Whats happening? Camps open in a few weeks.

[Bear in the Woods]

I thought this thread was about "What's happening at Camps"?

 

[MatthewsMoustache]

I thought this thread was about "What's happening at Camps"?

Unfortunately everything goes back to COVID in terms of what’s going to happen at camps, and so on.

 

[HockeyPops]

If a business does not feel comfortable operating inside the parameters set put by the Government, they can close up shop, take their ball, and go home.

How are these businesses not operating inside the parameters?

Now if businesses were operating without the mask mandate, that would be outside the parameters. If a business says to me you must put on a new mask every hour or leave, that is above and beyond the governments requirements, but it's their prerogative to have that policy and completely within the bounds of the Government's parameters.

The government dictates the hours a bar is allowed to open. But if I want to close my bar at 9pm, that is completely within the bounds of the Government's parameters.

No shoes, no shirt, no service is another example that certain businesses have a policy for, completely within the bounds.

I think it's barbaric what's happening in some states with governers trying to ban businesses from having a masking requirement. It sounds like you are suggesting something similar here, wanting our government to ban vaccine requirements. No thanks. If the government refuses to implement a vaccine passport, some businesses will set their own policies as they always have, and customers can vote with their pocketbooks.

 

[HockeyPops]

Ontario health units prepared to create their own vaccine certificate: Eastern Ontario top doctor

 

[PuckStop75]

Ontario health units prepared to create their own vaccine certificate: Eastern Ontario top doctor

What's wrong with the receipts the MOH is already issuing? You get a hard copy when you receive the vaccination and an electronic copy emailed to you. What am I missing here?

 

[BadgerBruce]

Here’s a link to an interesting article suggesting sports teams could lose sponsor money — and paying customers at the gate — if they aren’t seen to be supporting public health initiatives.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sask...-money-fans-if-no-vaccine-passports-1.6154973

 

[PuckStop75]

Here’s a link to an interesting article suggesting sports teams could lose sponsor money — and paying customers at the gate — if they aren’t seen to be supporting public health initiatives.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sask...-money-fans-if-no-vaccine-passports-1.6154973

Here's the thing, about 10-15% of the population is neurotic about getting the vaccine, and won't get it. Another 10-15% are neurotic about getting it and won't deal with anyone who hasn't been vaccinated, and trying to impose their will on others. That leaves approximately 70% of the population who is vaccinated and truly doesn't care one way or the other. If any of these facilities can maintain 70% capacity in the next 3 months they will be thrilled. See you at the rink!

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Here's the thing, about 10-15% of the population is neurotic about getting the vaccine, and won't get it. Another 10-15% are neurotic about getting it and won't deal with anyone who hasn't been vaccinated, and trying to impose their will on others. That leaves approximately 70% of the population who is vaccinated and truly doesn't care one way or the other. If any of these facilities can maintain 70% capacity in the next 3 months they will be thrilled. See you at the rink!

Good post. The pushing of the unvaccinated is only going to get them to dig their heels in more. From ridiculous fear mongering headlines of news outlets to still seeing cases with the vaccinated people. I can completely understand why individuals won't get the shot. Not to mention when I see doctors saying they want over 100% of individuals to get the shot (how is that possible)? I am not interested in putting my concerns or choices onto other people. Live the way that you choose to live it.

 

[HockeyPops]

Now i understand why the province has been dragging it's feet on vaccine passports.

CBC.ca: Trudeau promises $1B to help provinces pay for vaccine passports.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-promises-1b-vaccine-passports-1.6155618

 

[Otto]

Good post. The pushing of the unvaccinated is only going to get them to dig their heels in more. From ridiculous fear mongering headlines of news outlets to still seeing cases with the vaccinated people. I can completely understand why individuals won't get the shot. Not to mention when I see doctors saying they want over 100% of individuals to get the shot (how is that possible)? I am not interested in putting my concerns or choices onto other people. Live the way that you choose to live it.

Completely ignoring the facts of what's happening in B.C.

 

[PuckStop75]

Completely ignoring the facts of what's happening in B.C.

Looking at the big picture not just the 10-15% that suits my agenda.

 

[OHLTG]

If OHL rinks run at 75% and a person must show either proof of double vaccination OR proof of medical exemption... let's do that. At this point, you're not (likely) going to convince the "you can't make me!!" crowd and you'll only get part of the "I'm not sold..." crowd. Right now, we're at 76% provincially for double dose; how much higher can we get?

 

[HockeyPops]

Good post. The pushing of the unvaccinated is only going to get them to dig their heels in more. From ridiculous fear mongering headlines of news outlets to still seeing cases with the vaccinated people. I can completely understand why individuals won't get the shot. Not to mention when I see doctors saying they want over 100% of individuals to get the shot (how is that possible)? I am not interested in putting my concerns or choices onto other people. Live the way that you choose to live it.

Which doctor said they wanted over 100%?

I don't like putting my choices on others, either. They should have a right to choose. But for 1.5 years i have watched lockdown after lockdown as our ICUs have filled up. It is not the vaccinated filling up our ICUs, it is the unvaccinated. My children's right to attend school in-person trumps the unvaccinated's right to non essential businesses. So while I respect an individual's right to choose, I fully support mandatory vaccinations for non essential places of business, and a vaccine passport to go along with it. I feel that it is our best chance to get back to a mostly open economy without these recurring lockdowns.

I am strongly against forcing individuals to get vaccinated. But for those that choose not to, I support proactively shutting non essential businesses to them (through mandatory vaccination requirements), rather than reactively shutting non essential businesses for everybody (lockdowns).

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Which doctor said they wanted over 100%?

I don't like putting my choices on others, either. They should have a right to choose. But for 1.5 years i have watched lockdown after lockdown as our ICUs have filled up. It is not the vaccinated filling up our ICUs, it is the unvaccinated. My children's right to attend school in-person trumps the unvaccinated's right to non essential businesses. So while I respect an individual's right to choose, I fully support mandatory vaccinations for non essential places of business, and a vaccine passport to go along with it. I feel that it is our best chance to get back to a mostly open economy without these recurring lockdowns.

I am strongly against forcing individuals to get vaccinated. But for those that choose not to, I support proactively shutting non essential businesses to them (through mandatory vaccination requirements), rather than reactively shutting non essential businesses for everybody (lockdowns).

Sorry it was an official from Ontario Public Health.

'Herd immunity' no longer possible without vaccinating young children, Public Health Ontario says

“The critical threshold for vaccination is now estimated to be at least 90 per cent of the Ontario population, and over 100 per cent of the vaccine-eligible population,” Public Health Ontario says.

When you get over 100% of the vaccine eligible population let me know......

 

[HockeyPops]

They are saying that we can't reach herd immunity even if everyone currently eligible is fully vaccinated.

 

[OMG67]

How are these businesses not operating inside the parameters?

Now if businesses were operating without the mask mandate, that would be outside the parameters. If a business says to me you must put on a new mask every hour or leave, that is above and beyond the governments requirements, but it's their prerogative to have that policy and completely within the bounds of the Government's parameters.

The government dictates the hours a bar is allowed to open. But if I want to close my bar at 9pm, that is completely within the bounds of the Government's parameters.

No shoes, no shirt, no service is another example that certain businesses have a policy for, completely within the bounds.

I think it's barbaric what's happening in some states with governers trying to ban businesses from having a masking requirement. It sounds like you are suggesting something similar here, wanting our government to ban vaccine requirements. No thanks. If the government refuses to implement a vaccine passport, some businesses will set their own policies as they always have, and customers can vote with their pocketbooks.

Since you only quoted a portion of my post, I assume you are misinterpreting what that statement means in the context of the post. Let me try to clarify based on what I think you mean.

As of right now, there is no rule requiring or preventing a business to ask for proof of vaccination or negative covid test to grant entry. This means businesses are free to do whatever they want with respect to granting access to their business.

My post is, this responsibility should not be placed at the feet of businesses. There should be concise regulations patrons should be required to follow and the businesses would be responsible for monitoring and enforcing the regulations.

If a business is unwilling to abide by those regulations THEN they can choose to not operate.

That is what I meant.

So, for example, if the Government states that masks are not required for indoor access, a business should not mandate masking use as a means of entering their establishment. The Government has made a health directive and the businesses should not have authority to go beyond the mandate.

With respect to Proof of vaccination for the OHL, I believe it is unfair for the OHL to be placed in a situation where they felt the need to be Health Regulators because the Government is not willing to regulate the provisions surrounding proof of vaccination one way or the other. This also extends to other businesses and their choices.

With respect to your hours of operations example, the Government states that businesses with proper license can “offer and serve” alcohol between certain hours. This has nothing to do with what I am talking about. The example would be more close to allowing businesses an opportunity to serve alcohol or not serve alcohol with no need of a license to do so and with no regulations surrounding what they can serve, how they can serve it or in what quantities they can serve at one time. Nor is there any age restriction on the age of throes they can serve. Right now, the inaction of the Government is making it a free for all with respect to immunization requirements for accessing services.

 

[OMG67]

I know there is a lot of confusion but if we reach 85% of the population vaccinated fully and being fully vaccinated essentially keeps you out of a hospital bed, we should only need to take last winter’s hospitalization numbers and multiply by .15 and assume that is the number of Covid patients we will see in hospitals.

Now, that won’t be entirely accurate because Delta spreads much quicker and easily but it would be offset by the vulnerable and elderly community being vaccinated at a level above 90%. So, I am thinking it will probably balance out in that regard.

If we were to use the peak numbers from last winter, about 2000 in hospital, then our peak this winter should be around 15% of that (assuming a new more violent variant doesn’t spark up). So, we’d be looking at around 300 hospitalizations at the peak…give or take. That’s less than one patient per hospital in Ontario.

I was on a call today and the concern is paediatric cases. There seems to be a ramping up of preparations in this regard. I assume the under -12 will be approved soon but until then, that seems to be the preparation focus.

 

[Otto]

Sorry it was an official from Ontario Public Health.

'Herd immunity' no longer possible without vaccinating young children, Public Health Ontario says

“The critical threshold for vaccination is now estimated to be at least 90 per cent of the Ontario population, and over 100 per cent of the vaccine-eligible population,” Public Health Ontario says.

When you get over 100% of the vaccine eligible population let me know......

So it's not actually from Public Health's website, it's a news story that quite possibly got the quote wrong

 

[Otto]

Heaven forbid a business be allowed to make a decision to go over and above.

 

[HockeyPops]

15% is only a useful estimation if we do exactly what we did last winter. No OHL. NHL bubble. No GTHL. No travel hockey. Max of 50 fans in the arena in the places that do run hockey. Reduced class sizes in schools. Lockdown in January. Another lockdown in April. This can not be the goal. The goal is to be much more open than that (at least if you are vaccinated). There will be more opportunity for spread. Plus i think you are underestimating the additional transmissability of Delta. The 15% math simply doesn't work.

The government is not going to legislate against mandatory vaccinations. It helps the government reach their covid goals without any of the political backlash for doing it themselves. Why would they want to stop this? It helps the rest of the economy stay open, why would we want to stop this?

 

[OHLTG]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-vaccine-passport-1.6156343

 

[RayzorIsDull]

They are saying that we can't reach herd immunity even if everyone currently eligible is fully vaccinated.

Correct and I think this is one of the reasons why some are apprehensive against getting the vaccine. Even if everyone gets it the vaccinated people can still get it. I was out with a friend and he was asked by a random person at a place if he's been vaccinated. Let's just say that's an example of what this society has become from this. It isn't my responsibility or anyone elses to make others feel comfortable. If you don't want to be out then stay home. Yes arenas should be open to capacity that's a different discussion point but if you can have 15,000 at Rogers Center not masked up and sitting next to each other you're going to get hesitation from individuals.

 

[shot caller]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-vaccine-passport-1.6156343

Finally - thank goodness.

 

[OMG67]

15% is only a useful estimation if we do exactly what we did last winter. No OHL. NHL bubble. No GTHL. No travel hockey. Max of 50 fans in the arena in the places that do run hockey. Reduced class sizes in schools. Lockdown in January. Another lockdown in April. This can not be the goal. The goal is to be much more open than that (at least if you are vaccinated). There will be more opportunity for spread. Plus i think you are underestimating the additional transmissability of Delta. The 15% math simply doesn't work.

The government is not going to legislate against mandatory vaccinations. It helps the government reach their covid goals without any of the political backlash for doing it themselves. Why would they want to stop this? It helps the rest of the economy stay open, why would we want to stop this?

I’m not comfortable creating a second class citizen that cannot have access to places others can.

As soon as you do that, that’s where it starts, not where it ends.

I think instead of carrying a card, just force unvaccinated people to wear an identifying symbol while out in public. Maybe something like a yellow star or something. That way you can avoid them while they are in public places they are allowed to be.

The end…

 

[HockeyPops]

This virus isn't going anywhere. If we are seeing a surge now, when kids are not in school and the cold weather hasn't yet forced us inside, and we still aren't yet fully open, it's telling me that existing measures are not sufficient, not until vaccination rates are much higher. I support new targeted measures if it reduces the likelihood of another lockdown. This is a case of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of a few.