Whats happening? Camps open in a few weeks.

[OMG67]

Just saw Faucci on TV. He said nobody can honestly say what the number is because it's something we've never faced before. We'll know when we get there. Until then the goal is to get as many people vaccinated as possible.

The Grey area is how long fully vaccinated status lasts. And what constitutes fully vaccinated with respect to this. Right now, fully Vaccinated means two shots. I don’t think that will be the same in November depending on what cohort you are categorized into and when you had your second shot.

The effectiveness of the vaccine is waning. This was predicted. The issue wasn’t whether it was going to wane but how long until it did. On top of that, the Vaccine is developed based on the original strain. As this mutates, it becomes less effective. For example, recent data indicated that Pfizer is now down to 88% effective vs the Delta Variant as opposed to 95+% against the original strain.

We are already hearing rumblings of 3rd dose requirements for elderly and vulnerable cohorts starting this fall. If/when this happens, what constitutes fully Vaccinated with respect to admissions? Is this something businesses will decide individually for themselves? Should they? Are they being responsible if they allow patrons over 70 years old with ONLY two shots into their establishments?

Do you see where this is going?

This is why I am banging the drum on the Government making a decision with respect to the processes and procedures required for businesses to follow. If we think it is confusing now, just wait until January. You ain’t seen nuthin’ yet!

 

[PuckStop75]

The Grey area is how long fully vaccinated status lasts. And what constitutes fully vaccinated with respect to this. Right now, fully Vaccinated means two shots. I don’t think that will be the same in November depending on what cohort you are categorized into and when you had your second shot.

The effectiveness of the vaccine is waning. This was predicted. The issue wasn’t whether it was going to wane but how long until it did. On top of that, the Vaccine is developed based on the original strain. As this mutates, it becomes less effective. For example, recent data indicated that Pfizer is now down to 88% effective vs the Delta Variant as opposed to 95+% against the original strain.

We are already hearing rumblings of 3rd dose requirements for elderly and vulnerable cohorts starting this fall. If/when this happens, what constitutes fully Vaccinated with respect to admissions? Is this something businesses will decide individually for themselves? Should they? Are they being responsible if they allow patrons over 70 years old with ONLY two shots into their establishments?

Do you see where this is going?

This is why I am banging the drum on the Government making a decision with respect to the processes and procedures required for businesses to follow. If we think it is confusing now, just wait until January. You ain’t seen nuthin’ yet!

Enough Drama already!
Large facility operators and organizations like the OHL are removing the decision by saying if your not vaccinated you aren't getting in, we will sort out how we determine that; simultaneously saving tax payers millions of dollars while also enabling themselves to start generating income again. 80+% of the population is vaccinated its not a hard business decision.
Whatever direction you think this is going, is a conspiracy theory of its own.

 

[rangersblues]

The Grey area is how long fully vaccinated status lasts. And what constitutes fully vaccinated with respect to this. Right now, fully Vaccinated means two shots. I don’t think that will be the same in November depending on what cohort you are categorized into and when you had your second shot.

The effectiveness of the vaccine is waning. This was predicted. The issue wasn’t whether it was going to wane but how long until it did. On top of that, the Vaccine is developed based on the original strain. As this mutates, it becomes less effective. For example, recent data indicated that Pfizer is now down to 88% effective vs the Delta Variant as opposed to 95+% against the original strain.

We are already hearing rumblings of 3rd dose requirements for elderly and vulnerable cohorts starting this fall. If/when this happens, what constitutes fully Vaccinated with respect to admissions? Is this something businesses will decide individually for themselves? Should they? Are they being responsible if they allow patrons over 70 years old with ONLY two shots into their establishments?

Do you see where this is going?

This is why I am banging the drum on the Government making a decision with respect to the processes and procedures required for businesses to follow. If we think it is confusing now, just wait until January. You ain’t seen nuthin’ yet!

Hasn't the 3rd dose already been authorized for immunocompromised - cancer patients, transplant recipients etc? I believe 5 months after the 2nd dose.

 

[OMG67]

Hasn't the 3rd dose already been authorized for immunocompromised - cancer patients, transplant recipients etc? I believe 5 months after the 2nd dose.

It may very well have.

 

[OMG67]

Enough Drama already!
Large facility operators and organizations like the OHL are removing the decision by saying if your not vaccinated you aren't getting in, we will sort out how we determine that; simultaneously saving tax payers millions of dollars while also enabling themselves to start generating income again. 80+% of the population is vaccinated its not a hard business decision.
Whatever direction you think this is going, is a conspiracy theory of its own.

Proof of negative COVID test ( or proof of vaccination) is also part of many large space operators but it is not clear across the board. This is true for both the Blue Jays starting mid September and for MLSE run buildings this fall/winter.

We can suggest the implementation will be easy but I don’t think it will be easy. Big difference between making an announcement and formulating a strategy that ultimately will require Provincial approval.

 

[PuckStop75]

Proof of negative COVID test ( or proof of vaccination) is also part of many large space operators but it is not clear across the board. This is true for both the Blue Jays starting mid September and for MLSE run buildings this fall/winter.

We can suggest the implementation will be easy but I don’t think it will be easy. Big difference between making an announcement and formulating a strategy that ultimately will require Provincial approval.

Show your most recent vaccination receipt and a piece of ID. It’s not that difficult.

 

[OHLTG]

Ontario's top doctor willing to consider lifting capacity limits in venues with mandatory vaccination requirements

 

[HockeyPops]

This is a really big deal, and the Chief Medical Officer of Health makes it sound like more or less a slam dunk. This was always the goal when the OHL announced the new policy for required vaccination of fans.

 

[OMG67]

Ontario's top doctor willing to consider lifting capacity limits in venues with mandatory vaccination requirements

Based on what I am hearing inside hospital administration, I don’t think this is going to age well.

I don’t trust that vaccinated people are less likely enough to become infected. As we continue to put vaccinated people in closer proximity, the higher the rates of infection will spread. As the vaccine wanes in its effectiveness, more vaccinated people will be symptomatic.

IMO, I feel like the vaccine protects you from serious illness so I could give a rats ass about infections. All O care about is hospitalizations and deaths. But, will the Province take the same stance when we are back over 1500 new cases for day in December?

Somehow I think the first thing to be “blamed” will be events like sports arena based games. They’ll likely walk back that allowance.

 

[rangersblues]

IMO, I feel like the vaccine protects you from serious illness so I could give a rats ass about infections. All O care about is hospitalizations and deaths. But, will the Province take the same stance when we are back over 1500 new cases for day in December?

Let's hope this is the case that statistics for hospitalizations, ICU capacity, and deaths become the prevailing factors. So far the vaccine has been effective and I firmly believe boosters will be available when needed. We still need to implement vaccine passports to boost the vaccination rate. You have the right to not get vaccinated but then you give up many other things. Much like children, vaccination and public schools.

 

[OMG67]

Let's hope this is the case that statistics for hospitalizations, ICU capacity, and deaths become the prevailing factors. So far the vaccine has been effective and I firmly believe boosters will be available when needed. We still need to implement vaccine passports to boost the vaccination rate. You have the right to not get vaccinated but then you give up many other things. Much like children, vaccination and public schools.

First, that creates a complete second class of citizen. That’s not a country I want to live in.

Second, kids are not required to be vaccinated to attend school. Those with parents that are philosophically opposed can attend an education seminar. If after that seminar they are still philosophically opposed, they sign a declaration and their kids are exempt from vaccinations.

Im not trying to open a vaccine discussion in general. I just wanted to clarify the actual immunization policy related to kids attending school.

The main point is once a Government creates a policy, the expiry date for that policy seems to always be extended until it is permanent. Then they expand the policy to include other things because there infrastructure is already in place. So, it is much more likely that a vaccine passport that is supposed to last about a year, will NEVER go away and will be expanded to add other non-vaccine related policies as opposed to it being a 12-24 month interim measure.

So remember, if you support the implementation of a vaccine passport, you are creating two classes of citizen and likely agreeing to have an additional form of Government intrusion for the rest of your life that will continue to expand as they see fit.

IMO, let’s just rely on the validity of the vaccines and be happy that 85-90% of our population is vaccinated which will go a long way towards resolving any issues on its own. Boosters will continue and most likely be added to the flu shot annually. This should suffice, especially when you consider the extremely high percentage of vaccine acceptance compared to the rest of the World. Canada is in a great place. Let’s celebrate that instead of demonizing the “other 15%.”

 

[OHLTG]

Let's hope this is the case that statistics for hospitalizations, ICU capacity, and deaths become the prevailing factors. So far the vaccine has been effective and I firmly believe boosters will be available when needed. We still need to implement vaccine passports to boost the vaccination rate. You have the right to not get vaccinated but then you give up many other things. Much like children, vaccination and public schools.

We're going to get to the point where Covid cases surpassed by hospital rates. For instance - if you have 500 covid cases, but only 50 in the hospital province wide, there's no reason to open it up. Covid is still going around but the effects are minimal at best.

 

[Otto]

Please, there are already multiple classes of citizens.

 

[OMG67]

We're going to get to the point where Covid cases surpassed by hospital rates. For instance - if you have 500 covid cases, but only 50 in the hospital province wide, there's no reason to open it up. Covid is still going around but the effects are minimal at best.

If I had to guess, depending on the number of daily tests performed, we will see a greater number of infections (daily case counts) this winter because of the ridiculous level of spread for the Delta variant. This thing spreads like crazy. About 3 times the rate of the original variant. But, because of our vaccination levels, we won’t see a proportional level of hospitalizations compared to last winter.

The question is whether the population is prepared to separate daily case counts from hospitalizations or not. I don’t think they understand the difference. Therefore, this is going to continue to be a political response. I just can’t see 3000 cases per day with full arenas regardless of the low numbers of people in hospitals and/or dying.

Covid is here to stay. It’s not going anywhere. It comes down to how well the world does at limiting the spread and ability for highly infectious mutations. It will take a good five years to get it relatively under control at true global level.

This is why I say we need to trust the vaccines and make that message very clear. Get people in the right mindset.

 

[rangersblues]

First, that creates a complete second class of citizen. That’s not a country I want to live in.

Second, kids are not required to be vaccinated to attend school. Those with parents that are philosophically opposed can attend an education seminar. If after that seminar they are still philosophically opposed, they sign a declaration and their kids are exempt from vaccinations.

Im not trying to open a vaccine discussion in general. I just wanted to clarify the actual immunization policy related to kids attending school.

The main point is once a Government creates a policy, the expiry date for that policy seems to always be extended until it is permanent. Then they expand the policy to include other things because there infrastructure is already in place. So, it is much more likely that a vaccine passport that is supposed to last about a year, will NEVER go away and will be expanded to add other non-vaccine related policies as opposed to it being a 12-24 month interim measure.

So remember, if you support the implementation of a vaccine passport, you are creating two classes of citizen and likely agreeing to have an additional form of Government intrusion for the rest of your life that will continue to expand as they see fit.

IMO, let’s just rely on the validity of the vaccines and be happy that 85-90% of our population is vaccinated which will go a long way towards resolving any issues on its own. Boosters will continue and most likely be added to the flu shot annually. This should suffice, especially when you consider the extremely high percentage of vaccine acceptance compared to the rest of the World. Canada is in a great place. Let’s celebrate that instead of demonizing the “other 15%.”

If we can use the vaccine policy for kids attending school, there's no reason we can't use it during a pandemic for the general public.

The vaccine passport policy would be in place until the pandemic is declared over. The more tools that are used and followed, including vaccine passports, the sooner that will be.

 

[OMG67]

If we can use the vaccine policy for kids attending school, there's no reason we can't use it during a pandemic for the general public.

The vaccine passport policy would be in place until the pandemic is declared over. The more tools that are used and followed, including vaccine passports, the sooner that will be.

I will repeat. The vaccine policy for school has three exemptions:

1 - Medical
2 - Religious
3 - Philosophical

To qualify for exemption under 2 and 3, you have to attend an education seminar and sign a form and your kids are exempt from vaccination.

So, if you are saying thet we should do a vaccine passport and apply same rules as kids for school, anyone not wanting to be vaccinated would attend an education seminar, obtain their exemption and be granted their vaccine passport.

CLEARLY that isn’t worth while.

So unless the Province updates their immunization requirements and makes Covid vaccine mandatory while keeping the other vaccines optional, kids technically can go to school as is. Under your example, so could any adult gain exemption.

The Government is waiting to see what the hospitalization situation will be prior to making a decision in this regard. They feel that 85+% fully vaccinated is adequate to control it so they aren’t wanting to commit to a boondoggle program that would take forever to set up, implement and educate the public on. Any other place that has implemented it has screwed it up. Problems all around it.

If they do it half baked, they will get a half baked program treated as a half baked program.

To do it right, they’d need to keep a live database with a scannable card that identifies your vaccination record in the database and a reader that connect to the database. Good luck with that.

Alternatively, they could supply cards but with the boosters being required, the cards would be obsolete in short order or have an expiry date within a certain date from their previous shot. Then they’d have to redistribute replacement cards over and over as the boosters are required.

Both of these would be a silly cost.

No chance the Government does either of these until they know for sure that the vaccine waning causes break through cases to a high enough level that affects hospital capacity.

 

[Otto]

Tell me which religion has no vaccines as part of their doctrine....

 

[OMG67]

Tell me which religion has no vaccines as part of their doctrine....

Zero. But many have leeway where they encourage their congregations to use their best judgement utilizing their faith in their specific God.

That said, it doesn’t matter if three people claim religion or 3 million. The process to claim Religious exemption is the same as philosophical. Take an education seminar and sign a form and get the exemption. Same course, same form, same overall process.

It really is inconsequential as to the reason people choose to not vaccinate their children in Ontario. There is a process for them to get their way and obtain the exemption. Thats all that concerns the correlation between utilizing the same regulations for school kids as adults with respect to regulations. Utilizing the school kids immunization policy is not realistic for adults if the goal is to either encourage more vaccinations or keep unvaccinated out of “safe zones.”


The reality is, a vaccine passport, if done right, will be a cluster F of wasted $$$ with relatively little benefit. The Government has no will to go through that process and that process will take many months to implement properly. And we all know the Government usually fails with these new programs more so than gets it right from the start.

 

[Otto]

Zero. But many have leeway where they encourage their congregations to use their best judgement utilizing their faith in their specific God.

That said, it doesn’t matter if three people claim religion or 3 million. The process to claim Religious exemption is the same as philosophical. Take an education seminar and sign a form and get the exemption. Same course, same form, same overall process.

It really is inconsequential as to the reason people choose to not vaccinate their children in Ontario. There is a process for them to get their way and obtain the exemption. Thats all that concerns the correlation between utilizing the same regulations for school kids as adults with respect to regulations. Utilizing the school kids immunization policy is not realistic for adults if the goal is to either encourage more vaccinations or keep unvaccinated out of “safe zones.”

Unless this happens Don’t allow vaccine exemptions because of religious or philosophical objections, Ontario urged | The Star

The reality is, a vaccine passport, if done right, will be a cluster F of wasted $$$ with relatively little benefit. The Government has no will to go through that process and that process will take many months to implement properly. And we all know the Government usually fails with these new programs more so than gets it right from the start.

B.C. sees big jump in vaccination bookings after announcing COVID-19 vaccine passport | CBC News

 

[OMG67]

Unless this happens Don’t allow vaccine exemptions because of religious or philosophical objections, Ontario urged | The Star





B.C. sees big jump in vaccination bookings after announcing COVID-19 vaccine passport | CBC News

Yes and Yes.

I agree with both. If you are going to introduce a Vaccine Passport, you can’t have exemptions OF ANY KIND INCLUDING AGE AND MEDICAL REASONS. Life isn’t fair. Deal with it. If you allow people with medical exemptions to gain access to places that require the vaccine passport, it is likely they are at horrible risk (otherwise why have a passport?). Same goes for kids and the ones that live in the their household. Kids are little petri dishes. If the logic states that unvaccinated people are at serious risk of spreading, they CANNOT be allowed access to places that require vaccine passports and then spread it. THE END. Your kid can’t be vaccinated because of their age? Oh well. No OHL hockey games for your kid. Exemptions derail the entire point of a passport. Letting 300 (under-12) of 1000 people in an OHL rink in to the game is stupid IF the reason for the passport is to reduce risk and reduce spread.

If you introduce a Vaccine passport, the “LAZY PEOPLE” will then get off their ass and get vaccinated. Those that are philosophically opposed will remain stubborn for the time being. Some may change their mind but Ontario has already seen upwards of 85% acceptance. I don’t see those numbers dramatically increasing as a result of a vaccine passport. Maybe 1-3%?

The reality is, a Vaccine Passport doesn’t really work to “protect” people. If you are vaccinated, you can get infected and spread it. The numbers are lower than unvaccinated but the reality is Covid isn’t going away for many years, if ever. People will learn that getting vaccinated keeps you at a lower risk of serious illness (and almost zero chance of death). Those that hold out for philosophical reasons will likely get infected (especially with the spread of the Delta which is pretty easily spread with an Rx of around 6.0) and about 5% of them will require significant medical assistance and about 15% will probably develop “long Covid” where they struggle with symptoms for weeks or months.

All I can say is I am not in favour of a vaccine passport because to do it right (so it would be effective), it would take many months to implement properly and the odds of the government doing it effectively and efficiently is pretty much zero because they F most everything up. If the point of a Vaccine Passport is to half ass it to get a few more percent of people vaccinated and the goal isn’t to stop the spread, then so be it. That makes some sense but otherwise, meh. Ontario has done a tremendous job with vaccine acceptance. We should be fine without any additional measures IMO. Those that are unvaccinated will face the consequences of not being vaccinated and some will die. I have ZERO sympathy or care, regardless of their reason (medical or otherwise).

People pollute their bodies on a daily basis (myself included). I have no idea why anyone would call the vaccine a poison, meanwhile they stuff their faces with junk food, smoke cigarettes, drink booze and coffee etc etc etc. To me it is silly BUT, I also believe people have a right to be stubborn and have a right to manage their personal risk in all areas. If their personal risk management means no vaccine then so be it. Stopping those people from access to public places where they’d normally be allowed access is egregious to me. It creates a second class citizen. I don’t believe people should be treated differently and have their freedom of movement and access restricted because of their belief system, regardless of whether I agree with their reasons or not.

EDIT: I do agree that Hospital, LTC, Nursing Home and Retirement Facility Workers and any contractors working in those places should be required to vaccinate. PERIOD. Same goes for Teachers/Professors, Police, Fire and Paramedical. I’m probably missing a few groups. But this is a professional courtesy on behalf of those that work FOR the public in a Medical or Safety capacity.

Any of those workers that are Medically exempt should be given other tasks where they are not on site or receive paid leave (Government assistance) if those tasks do not exist. Keep it consistent while also somewhat compassionate for those with medical issues.

 

[Otto]

You're not protecting people from covid. you're protecting them from severe consequences from covid.

 

[OMG67]

You're not protecting people from covid. you're protecting them from severe consequences from covid.

What does that mean in your eyes? The reason why I ask is there is a big difference between what some people think a vaccine passport means. How do you see this?

And should there be ANY exemptions? If so, what should they be and why?

I don’t really care what your answer is. I’m just pointing out that if you ask 100 people, you will get a lot of wildly different answers. And these are mostly people that apparently “agree.”

 

[OHLTG]

Let me just add - no matter which way the Govt leans when this is all done (or even DURING the process), let's not go after the employees who are enforcing the rules. Do I think something needs to be done, once and for all? Yes. Do I think we're going to get to a breaking point rather quickly? Yes. Do I think Ontario residents are idiotic enough to yell at the wrong people and refuse to apologize? Yes.

 

[FiveHoleo]

No exemptions on vaccination. It's matter of public health and it trumps your right to be a tool whether its because god told you to be a tool or because your political idols told you to be a tool. Nobody cares, they don't need to get sick and die or make their families sick and die because you want to watch a hockey game and be a tool at the same time. No hockey for you. You are welcome to be a tool in the privacy of your own home, have at it!

 

[OMG67]

Let me just add - no matter which way the Govt leans when this is all done (or even DURING the process), let's not go after the employees who are enforcing the rules. Do I think something needs to be done, once and for all? Yes. Do I think we're going to get to a breaking point rather quickly? Yes. Do I think Ontario residents are idiotic enough to yell at the wrong people and refuse to apologize? Yes.

Agreed 100%.

This is my main point. There is a difference between a business enforcing the rules and making them up themselves. Right now, businesses Are faced with a situation where they feel they need to make them up themselves. Whenever that happens, they leave themselves wide open for pushback, people lashing out and potential legal risks. It is not fair for businesses.

This is why I started posting in this thread. I don’t think it is wise for the Government to let businesses operate outside their current assessment of the COVID risk. There should be a standard for businesses to follow. This includes minimum requirements to operate as well as a outlining exactly what the businesses can request of their customers to gain access. If a business does not feel comfortable operating inside the parameters set put by the Government, they can close up shop, take their ball, and go home.