What was the greatest tournament win by a men's team other than Canada?

[Pushkin]

The difference is Canada is now the greatest hockey nation and even when they were behind the USSR they could play well in Europe in some Worlds and especially World Juniors. Meanwhile USA Hockey apart from the world junior gold 2004 has always been a joke in official tournaments not held in North America or in CanadaCups when The USSR existed and came to win...

 

[Pushkin]

I'd say since the collapse of USSR if you consider Olympics Worlds and U20 (official compettions) Canada is clearly #1 followed much further by Czech-Sweden-Russia Usa-Finland...

 

[doakacola*]

Didn't the US guys whine a lot and trashed everything when not on home soil in Nagano and finished 8th in Torino? Yes that's it Americans feeling at home in America how surprising is that and feeling cheated and finishing 8th in Europe-Asia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We beat the USSR with a NCAA college ALL-Star team in 1980, WHEN IT MATTERED, lost by 1 goal in 1984, with about 25% of the team being junior eligible.

Incidentally I watched that game in 1981, unfortunately the US made the mistake of letting a washed up Tony Esposito play goal in 1981 and he let in a horrible, horrible goal that completely changed the complexion of the game. The US was more than holding its own at that point. That US team was outplayed more by Canada than the USSR in 1981. Incidentally, the US beat both Sweden and Czech in 1981, so your dismissive attitude about the US is a joke.

 

[Pushkin]

Canada 2 Olympics Gold+ 5 Worlds Gold + 10 U20 Gold...

Czech 1 Olympic Gold + 5 Worlds Gold + 2U20 Gold
Sweden 2 Olympic Gold + 3 Worlds Gold + 2U20 Silver...
Russia 1 Olympic Silver+ 3 Worlds Gold + 4 U20 Golds(many silver)

USA 2 Olympic Silver + 0 Worlds + 2U20 Golds
Finland 1 Olympic Silver + 1Worlds + 1U20 gold

 

[doakacola*]

I'd say since the collapse of USSR if you consider Olympics Worlds and U20 (official compettions) Canada is clearly #1 followed much further by Czech-Sweden-Russia Usa-Finland...

Haha, how about 1996 when the US ran the Russians off the ice in NY and soundly beat them in Canada in the PO round, remember that Pushkin? In that game Russia actually had a home ice advantage as Canadians were clearly rooting for Russia. Whom do you think Canadians thought was better, Russia or the USA?

Right now best on best if you played a seven game series, the US would clearly be the favorite over Russia, not even debatable.

 

[Pushkin]

That was mainly the attitude of the Soviets guys-coaches back then. The rivals= Canada and Czechs. That was what cost in big part the gold in 1980...

 

[Peter25]

The US was more than holding its own at that point. That US team was outplayed more by Canada than the USSR in 1981. Incidentally, the US beat both Sweden and Czech in 1981, so your dismissive attitude about the US is a joke.

Well, to be fair the USSR was pretty dismal in the round robin of the 1981 Canada Cup. They lost to Canada 3-7, tied the Czechs 1-1 and were unimpressive agaisnt the US and Finland (despite winning the game 6-1). Their only good showing in the round robin was against Sweden.

In the semifinal the USSR beat the Czechs 4-1, but the showing was again uninspired and not to the usual Soviet standards of those times.

One reason for this could be that there was a bit of a rebellion against Tikhonov in 1981. Many players wanted him out of the national team. A story goes that the captain Valeri Vasilyev talked the players to play hard in the final. Winning the tournament for the USSR was more important than feuding with Tikhonov.

 

[Pushkin]

NHLPA NorthAmericaMania Cup is completely IRRELEVANT. 0% Credibility or significance whatsoever.

I thought the US had a great team by the mid-90's but then when it mattered in Nagano you were just as bad as Russia was with a great team in 2010...

I'd say right now a best of seven Russia-USA would go down to the 7th game and the team winning would depend on where the game is NY or Moscow?

 

[New User Name]

NHLPA NorthAmericaMania Cup is completely IRRELEVANT. 0% Credibility or significance whatsoever.

I thought the US had a great team by the mid-90's but then when it mattered in Nagano you were just as bad as Russia was with a great team in 2010...

I'd say right now a best of seven Russia-USA would go down to the 7th game and the team winning would depend on where the game is NY or Moscow?

I'd give a slight edge to the US over Russia and a slight edge to Canada over the US.

 

[doakacola*]

Well, to be fair the USSR was pretty dismal in the round robin of the 1981 Canada Cup. They lost to Canada 3-7, tied the Czechs 1-1 and were unimpressive agaisnt the US and Finland (despite winning the game 6-1). Their only good showing in the round robin was against Sweden.

In the semifinal the USSR beat the Czechs 4-1, but the showing was again uninspired and not to the usual Soviet standards of those times.

One reason for this could be that there was a bit of a rebellion against Tikhonov in 1981. Many players wanted him out of the national team. A story goes that the captain Valeri Vasilyev talked the players to play hard in the final. Winning the tournament for the USSR was more important than feuding with Tikhonov.

IMO the 1981 US Canada Cup Team confirmed the US was an emerging legit power and Lake Placid wasn't a fluke. They beat Sweden & Czech and held their own against Russia in their game. The only team to dominate them was Canada, Russia didn't dominate them despite the score. In fact if you compared the US-USSR '81 CC to the USA-Canada 2011 WJ game they were night and day, but the scores were the same.

 

[Pushkin]

So getting back to the thread I'd say USSR in 1972 having Canada for the pin before they injured Kharlamov. That was the best win by a team ever starting with the 7-3 in Montreal!!!

 

[jekoh]

Czech 1 Olympic Gold + 5 Worlds Gold + 2U20 Gold

Czechia has 6 world golds.

U20 does not matter.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Why do Soviet fans always give the impression that "dirty tricks" were what Canada used exclusively in international competition, and that refs purposely turned a blind eye?

Uhh, this was an era that was preceded by the Big Bad Bruins and the Broad Street Bullies. Clearly, the officiating standard was much different in NA vs. Europe regarding stickwork and rough play, unless someone wants to make the case that there were political reasons for the refs allowing the Bruins and Flyers tenderize opponents on their way to Cups.

Seems like a vineyard's worth of sour grapes to me.

 

[Pushkin]

I agree USA 80's beginning was getting good. Not denying that.

 

[Macman]

Sure the level of hockey collapsed after 1991, no one has tried to deny this.

I'll try. While I don't doubt the resources aren't the same as they were under the communist system, the main reason for Russia's lack of success internationally over the last two decades is it's now in the same boat as everyone else and most of its officials and fans are in denial.

The massive advantages they had heading into international play in the past -- the discriminatory IIHF ban against North American pros, the Red Army hothouse system that put almost all of Russia's top players on one team to develop together for years, and not having to throw together ill-prepared teams at the last minute -- no longer exist.

If that's what you mean by collapse, I guess I agree with you. Otherwise, no.

The fact that a bunch of U.S. university players were forced to go up against the Soviets in 1980 says everything that needs to said about the undeniable and unfair advantage Russians and others had over North American teams for decades.

The Russian hockey system was geared toward winning internationally and everything was poured into that to the exclusion of all else. Now that's no longer possible and you're seeng the result. The myth of Soviet supremacy was built on an ice surface far more tilted than anything you claim with the Canada Cup.

 

[doakacola*]

I'd give a slight edge to the US over Russia and a slight edge to Canada over the US.

Everyone is overrating Russia. Their team defense doesn't cut it as its a huge advantage US. You think the fact that the US beat Canada and took them to OT while Canada completely ran Russia out of the building was a fluke? I'll tell you right now, Russia has severe team D issues that the US would be able to exploit as they have enough fire power up front (Parise, Kesler, Kane, Ryan, Stastny, Malone, Kessel) to fill the net, not to mention the force big Buff has now become. Unfortunatley for Russia, this isn't basketball, team D must be played and the USA has it in spades over Russia.

 

[Pushkin]

Canada vs. USSR= During ColdWar and the ColdWar of hockey...

So if the Canadians could injured on purpose the best player of the Soviets in 1972 in MOSCOW and effectively steal the series you don't think they could almost fix the games in Canada with their fans referees and everything?

Kharlamov 1972: Well documented all the people involved confirmed it, even the criminal admitted it. " Well Bob this guy is killing us he's unstoppable go injure him"=The Lesson of 1972.

1972= Team USSR best team ever.

 

[AustonWassup]

The difference is Canada is now the greatest hockey nation and even when they were behind the USSR they could play well in Europe in some Worlds and especially World Juniors. Meanwhile USA Hockey apart from the world junior gold 2004 has always been a joke in official tournaments not held in North America or in CanadaCups when The USSR existed and came to win...

No, the difference now is since the NHL starting luring Russian players Russia no longer has the advantage of playing together all year round.

The Russian team at the 2010 Olympics was extremely talented but they played disjointed like most of the other teams comprised of NHL players and never recovered.

 

[doakacola*]

I agree USA 80's beginning was getting good. Not denying that.

People seem to forget that the US was missing a couple of important pieces in Booth and Martin last year and unfortunatley Dustin Buff's emergence as one of the games most dominant players came a year to late. Would have loved to see those three guys
in the line-up in Vancouver, along of course with Stamkos on TC. I'd take that tradeoff, Booth, Martin and Buff for Stamkos.

 

[Jussi]

It's hilarious calming European ref would have been better than NHL refs when e.g. Finland were screwed several times by Eastern European refs in international tournaments in the 80's and before.

Not to mention mentioning how the Russian league lasted from September to April while conveniently forgetting the fact that the national team trained together for 11 months...

 

[Peter25]

Why do Soviet fans always give the impression that "dirty tricks" were what Canada used exclusively in international competition, and that refs purposely turned a blind eye?

Because it is what happened especially in Canada Cups. Canada also brought some dirty teams to World Championships as well, especially in 1977 and 1982 (which was a great team otherwise, but dirty as hell).

How Wilf Paiement played in 1977 might have been the dirtiest display of any player in the WC history. He literally used his stick to swing off heads. Just ask Sergei Babinov.

Barry Long is another good example in 1981 in the WC in Sweden. Talk about a player who can only use his stick, not his feet.

Clearly, the officiating standard was much different in NA vs. Europe regarding stickwork and rough play, unless someone wants to make the case that there were political reasons for the refs allowing the Bruins and Flyers tenderize opponents on their way to Cups.

This is not a valid argument since similar cheap shots would not have been tolerated by the refs if the Soviets committed them.

 

[Peter25]

It's hilarious calming European ref would have been better than NHL refs when e.g. Finland were screwed several times by Eastern European refs in international tournaments in the 80's and before.

Really? Tell more.

Not to mention mentioning how the Russian league lasted from September to April while conveniently forgetting the fact that the national team trained together for 11 months...

How is this possible? How can the Spartak line of Kapustin, Shepelev and Shalimov play for Spartak and train for the national team at the same time? Can they break the laws of physics?

 

[Jussi]

Mods would be better off locking this thread up, because it's become the usual "Peter25 whines about North American refs in Canada Cups" thread.

 

[Peter25]

No, the difference now is since the NHL starting luring Russian players Russia no longer has the advantage of playing together all year round.

Come on. The difference was that after 1991 the Soviet development system collapsed and the system could not develop new players to replace the old ones, and those who left for the NHL (Bure, Fedorov etc.) rarely played for the national team.

The Russian team at the 2010 Olympics was extremely talented but they played disjointed like most of the other teams comprised of NHL players and never recovered.

It was far cry from the 1981 team. They should not even be compared. The 2010 team had no defense at all. The defense of the 1981 team was fantastic.

We have to see if Russian hockey can rebound close to its Soviet peak level now that it has actually some funding. They just need to have more competent people running things. Soviet hockey was run by extremely competent people. This is why it was the best.

 

[doakacola*]

The difference is Canada is now the greatest hockey nation and even when they were behind the USSR they could play well in Europe in some Worlds and especially World Juniors. Meanwhile USA Hockey apart from the world junior gold 2004 has always been a joke in official tournaments not held in North America or in CanadaCups when The USSR existed and came to win...

I mean dude, what planet are you on. The US won the WJ 2010 in one of the most hostile environments in history. Who cares it was in North America, it might as well have been played in The Kremlin circa 1960. That was a tremendous accomplishment. Want to tell me where Russia was in 2004 or 2010? Thats twice in 7 seven years, PFG for a supposed joke of a program.