Whats happening? Camps open in a few weeks.

[Otto]

I've seen the comparisons almost daily on social media. It's somewhere between weird and almost funny. People believe everything they read, spread the misinformation, and refuse to back down from a controversial take even when facts are in front of their face. It's nothing new. This is one reason I'm looking forward to hockey and a Govt decision; society needs to move on. If those who are nervous want to join us, Google and let's go...

I consider the source. In this case its been wrong from day 1 on everything

 

[OHLTG]

I consider the source. In this case its been wrong from day 1 on everything

In general, I've learned to ignore a lot of the noise. It's much easier, mentally. I've gotten both shots; bring on the next steps.

 

[OMG67]

A Vaccine Passport is nothing more than Segregation and an attempt at Humiliation. Many articles have cited the fact it is being used as a tool to “motivate” people to be vaccinated. Take away their freedoms, create a second class citizen and maybe they will start to capitulate. Disgusting. People have a right to decide what they put in their bodies. This is why a the Vaccine will never be Mandatory.

What we are seeing now is “repercussions” for not capitulating. Now that the powers that be see the vast majority of people are in favour of this type of approach, you best be ready for more of it.

The Vaccine Passport will be expanded to include other provisional measures as the Government sees fit. It is actually sort of ironic that the vast majority of people don’t trust the Government and don’t trust politicians to do what is right for the people and that they agree they mostly do what is in their own best interests for political survival. Yet, we allow the Government to create a situation where Segregation is now not only acceptable but applauded. It’s almost laughable.

 

[Otto]

Costco, Gyms, and the golf course behind my house have already created second class citizens...

 

[Otto]

 

[OMG67]

Costco, Gyms, and the golf course behind my house have already created second class citizens...

I don’t understand what that means? Everyone is eligible to purchase Memberships for each of those businesses. Are you suggesting that places with an Entry Fee is creating a second class?

If an OHL Team reserves their tickets only for season Ticket Holders this season, is the OHL creating a second class?

Unvaccinated people with Memberships to non-essential businesses will be barred entry. That includes STH for OHL teams, Gym Members and potentially Golfers depending on how they end up defining the requirements (indoor vs outdoor).

Unvaccinated (over 12) will no longer have access to in class education. They won’t have access to any forms of indoor entertainment. They won’t have access to indoor sports facilities of any kind.

At least they can hang out at Costco (if they have a first class identity card)….

 

[Otto]

I don’t understand what that means? Everyone is eligible to purchase Memberships for each of those businesses. Are you suggesting that places with an Entry Fee is creating a second class?

If an OHL Team reserves their tickets only for season Ticket Holders this season, is the OHL creating a second class?

Unvaccinated people with Memberships to non-essential businesses will be barred entry. That includes STH for OHL teams, Gym Members and potentially Golfers depending on how they end up defining the requirements (indoor vs outdoor).

Unvaccinated (over 12) will no longer have access to in class education. They won’t have access to any forms of indoor entertainment. They won’t have access to indoor sports facilities of any kind.

At least they can hang out at Costco (if they have a first class identity card)….

if you don't care what I have to say then why are you quoting me?

 

[OMG67]

if you don't care what I have to say then why are you quoting me?

I didn’t care what your answer was because it was inconsequential to the point I was making. You may want to reread that quote.

To be clear, I do care what you have to say. I care about what everyone has to say. I weigh the points they make and how they craft their argument. That is how discussion happens. Just because I disagree with you and you disagree with me, it doesn’t mean I don’t care what you have to say.

There are too many people out there these days that simply only want to hear their own opinion echoed back at them and if they don’t then the person is clearly stupid.

I make these arguments to spark discussion and I challenge people in an effort to open up their minds.

Since this Pandemic started, I have kept an open mind and as data rolled in and people smarter than me have made solid arguments and presented the data in ways that make sense, I have changed my mind and have adjusted with the data. This is no different than many of the scientists out there advising on policy. In some cases, you’ve made some arguments that had an effect on me changing my stance. I am open to people changing my mind.

The biggest problem with the acceptance of Vaccine Passports is that because the overwhelming majority of people have been fully vaccinated, they don’t think it affects themselves so they are willing to sacrifice those that choose not to vaccinate in an effort to get access to things they haven’t gotten access to since the start of the Pandemic. To me, that is not a motivator. I want to return to normal but if return to normal is me sacrificing what I consider the rights of others to choose not to be vaccinated then I choose continued restrictions. I don’t leave people on the battlefield because it is inconvenient for me to support their choice.

What is laughable to me is those that say the Vaccine is not mandatory but from NOW until probably EVER, they will be barred from doing anything of meaning that makes life worth living. And, somehow that is considered NOT MANDATORY?

 

[Otto]

I don’t really care what your answer is.

I didn’t care what your answer was because it was inconsequential to the point I was making. You may want to reread that quote.

But yet,, I didn't answer, so you had already made up your mind

What is laughable to me is those that say the Vaccine is not mandatory but from NOW until probably EVER, they will be barred from doing anything of meaning that makes life worth living. And, somehow that is considered NOT MANDATORY?

Life isn’t fair. Deal with it.

 

[OHLTG]

I don't know about anyone else, but if I was on the fence about vaccinations and the Govt told me "we're coming out with vaccine passports", I'm looking up every piece of credible information I can to see what exactly the vaccines are all about. The more I know, the more my mind is at ease, and the more willing I am to proceed. Honestly, I don't know what the Govt is supposed to do. They had the plan in place (80%/75% or something) and then Delta came in and screwed it all up. There's not a single answer that's going to please everyone, whether that's lockdown, vaccine passports, status quo, or completely open up. So, you do what's good for the majority and, right now, that's proof of vaccination to get into things.

 

[Otto]

What I find funny is the "NO LOCKDOWNS, NO MASKS, MY FREEDUM" Yahoos are the same ones who are screaming "NO VACCINASHUN" ... What do they think is going to happen? Do they think that everything is just going to magically open back up again with no restrictions? They tried that in Alberta.. hows that working out?

 

[shot caller]

What I find funny is the "NO LOCKDOWNS, NO MASKS, MY FREEDUM" Yahoos are the same ones who are screaming "NO VACCINASHUN" ... What do they think is going to happen? Do they think that everything is just going to magically open back up again with no restrictions? They tried that in Alberta.. hows that working out?

To me and my freedoms, these people pose a threat. If they want to spout off, let them.
Like Napoleon said… ‘Never interfere with an enemy while he’s in the process of destroying himself.’

 

[OMG67]

But yet,, I didn't answer, so you had already made up your mind

It was a rhetorical question. I didn’t think I needed to explain it to you.

The point of that stance was that there is overwhelming support for Vaccine Passports but there is no consensus on what that actually means. So, it doesn’t matter what your answer is because regardless of your answer, other people that agree with you that there should be a Vaccine Passport, wildly disagree with you on how it is to be implemented and for what purpose.

This is why when people talk about a “concept” it is far too incomplete for people to provide opinion. As of right now, the Passport is “suggested” as a means to access non-essential services for those that are vaccinated. It may mean a lot of other things that we aren’t aware of and it may continue to morph into areas that are convenient for the Government to introduce. It is death by a thousand paper cuts. Some would refer to it as the slow demise of Democracy. Handing over little pieces of freedom to the Government until there really isn’t much left to hand over.

 

[HockeyPops]

I am a little more concerned about the immediate threat that the unvaccinated pose to our health care capacity than I am of government overreach. Let's talk about preventing 1000 paper cuts when we are on cut 50, not cut 0.

 

[HockeyPops]

A CDC study this week found that those who are unvaccinated have five times the rate of getting Covid-19 than the vaccinated (and a 29-times higher likelihood of being hospitalized or dying from coronavirus).

 

[OMG67]

I am a little more concerned about the immediate threat that the unvaccinated pose to our health care capacity than I am of government overreach. Let's talk about preventing 1000 paper cuts when we are on cut 50, not cut 0.

If the Vaccine works to keep people out of the hospital then 85% of our population over 12 won’t be in hospital. In addition, it is extremely rare kids end up in hospital so we can probably circle that group as well. We can also circle the 90+% of the people over 60 that are vaccinated that took up the vast majority of the hospital beds last winter and the previous spring.

Younger people in the 18 to 29 age group lag behind the rest of the older age groups with respect to vaccine hesitancy. Although that age group can be infected and get sick, it is also the age group with the lowest chance of ending up in a hospital. Cases, Data, and Surveillance . This would suggest that even though there is still some vaccine hesitancy in Canada (amongst the lowest levels in the entire WORLD), it is mostly amongst the younger people that are the least likely age group to be hospitalized (18 to 29).

This is another good website that tracks current levels of vaccination across the World and can be sorted by Country.
covidvax.live: Live COVID-19 Vaccination Tracker - See vaccinations in real time!
Canada had a late start vaccinating their citizens. But, we are now 14th in the World in Vaccinations per 100 of the Population with 139.37 Vaccinations per 100 (53mil doses as of this writing). We are two days away from reaching 70% of the population fully vaccinated. That is based on our ENTIRE population, not just over-12. For reference, the USA is 111 days away from 70% fully vaccinated at their current rate.

We can dance in circles all day long. People will interpret data differently. That is a given. And, admittedly, there is more data required like number of available hospital beds (capacity) etc that need to be taken into account. The ability to transfer elderly patients to LTC and LTC ability to accept patients. Both of those issues are woefully inadequate and need to be addressed like NOW. THIS is where our focus needs to be and yet the Pandemic is 18 months old and we have done nothing of any significant consequence to repair it. Not many people look at these issues and yet this is what the problem is. Not enough hospital beds per Capital and lagging LTC facility beds available. Coronavirus is about to reveal how fragile our health system is

As long as we are focused on the us vs them scenario of vaccinated vs unvaccinated, the easier it is for the Wizard of Oz to hide behind the curtain. A Vaccine Passport is another distractor for the real problems this Province and country are facing. Look at it this way, the Government can either invest more $$$ expanding our Health Care System to satisfy the needs of our aging population or it can start the ball rolling on placing restrictions ont he population and force them into restrictions where the population exists to save the Health Care System instead of the Health Care System existing to save the Population.

Based on how politics works, our increased levels of debt and the ever over-reaching arms of the Government, the Vaccine Passport is just a start. Based not he statistics I provided, we really don’t need a Vaccine Passport UNLESS we just accept that our Health Care System capacity is woefully inadequate and we have zero willingness to do anything about it.

 

[HockeyPops]

We tax cigarettes and alcohol and other optional things that increase healthcare costs substantially. I would be very supportive of implementing a tax on the unvaccinated to help pay for an expansion of our health care capacity.

 

[OMG67]

We tax cigarettes and alcohol and other optional things that increase healthcare costs substantially. I would be very supportive of implementing a tax on the unvaccinated to help pay for an expansion of our health care capacity.

I could potentially get behind that depending on how we collect the tax. At first thought, that isn’t a bad idea. Just dunno how we would implement it. Maybe some sort of user fee for Hospital Care like the Hotels for the unvaccinated travellers?

This would be a compromise where unvaccinated people have rights and accesses in the same manner as vaccinated people but they face the economic costs associated to their choices in some manner.

I could get behind something like this.

 

[imarriedawitch]

Many businesses can deny entry at any time without reason based solely on private property legislation. With Covid and the unvaccinated we know the reason.

 

[OMG67]

Many businesses can deny entry at any time without reason based solely on private property legislation. With Covid and the unvaccinated we know the reason.

That’s not true. There needs to be a demonstrable reason that can hold up in a court of law.

The only reason why a business “could” deny service to someone unvaccinated is because, in their view, unvaccinated people pose a serious risk to their customers and staff. In this case, that CANNOT be true because Government Policy has allowed the unvaccinated entry in businesses provided masking and social distancing is in effect (which is mandatory for all businesses regardless).

Businesses can enforce arbitrary standards like customer attire or they can bar entry to those that are intoxicated or acting rudely or have poor behaviour.

Businesses have to operate within the law and they cannot break the law by barring entry to the average citizen “without any reason.” The reason needs to be demonstrably justified and has to be able to stand up in a court of law (for that jurisdiction).

If the Government creates a Vaccine Passport, they are essentially saying it is not safe for unvaccinated people to be in non-essential businesses. But, they are also saying it is safe for them to be in essential businesses. I’m not sure how that contradiction works but I am sure the Government knows best. If you don’t believe me, just ask them. They’ll tell you.

 

[imarriedawitch]

That’s not true. There needs to be a demonstrable reason that can hold up in a court of law.

The only reason why a business “could” deny service to someone unvaccinated is because, in their view, unvaccinated people pose a serious risk to their customers and staff. In this case, that CANNOT be true because Government Policy has allowed the unvaccinated entry in businesses provided masking and social distancing is in effect (which is mandatory for all businesses regardless).

Businesses can enforce arbitrary standards like customer attire or they can bar entry to those that are intoxicated or acting rudely or have poor behaviour.

Businesses have to operate within the law and they cannot break the law by barring entry to the average citizen “without any reason.” The reason needs to be demonstrably justified and has to be able to stand up in a court of law (for that jurisdiction).

If the Government creates a Vaccine Passport, they are essentially saying it is not safe for unvaccinated people to be in non-essential businesses. But, they are also saying it is safe for them to be in essential businesses. I’m not sure how that contradiction works but I am sure the Government knows best. If you don’t believe me, just ask them. They’ll tell you.

A southwestern Ontario harness track essentially banned three drivers by invoking private property rights. The three in question were simply told they were no longer welcome on the premises. Track management knew that if they made an accusation that they would have the burden of proof and would be in the courts for years. No longer welcome was all they needed on private property.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

We tax cigarettes and alcohol and other optional things that increase healthcare costs substantially. I would be very supportive of implementing a tax on the unvaccinated to help pay for an expansion of our health care capacity.

Do we also tax the obese who are a far bigger strain on healthcare? Where does it stop?

 

[OMG67]

Do we also tax the obese who are a far bigger strain on healthcare? Where does it stop?

Technically, products that are not considered grocery are not sales tax exempt. Soda Pop and Candy Bars are examples of items not exempt from tax. So, in a way, many products that contribute the the Obesity Epidemic are taxed.

That said, I agree with you. Cigarettes cause upwards of 45,000 deaths per year and have direct Health Care costs topping $16.2BIL (2012) every year. Those are direct costs and do not include the indirect costs. Smoking is regulated and heavily taxed but is legal.

If we extend that out to “Substance Use,” the total costs (2017) are estimated to be $46BIL and 75,900 lives. That would include Alcohol and Illegal Drugs. Those costs extend further than Health Care.

We have done relatively little over the last twenty years to eliminate smoking. We’ve been pretty consistent holding at between 15-20% of the population smoking. Vaping has become very popular with many identified Health Issues attached. That is another thing that will need to be studied closely going forward.

But, I don’t really want to get deep into WHAT-ABOUTisms. Besides, smoking and drinking have no effect on what happens in the OHL this season.

 

[EON]

This thread started as a discussion on what's going on with OHL training camps and has predictably descended into bickering over covid and politics. If you want to discuss these topics hfboards has a dedicated forum for it here: COVID 19 - The Coronavirus Outbreak Closed.