actually play the game better than the Neils, Scotts, etc.

If people honestly think Neil is comparable to Scott they need to start actually watching games. Half the time on this board it seems like if a guy fights hes automatically a talentless goon. A Chris Neil type would be perfect for the wings right now. Extremely hard hitter, great fighter, a leader, ~10 goals and ~25 points from the bottom of the line up.

If Drew Miller or Andersson could fight and hit people on this board would call him a waste of a roster spot and talentless goon with their 8-15 points a year. Adding a Martin or Neil type that can play and do the dirty work would be great for the playoffs. A Martin or Neil plus Abby, Smith, Ericcson would make this team pretty solid physically to balance out the skill. I think theyre short one solid, physical guy to have that good balance

 

[KasperTheGrittyGhost]

I think the guys OP is looking for are in the system. Callahan could be an extra next year, Little Bert and Zach Nastasiuk both play physical games.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I think the guys OP is looking for are in the system. Callahan could be an extra next year, Little Bert and Zach Nastasiuk both play physical games.

Two of those guys are midgets who will intimidate no one. Nasty isn't really a fighter. It's like saying Glendening would protect Larkin. Not gonna happen. Like, ever. If you want a knuckle dragging goon who will fight Mike McKee is your guy. You just need to greatly limit his ice time so he's not a massive liability during the 99.99999% of the time when hockey's actually being played.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Two of those guys are midgets who will intimidate no one. Nasty isn't really a fighter. It's like saying Glendening would protect Larkin. Not gonna happen. Like, ever. If you want a knuckle dragging goon who will fight Mike McKee is your guy. You just need to greatly limit his ice time so he's not a massive liability during the 99.99999% of the time when hockey's actually being played.

Waste of a roster spot and you aren't going to scare anyone. The enforcer is a myth and goons have gone the way of the dinosaurs. The cap and the new rules have destroyed the integrity of the game and it is never coming back. Players aren't allowed to protect themselves and that is why they get run. Combine that with the rest of the new rules and you have the diminished version of hockey that they trot out every night in the NHL.

 

[Classicnamesup]

Tough teams protect themselves. When was the last time you heard about Tavares getting run and having a bunch of liberties taken? Or the Kings? NYI is a tough team and this is one of the softest in the league.

 

[sean3250]

Tough teams protect themselves. When was the last time you heard about Tavares getting run and having a bunch of liberties taken? Or the Kings? NYI is a tough team and this is one of the softest in the league.

When do players take legitimate runs at D and Z? Basically never.

 

[Classicnamesup]

I still see people mad about Z getting head slammed into the boards and Cowen throwing an elbow at Dats head. Not only that but I have seen this team be intimidated which hurts their play. Not often, this team is pretty resilient but it has happened.

IIRC Pulks was hurt by a questionable hit, no?

 

[aar000n]

When do players take legitimate runs at D and Z? Basically never.

A lot

 

[sean3250]

I still see people mad about Z getting head slammed into the boards and Cowen throwing an elbow at Dats head. Not only that but I have seen this team be intimidated which hurts their play. Not often, this team is pretty resilient but it has happened.

IIRC Pulks was hurt by a questionable hit, no?

I assume your referring to the Weber incident a while back? That was bad but if that's the only one that sticks out, that's not bad considering how long he's been in the league.

That Cowen hit really pissed me off too. I was pissed when no one did anything either. I can't really remember many more incidents where both of these players have been run at though.

I remember when Nolan boarded Helm last year, and Ericsson preceded to beat the hell out of Nolan. Ericsson, Abdelkader, and Smith (when he's in the lineup) do a fine job "protecting" our players.

And I'm not sure about the Pulks hit but I remember his injury being caused by awkwardly going into the boards (which was caused by another player, I just don't know if it was a dirty hit).

A lot

Disagree. And these guys are grown men. They shouldn't and don't need anyone to protect them. I haven't seen any of these players get clobbered or anything like that on open ice, and it's not like they are getting run at every game or getting injured all the time.

I'm not gonna lie and say this is a tough team, but they are definitely not soft.

Up until this year, while teams were trying to play tough, we had no problem just out-possesing them up and down the ice. A skill game beats the tough guy game 10/10.

Out of all the Cup winners since 08, the only real tough team were the Kings, and I'm sure some will argue the Bruins, but I would disagree with that notion.

 

[chances14]

I still see people mad about Z getting head slammed into the boards and Cowen throwing an elbow at Dats head.

IIRC Pulks was hurt by a questionable hit, no?

having tough guys in the lineup doesn't stop that from happening.

i would like to see our 4th line be a more physical. but regardless how tough your team is, you are still going to be on the receiving end of questionable hits and cheapshots

 

[Vatican Roulette]

Ericsson fights.
Smith fights.

Could Detroit use a 4th line forward that could fight?

Yes. But he also has to be able to play on the Wings 4th line.

Also worth to note that usually the players that have both of those qualities don't usually last that long in the league.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

Also totally on board with signing Matt Martin.

 

[Bench]

Also worth to note that usually the players that have both of those qualities don't usually last that long in the league.

And the whole concussion thing. If the league is serious about stopping concussions, fighting is going to become an antiquated thing of the past. Repeated blows to the head, even those with no immediate visible damage, are detrimental to player health.

Refs, and the league rules, need to step in to be the solution. Not this yesteryear idea of bullying your way to protection and intimidating victories.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

And the whole concussion thing. If the league is serious about stopping concussions, fighting is going to become an antiquated thing of the past. Repeated blows to the head, even those with no immediate visible damage, are detrimental to player health.

Refs, and the league rules, need to step in to be the solution. Not this yesteryear idea of bullying your way to protection and intimidating victories.

IMO the whole concussion thing will be amplified if there is no fighting.

But thats a convo for another time.

 

[Bench]

IMO the whole concussion thing will be amplified if there is no fighting.

But thats a convo for another time.

But how? Is your position that sustaining brain damage while fighting reduces brain damage elsewhere?

I'm all for physical hockey, but the showmanship and tradition of fighting isn't apart of the future of our game, I'm afraid to say. It doesn't prevent injuries, it creates them.

 

[chances14]

But how? Is your position that sustaining brain damage while fighting reduces brain damage elsewhere?

I'm all for physical hockey, but the showmanship and tradition of fighting isn't apart of the future of our game, I'm afraid to say. It doesn't prevent injuries, it creates them.

it's the don cherry logic. fights prevent cheapshots, meaning less headshots, meaning less concussions

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

it's the don cherry logic. fights prevent cheapshots, meaning less headshots, meaning less concussions

It should be pointed out when polled the NHLPA remains a staunch advocate of keeping fighting in the game, to the tune of around 98% the last time I looked. Will that number start to come down, maybe but it has a massive way to go which honestly is hard to see without a shocking event we all hope doesn't take place happening in a fight at the NHL, AHL or CHL level.

It is collectively bargained and the NHLPA shows no willingness to take fighting out in totality. I can see the penalties getting stiffer at some point in the next decade or so, but I don't think fighting will be completely eradicated from the game. I am happy to see staged fighting go though.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Waste of a roster spot and you aren't going to scare anyone.

I'm not so sure about that. An article from earlier this year indicates McKee is 6'5" and 250 pounds. How many guys are going to want to go up against him? This isn't a guy who needs to be pushed to fight; it's in his DNA.

The Wings and WMU made the right decision to turn him into a forward. At defense he'd have to play 15+ minutes. As a grinder he can play 5-10 minutes. If he can forecheck and become a net front presence he could be exactly the type of guy who can hold down a spot on the 4th line and not be missed during a 5 minute fighting penalty or an unsportsmanlike penalty for taking a run at someone.

So when people suggest we need to overpay for a run of the mill goon my opinion is we continue to draft and develop guys like McKee. The Wings absolutely could not draft and develop a goalie until Jimmy Howard. Then they got Petr Mrazek. All of the sudden the Wings have a nice little group of goalies if you include Jared Coreau, whose save percentages are actually better than Howard's were in Grand Rapids.

Having d-men who can scrap and play the game are pretty rare. However forwards who play limited ice time are perfect for retaliation and playing a more physical game. Nastasiak and Bertuzzi both fit as forechekers who can play the body. However they have no ability whatsoever to be consitent fighters in the NHL. McKee absolutely would once his game is fully developed as a 4th line agitator.

 

[Lampedampe]

What are you guys talking about? We already have a goon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmvlPVnXOAs

On a serious note though i don't think that the wings should go after a enforcer.. However add a top-9 big power foward a player like that can easily stand up for the young guys and throw hits to get the team going. It's something that this team is really missing, i mean we have abby but he's more of a hardnosed guys who drives the net and gets dirty doesn't really go for the hits and doesn't really do fights. And as i said, a top-9 winger so someone who can actually score and have some impact in other areas than just hits and fights.. I don't know who that would be though tbh,

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I hate this thread.

 

[Claypool]

It should be pointed out when polled the NHLPA remains a staunch advocate of keeping fighting in the game, to the tune of around 98% the last time I looked.

Of course they do. The NHLPA opposed mandatory visors and helmets once, too.

 

[Bench]

Of course they do. The NHLPA opposed mandatory visors and helmets once, too.

No kidding.

There was a time players complained the visors ruined their on-ice vision. And then shortly thereafter every leading scorer was wearing a visor, including Ovechkin and his sweet tints and Datsyuk with the sickest of dangles wearing basically a full visor, so it kind of became clear that wasn't even remotely true.

If you want to reduce high speed headshots, the obvious solution is allowing more clutch and grab hockey. At which point I think Ericsson becomes twice the defender he is now, so maybe we should be on board as Wings fans.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Of course they do. The NHLPA opposed mandatory visors and helmets once, too.

No kidding.

There was a time players complained the visors ruined their on-ice vision. And then shortly thereafter every leading scorer was wearing a visor, including Ovechkin and his sweet tints and Datsyuk with the sickest of dangles wearing basically a full visor, so it kind of became clear that wasn't even remotely true.

If you want to reduce high speed headshots, the obvious solution is allowing more clutch and grab hockey. At which point I think Ericsson becomes twice the defender he is now, so maybe we should be on board as Wings fans.

Neither of those things had nearly the resistance that fighting has from the NHLPA, just they should be allowed a preference... But you're not looking at the overwhelming support fighting has from the NHLPA.

Careful what you wish for, the biggest cause of concussions is quite clearly body checks and not even of the illegal variety... Fighting has gone by in large the way I want it to as a hockey fan. There is a total lack of enforcers, staged fights to start games or line shifts have by in large gone completely away. They are emotional instances when something is way out of line or a player feels wronged by another player by in large.

I think the move towards an automatic game misconduct is coming though within the next decade or so. I still think in those emotional instances it will be worth it for guys to fight, it just will dip again.

Could be missing something but when is the last serious concussion from fighting? Honestly the last one I remember is George Parros.

 

[Claypool]

Neither of those things had nearly the resistance that fighting has from the NHLPA, just they should be allowed a preference... But you're not looking at the overwhelming support fighting has from the NHLPA.

They wouldn't advocate removing "part of the game" that would lose certain players jobs (the ones that remain, anyway). That's how the NHLPA works. They protect themselves. They don't care about player safety, and for some reason care about what the dinosaurs that came before them think about the league and where it's going. NHLPA committee members don't want to be part of a video segment on Coach's Corner with Don Cherry lambasting you for suggesting fighting should be penalized more heavily, or have old geezers like Bobby Clarke or Brendan Shanahan saying your comments about fighting are ridiculous. The NHLPA is and will continue to be a old boys club.

 

[Bench]

Could be missing something but when is the last serious concussion from fighting? Honestly the last one I remember is George Parros.

The issue isn't a singular fight causing a singular injury. It's the issue of sustained brain trauma accumulating over time. Brain damage happens incrementally. Repeated blows, even those with no visible issues, compound to head injury. Fighting introduces exactly this and exposes players to risk for future problems that include behavior changes, mood swings, depression, volatility, etc.

This issue has a spotlight at the moment with the Concussion movie out. It's also why youth soccer has had to reevaluate it's policies of late, despite lack of major, visible blows. We're more proactive with these issues in children than we are professional athletes.

In a high speed sport you can't eliminate all risk, but fighting is a very easy one to remove if you're serious about the long-term health of your athletes. If you're in favor of keeping fights, that's fine, but to do so puts the onus on players, fans, and league being willing to accept you're taking a significant risks with player welfare.

Many people write this off saying, "Well they make millions of dollars" but my primary objection comes from the fact the fighters of the league typically aren't in that financial category and retaining goons and the tradition only serves to create a health liability that I, as a fan, am not comfortable taking on for the brief moments of enjoyment it produces.

In short, the league needs to remove fighting, goons shouldn't protect star players, and the Wings need guys who can push their way through traffic and take players off the puck, not ye old intimidation tactics.