What's it gonna take

[DanZ]

ITT: People that don't know what diving is.

Yeah, I'm sure Larkin dove head first into the boards because that isn't dangerous at all. Totally worth it for a 2 minute penalty.

 

[Martinez]

MOD If anyone will protect him from hits it will be himself.

 

[chances14]

the enforcer myth seriously needs to die. this isn't the 80's or 90's anymore.

having goons in your lineup does not prevent the other team from going after the stars. the hockey news did an article a few years ago and found that there was actually a small increase in incidents with a team's star players when there was an enforcer on your team

 

[sean3250]

Larkin is 6'1 190 at 19. Give him a 2-3 years to fill out and not be a teenager anymore, and he'll be a pretty big dude. If he gets to like 210 or so he can easily play that North-South PF game he likes to try and play. He's the only player on this team I've actually seen take the puck to the net. Hell, even now he handles himself just fine physically.. I like his fire and he makes sure he doesn't take anyones ****. I can see him starting to fight a little bit in a few years when he's not a kid anymore.

And for people who don't think we have any tough guys I beg to differ.

Ericcson is 6'5 and plenty tough. He's a heavyweight and can basically go against anybody in the league. I remember when he beat the hell out of Nolan when he boarded Helm last year. I wish he'd throw the body around a little bit more but he's perfectly capable to step up to anybody.

Abdelkader is a pretty big guy at 6'2 220. He loves to hit and does a good job standing up for guys on his line. He's actually a pretty decent scorer, too, much better than some terrible enforcer

Then there's Smith. 6'2 210. IMO, he's pound for pound the toughest guy on the team. He can actually fight pretty well and doesn't mind stepping up to people. He rocked Chipchurra (tough guy) this year. He's had a few other fights that were very good, IIRC. I know he was hurt in a fight (which he won I'm pretty sure) and hasn't fought much since, but I really believe he should get back into it.

This team really isn't small anymore. Marchenko is plenty capable of handling himself at 210lbs. Kronwall is excellent at hitting, albeit he never does much anymore. Sheahan has the ability to hit and play physical although he doesn't play this way for some reason. (OT, but maybe this is contributing to his play this year?) Glenny can handle himself. Jurco too.

I'm not really sure where this notion that Detroit is some super soft team has come from? They're not a physical team but that doesn't mean they are getting abused physically. These are grown men who take pride in not being a ***** (minus Kindl). This team is full of players that can protect themselves, and a few who can play overtly physical/fight.

 

[Frk It]

Larkin is 6'1 190 at 19. Give him a 2-3 years to fill out and not be a teenager anymore, and he'll be a pretty big dude. If he gets to like 210 or so he can easily play that North-South PF game he likes to try and play. He's the only player on this team I've actually seen take the puck to the net. Hell, even now he handles himself just fine physically.. I like his fire and he makes sure he doesn't take anyones ****. I can see him starting to fight a little bit in a few years when he's not a kid anymore.

And for people who don't think we have any tough guys I beg to differ.

Ericcson is 6'5 and plenty tough. He's a heavyweight and can basically go against anybody in the league. I remember when he beat the hell out of Nolan when he boarded Helm last year. I wish he'd throw the body around a little bit more but he's perfectly capable to step up to anybody.

Abdelkader is a pretty big guy at 6'2 220. He loves to hit and does a good job standing up for guys on his line. He's actually a pretty decent scorer, too, much better than some terrible enforcer

Then there's Smith. 6'2 210. IMO, he's pound for pound the toughest guy on the team. He can actually fight pretty well and doesn't mind stepping up to people. He rocked Chipchurra (tough guy) this year. He's had a few other fights that were very good, IIRC. I know he was hurt in a fight (which he won I'm pretty sure) and hasn't fought much since, but I really believe he should get back into it.

This team really isn't small anymore. Marchenko is plenty capable of handling himself at 210lbs. Kronwall is excellent at hitting, albeit he never does much anymore. Sheahan has the ability to hit and play physical although he doesn't play this way for some reason. (OT, but maybe this is contributing to his play this year?) Glenny can handle himself. Jurco too.

I'm not really sure where this notion that Detroit is some super soft team has come from? They're not a physical team but that doesn't mean they are getting abused physically. These are grown men who take pride in not being a ***** (minus Kindl). This team is full of players that can protect themselves, and a few who can play overtly physical/fight.

Totally agree on Larkin, only guy I can think of in the top 9 that plays a north-south game consistently.

 

[GMR]

What's Dolph Lundgren up to these days?

He's Swedish, looks to still be in decent shape and likely has some hockey experience.

 

[Winger98]

Ericcson is 6'5 and plenty tough. He's a heavyweight and can basically go against anybody in the league. I remember when he beat the hell out of Nolan when he boarded Helm last year. I wish he'd throw the body around a little bit more but he's perfectly capable to step up to anybody.

Abdelkader is a pretty big guy at 6'2 220. He loves to hit and does a good job standing up for guys on his line. He's actually a pretty decent scorer, too, much better than some terrible enforcer

Then there's Smith. 6'2 210. IMO, he's pound for pound the toughest guy on the team. He can actually fight pretty well and doesn't mind stepping up to people. He rocked Chipchurra (tough guy) this year. He's had a few other fights that were very good, IIRC. I know he was hurt in a fight (which he won I'm pretty sure) and hasn't fought much since, but I really believe he should get back into it.

This team really isn't small anymore. Marchenko is plenty capable of handling himself at 210lbs. Kronwall is excellent at hitting, albeit he never does much anymore. Sheahan has the ability to hit and play physical although he doesn't play this way for some reason. (OT, but maybe this is contributing to his play this year?) Glenny can handle himself. Jurco too.

Smith is also a borderline scratch every night, Sheahan isn't physical at all, and Jurco's physical game has slid drastically over his short career with the Wings, and that's when he's in the lineup. You named two guys who are routine scratches when we're at all healthy, and a couple of other guys who have some size but don't use it.

I'd like to see a couple more Abdelkader-ish guys. These guys who are big but don't bang, they might as well be small and more skilled.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

At the same time, Holland has had a million chances to waive him but hasn't.

I assumed the thread was actually "to get rid of Kindl?"

For me, Holland's keeping Kindl around is more inexplicable than what went down with Cleary. He's a 28 year old D-man with 6 season experience in the league and he's never made it through a season without being a healthy scratch. He's just not an NHL caliber player.

Kindl has one more year on his contract so I'm assuming we'll be seeing him next season as well. Then he'll probably go the way of Lebda...


More to the topic, I don't think Detroit needs goons, but I would love a 4th line with more of a crash bang identity. There's players out there who can hit, will fight when needed, and physically grind teams down. It seems like our 4th line has been a mishmash of defensively responsible but fairly vanilla type players for several seasons now.

 

[sean3250]

Smith is also a borderline scratch every night, Sheahan isn't physical at all, and Jurco's physical game has slid drastically over his short career with the Wings, and that's when he's in the lineup. You named two guys who are routine scratches when we're at all healthy, and a couple of other guys who have some size but don't use it.

I'd like to see a couple more Abdelkader-ish guys. These guys who are big but don't bang, they might as well be small and more skilled.

Smith has definitely rebounded from a bad start, and has been playing well in a bottom pairing role. He'll make a great #6 when Quincey comes back. I doubt that Blash is going to bench Smith if his play continues.

Sheahan doesn't play a physical game, but he has the ability to do so, imo. Why he doesn't is beyond me though. He's 225. He could if he wanted too, and maybe it's something coaches should tell him to do more often. Nonetheless he's never been pushed around by anyone really.

We have players with size. I don't know why a select few don't use it (Sheahan and Kindl being the main culprits). Even though they don't use it, they do have the ability to defend themselves or their teammates if need be (not so much Kindl). We have two defenseman who can fight very well. We have Abdelkader who sticks up for teammates and can fight if need be. As stated in my previous post give Larkin 2-3 years and he should have no problem being plenty physical and fighting if need be. He's already trying to play that North-South style which is great. And he's already doing a decent job standing up to most players from what I've seen. He's only 19, still a kid. The future has players like Mantha and AA who aren't pushovers. Mantha even fights. Little Bert might be a long shot but he'd make a great pest, and has no problem fighting anyone too.

And I agree with you on Jurco. I just brought him up to demonstrate that most of our 13-14 forwards aren't pushovers. It's too bad what happened/ is happening to Jurco. He seemed to have a bright future but his play has been steadily decreasing. That first 36 game stint was very good. It's unfortunate that its gone downhill since.

 

[Ezekial]

Abdelkader is enough.

Larks will be fine.

 

[JPE123]

The goons are not coming back, I think we all know that. One thing I'd be in favor of- If you injure a player on a penalized play, you sit out as long as the injured player does without salary. Of course CBA wouldn't go for it but they should if the players respect each other

 

[PelagicJoe]

The goons are not coming back, I think we all know that. One thing I'd be in favor of- If you injure a player on a penalized play, you sit out as long as the injured player does without salary. Of course CBA wouldn't go for it but they should if the players respect each other

That is an interesting idea. I was also thinking that back in the goon days, there was an unwritten code not to go after the Gretzkys, Yzermans, Lemieuxs, etc in the game.
No such code exists today.

 

[benusmc]

Neil who makes 2 million, scores 14 points a year? That's a goon.

I suppose Andersson must be our goon with his 8 points last year. Also aren't Sheehan and Helm hovering around 20ish points for this year, at their current pace? Not that I think we need a goon. But we should have a few people that will make you pay physically if you **** with our players.

 

[benusmc]

What's Dolph Lundgren up to these days?

He's Swedish, looks to still be in decent shape and likely has some hockey experience.

http://www.avclub.com/article/here-are-first-official-photos-dolph-lundgren-kind-230092

 

[SpookyTsuki]

That is an interesting idea. I was also thinking that back in the goon days, there was an unwritten code not to go after the Gretzkys, Yzermans, Lemieuxs, etc in the game.
No such code exists today.

I think most of them did, except Pronger and then he got what was coming to him

 

[Winger98]

Smith has definitely rebounded from a bad start, and has been playing well in a bottom pairing role. He'll make a great #6 when Quincey comes back. I doubt that Blash is going to bench Smith if his play continues.

Sheahan doesn't play a physical game, but he has the ability to do so, imo. Why he doesn't is beyond me though. He's 225. He could if he wanted too, and maybe it's something coaches should tell him to do more often. Nonetheless he's never been pushed around by anyone really.

We have players with size. I don't know why a select few don't use it (Sheahan and Kindl being the main culprits). Even though they don't use it, they do have the ability to defend themselves or their teammates if need be (not so much Kindl). We have two defenseman who can fight very well. We have Abdelkader who sticks up for teammates and can fight if need be. As stated in my previous post give Larkin 2-3 years and he should have no problem being plenty physical and fighting if need be. He's already trying to play that North-South style which is great. And he's already doing a decent job standing up to most players from what I've seen. He's only 19, still a kid. The future has players like Mantha and AA who aren't pushovers. Mantha even fights. Little Bert might be a long shot but he'd make a great pest, and has no problem fighting anyone too.

And I agree with you on Jurco. I just brought him up to demonstrate that most of our 13-14 forwards aren't pushovers. It's too bad what happened/ is happening to Jurco. He seemed to have a bright future but his play has been steadily decreasing. That first 36 game stint was very good. It's unfortunate that its gone downhill since.

Smith's rebounded but, if we're healthy, I'd lean Marchenko to fill out the third pair. I like his game more at this point. If Smith was putting up points left and right, I'd probably sing a different tune.

With Sheahan, no idea. The only thing I can think of is that he's too hung up on not getting burned defensively. I know it's been brought up elsewhere, but I'd like to see what he does at wing. A guy his size should show it a bit more often, especially if he's not going to be a defensive freak or put up a fair number (40+) of points.

I agree that we're not pushovers, but we don't initiate a lot of contact, and we do a lot of the "sacrifice to make a play" type of physical play, which is important and good and all, but I think if we could add a more physical element it would help put other teams on their heels a bit, open up some space, and even help us in the defensive end a bit where guys are maybe looking over their shoulders a bit more.

As I said, I don't think we even need to do anything drastic. Just move out guys like Andersson and Miller on the fourth line, and bring in guys who play a bit heavier, a bit harder. We've started playing that line 10 minutes a night now anyway, so it's not even like we'd be slashing their IT at this point.

 

[DatsDeking]

If Sheahan started to throw hits and the other team decided to throw them back against his line we'd be in big trouble. Tatar and Nyquist cannot fight for themselves, let alone take a hit.

That being said Abby and Ericsson should get a bit more physical when guys rough up our players. Q and Smith bring it a bit too.

 

[Bench]

the enforcer myth seriously needs to die. this isn't the 80's or 90's anymore.

having goons in your lineup does not prevent the other team from going after the stars. the hockey news did an article a few years ago and found that there was actually a small increase in incidents with a team's star players when there was an enforcer on your team

I blame Gretzky. Guy was tremendously gracious to the goons on his team, inflating their worth with soundbites about how he owed so much of his career to them. This was in an era where we're to believe star players would be killed on the ice if not for fear of a fisticuffs with a brawler.

People from my generation grew up with these stories and it really sunk in. I think Gretzky overstated their importance then, but in the modern NHL it's become even less important.

Physical hockey wins games. Big players who can push you around win games. But these guys need to be able to skate, pass, and make good decisions like everybody else. Probert was one of those guys. They don't make 'um like that often, though.

 

[detredWINgs]

Most teams are lucky to have more than 1-2 guys in their top 9 who fight or are at least Abby-esque guys.

Our problem, IMO, is that our 4th line ****ing blows when it comes to physicality. Jurco is still trying to resurrect his career as a top-niner and, IMO, will only adopt a power forward game if he sees it as a last resort. Miller is a beanpole. Glen is too small (and barely even agitates anymore) to do much damage, and Andy is a sorry collection of atoms all around.

We need a new dimension on that line. Like Abdelkader, before Abby was given 200 games alongside Datsyuk and Zetterberg and finally learned how to complete an NHL-level pass.

 

[Zippy316]

I did not see much of the Devils game so it's possible they targeted him. In all seriousness though, he is playing like the Red Wings best forward so it is a bit understandable.

However, from what I did watch, Larkin seems to be trying to draw calls by embellishing often. Sometimes, the penalty is debatable. The Moore hit at the end of the second is certainly debatable. You can argue Moore pushed him in an awkward position, but at the same time, Larkin was well aware of Moore behind him and made no attempt to brace himself. On the first Devils goal, it seems as if Larkin was hooked by Merrill, but the view from behind Howard shows that the hook was marginal at best. Larkin tried to sell the call.

Here's the video of the Palmieri goal, if you watch the replays you can see what I mean:

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/?id=2015020509-88-h

It could just have been an anomaly in this game. You guys can probably speak for if that is a regular occurrence, but if it is, I wonder if some of this abuse is doubled as him embellishing, especially in the Moore hit.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I did not see much of the Devils game so it's possible they targeted him. In all seriousness though, he is playing like the Red Wings best forward so it is a bit understandable.

However, from what I did watch, Larkin seems to be trying to draw calls by embellishing often. Sometimes, the penalty is debatable. The Moore hit at the end of the second is certainly debatable. You can argue Moore pushed him in an awkward position, but at the same time, Larkin was well aware of Moore behind him and made no attempt to brace himself. On the first Devils goal, it seems as if Larkin was hooked by Merrill, but the view from behind Howard shows that the hook was marginal at best. Larkin tried to sell the call.

Here's the video of the Palmieri goal, if you watch the replays you can see what I mean:

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/?id=2015020509-88-h

It could just have been an anomaly in this game. You guys can probably speak for if that is a regular occurrence, but if it is, I wonder if some of this abuse is doubled as him embellishing, especially in the Moore hit.

Larkin embellishes to be sure. A part of it is he is 19, he is a strong kid but he doesn't have full on man strength yet... He also is moving at an incredible rate of speed, to the degree it worries me in terms of when you get off balance like that you are going down. I hope he doesn't have a McDavid like incident. But that issue exists when you are moving as fast as he does.

Still he will need to learn to not sell things quite as often, it isn't winning him many favors with either his peers or the refs in my opinion.

 

[GMR]

Most teams are lucky to have more than 1-2 guys in their top 9 who fight or are at least Abby-esque guys.

Our problem, IMO, is that our 4th line ****ing blows when it comes to physicality. Jurco is still trying to resurrect his career as a top-niner and, IMO, will only adopt a power forward game if he sees it as a last resort. Miller is a beanpole. Glen is too small (and barely even agitates anymore) to do much damage, and Andy is a sorry collection of atoms all around.

We need a new dimension on that line. Like Abdelkader, before Abby was given 200 games alongside Datsyuk and Zetterberg and finally learned how to complete an NHL-level pass.

I agree. The 4th line has been soft for many years. We could sign Brock Lesnar tomorrow to center the 4th line and we'd still look weak with Miller and Andersson next to him.

Sheahan is even worse. He makes Franzen look like a prime Eric Lindros as far as physicality goes. Total waste of size.

 

[Zippy316]

Larkin embellishes to be sure. A part of it is he is 19, he is a strong kid but he doesn't have full on man strength yet... He also is moving at an incredible rate of speed, to the degree it worries me in terms of when you get off balance like that you are going down. I hope he doesn't have a McDavid like incident. But that issue exists when you are moving as fast as he does.

Still he will need to learn to not sell things quite as often, it isn't winning him many favors with either his peers or the refs in my opinion.

Maybe that's where part of the problem lies.

Teams know they can be physical with him and hes going to often times embellish and take himself out of the play in that way. It doesn't seem like it's winning him any calls right now, so teams are going to play him aggressively. On that Palmieri goal, Merrill pressures him and Larkin embellishes to try and draw the call and takes himself out of the play in the process.

He's got the skill to turn that puck back and re-enter the zone or get it down low, but he chose to submit to the physical play, try to draw the call, and lost the puck in the process. Maybe it's a learning curve but you would think with a guy of his skill he would just play through these incidents. It's not like he's a guy like Scuderi who tries to draw boarding penalties because he doesn't offer much else.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Just put Mike McKee on this team at forward. He can play 5 mins a night and fight if necessary. You aren't going to do much better than that without overpaying for a worthless plug. Columbus sure looks awesome!

 

[no.95]

I too miss the days when we had that superb mix of skill and grit, when we pretty much had guys who could go in practically every line, when we couldn't get pushed around by anyone at all. All this while being able to play at least decent hockey. Thing is though, guys like D-mac, Lapointe and to some degree even Kocur (perhaps not skill wise, but the combo of being perhaps the most feared player ever whole being somewhat decent in a limited role) are extremely rare in today's game, and then of course Shanahan who was one of the best power forwards ever. Add in Primeau, Vladdy and even Maltby and Drake etc. and one would understand why one would be asking for more grit. And that's not even counting Probert who was traded before we became realgud. I essence, we've been somewhat spoiled when it comes to success and physical play.

Unfortunately they don't make guys like that anymore. The game has changed and you probably won't find as many decent gritty players in the league as we had in our core during our better years.

In other words, if we're able to find players who can play and fight I'd be all for it. There's Simmonds, Kane and a couple of others, then what?