What was the greatest tournament win by a men's team other than Canada?

[Jussi]

Really? Tell more.

I'm going to answer just like you do at jatkoaika: I haven't got time to answer all these questions.

Seriously, if you paid any attention to World Championships and Olympics in the 80's or read stories from old players, you'd know them. Or go look up old issues of Jääkiekkolehti.

How is this possible? How can the Spartak line of Kapustin, Shepelev and Shalimov play for Spartak and train for the national team at the same time? Can they break the laws of physics?

IN THE OFFSEASON.

 

[AustonWassup]

I'll try. While I don't doubt the resources aren't the same as they were under the communist system, the main reason for Russia's lack of success internationally over the last two decades is it's now in the same boat as everyone else and most of its officials and fans are in denial.

The massive advantages they had heading into international play in the past -- the discriminatory IIHF ban against North American pros, the Red Army hothouse system that put almost all of Russia's top players on one team to develop together for years, and not having to throw together ill-prepared teams at the last minute -- no longer exist.

If that's what you mean by collapse, I guess I agree with you. Otherwise, no.

The fact that a bunch of U.S. university players were forced to go up against the Soviets in 1980 says everything that needs to said about the undeniable and unfair advantage Russians and others had over North American teams for decades.

The Russian hockey system was geared toward winning internationally and everything was poured into that to the exclusion of all else. Now that's no longer possible and you're seeng the result. The myth of Soviet supremacy was built on an ice surface far more tilted than anything you claim with the Canada Cup.

Brilliant post.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Peter25]

"I'm going to answer just like you do at jatkoaika: I haven't got time to answer all these questions."

It was a hockey related question, not a question about "hatred of Jews".



"Seriously, if you paid any attention to World Championships and Olympics in the 80's or read stories from old players, you'd know them. Or go look up old issues of Jääkiekkolehti."

Well, can you name a ref who intentionally screwed Finland in a similar way that Koharski screwed the USSR in 1987?



"IN THE OFFSEASON."

Off-season lasted 11 months?

 

[doakacola*]

Peter25, wasn't the D of 81 essentially the same as 1980. I remember that D of 1980 letting Mark Johnson come right down the slot untouched in the last second to tie the game in P1. I remember Sergei Starikov doing nothing when Johnson scored again and how about that D just letting Mike Eruzione come down the slot uncontested for the GWG. Yeah, that was some great D when it mattered most.

 

[Jussi]

Another advantage the Soviets had was Soviet "medicins". Like Larionov has said, "we didn't always know what they injected into our bodies, no one dared to question."

As for an example of crappy refereeing by an Eastern European (page 84, Dombrowski): http://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&sourc...mN5ZID&usg=AFQjCNFPLE1l8rqrrDdcxTlYKK_aWp7s7Q

 

[Peter25]

I'll try. While I don't doubt the resources aren't the same as they were under the communist system, the main reason for Russia's lack of success internationally over the last two decades is it's now in the same boat as everyone else and most of its officials and fans are in denial.

I think the main reasons were

1. The exodus of the best players who were not available for the national team anymore.
2. The collapse of the level of the national league
3. The collapse of the development system.

Russia produced practically zero talent in the 1990s. Bure, Fedorov, Zubov, Mogilny, Yashin, Kovalev, Gonchar, Kozlov, Zhamnov and Malakhov were the last jewels of the USSR development system. They were all developed in the Soviet Union.

After this generation the next wave of good Russians are the Kovalchuk/Ovechkin/Malkin/Semin generation! Russia practically missed a whole decade of player development, and even the Ovechkin generation cannot be compared to the best Soviet generations (namely the KLM line with Fetisov and Kasatonov).

In the 1990s Russian junior system produced two world class players - Andrei Markov and Pavel Datsyuk. That is only two for a whole decade. It was literally a wasted decade.

The quality of the player development fell so badly that the Russian teams, even those with all the available NHL talent, could not even dream of being as good as those Soviet powerhouses.

 

[Peter25]

Peter25, wasn't the D of 81 essentially the same as 1980. I remember that D of 1980 letting Mark Johnson come right down the slot untouched in the last second to tie the game in P1. I remember Sergei Starikov doing nothing when Johnson scored again and how about that D just letting Mike Eruzione come down the slot uncontested for the GWG. Yeah, that was some great D when it mattered most.

Yeah, the D in 1981 was practically the same was it was in 1980. The only difference was that Sergei Starikov who played in 1980 was not on the 1981 team.

That 1980 victory for the US is strange in many ways. The Soviet players were sleeping in a local prison(!), and according to some stories local people came in to make noise at nights so that the players would not be able to sleep. Who knows. Might be true or false.

It was certainly a strange game. The Soviets didnt look like themselves and were lackadaisical, but still dominated the game completely. The difference in talent was just so visible, as it should be considering they were playing against college kids.

It truly was a miracle.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

I think the main reasons were

1. The exodus of the best players who were not available for the national team anymore.
2. The collapse of the level of the national league
3. The collapse of the development system.

Russia produced practically zero talent in the 1990s. Bure, Fedorov, Zubov, Mogilny, Yashin, Kovalev, Gonchar, Kozlov, Zhamnov and Malakhov were the last jewels of the USSR development system. They were all developed in the Soviet Union.

After this generation the next wave of good Russians are the Kovalchuk/Ovechkin/Malkin/Semin generation! Russia practically missed a whole decade of player development, and even the Ovechkin generation cannot be compared to the best Soviet generations (namely the KLM line with Fetisov and Kasatonov).

In the 1990s Russian junior system produced two world class players - Andrei Markov and Pavel Datsyuk. That is only two for a whole decade. It was literally a wasted decade.

The quality of the player development fell so badly that the Russian teams, even those with all the available NHL talent, could not even dream of being as good as those Soviet powerhouses.

I also think greed took over. Under the Soviet system it was all about the team, whereas when the wall came down, a selfishness developed in Russian hockey. IMO a guy like Bure, a great individual talent, but not much of a team guy, might well have been benched if he didn't embrace the team concept.

 

[AustonWassup]

according to some stories local people came in to make noise at nights so that the players would not be able to sleep.

Same thing happened to Canada in Russia during the Summit series

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Because it is what happened especially in Canada Cups. Canada also brought some dirty teams to World Championships as well, especially in 1977 and 1982 (which was a great team otherwise, but dirty as hell).

No, it wasn't "especially in Canada Cups". Like I said, multiple Stanley Cup winners in Boston and Philadelphia employed the same tactics.

How Wilf Paiement played in 1977 might have been the dirtiest display of any player in the WC history. He literally used his stick to swing off heads. Just ask Sergei Babinov.

Happened in the NHL too. Just ask Wayne Maki and Ted Green.

This is not a valid argument since similar cheap shots would not have been tolerated by the refs if the Soviets committed them.

You know this how? You yourself said:

One thing that I dont understand is, that the Soviets never responded to all of those cheap shots that they received. I dont remember even one play that could be described as a "dirty" by the Soviets in the whole series. At the same time the Soviets were crosschecked, slashed, speared and slew-footed in each game.

So you "dont remember even one play that could be described as a 'dirty' by the Soviets in the whole series", yet you're somehow convinced "similar cheap shots would not have been tolerated by the refs if the Soviets committed them".

I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion.

 

[New User Name]

Yeah, the D in 1981 was practically the same was it was in 1980. The only difference was that Sergei Starikov who played in 1980 was not on the 1981 team.

That 1980 victory for the US is strange in many ways. The Soviet players were sleeping in a local prison(!), and according to some stories local people came in to make noise at nights so that the players would not be able to sleep. Who knows. Might be true or false.

It was certainly a strange game. The Soviets didnt look like themselves and were lackadaisical, but still dominated the game completely. The difference in talent was just so visible, as it should be considering they were playing against college kids.

It truly was a miracle.

I also heard years ago that the Russian players so underestimated the Americans that they went out the night before and got drunk.....of course I don't believe that.

 

[Peter25]

I also think greed took over. Under the Soviet system it was all about the team, whereas when the wall came down, a selfishness developed in Russian hockey. IMO a guy like Bure, a great individual talent, but not much of a team guy, might well have been benched if he didn't embrace the team concept.

Nah, Krutov was also selfish and yet he was the best winger in the world.

 

[Peter25]

I also heard years ago that the Russian players so underestimated the Americans that they went out the night before and got drunk.....of course I don't believe that.

Drunk? Under tutelage of Viktor Tikhonov?

 

[New User Name]

Drunk? Under tutelage of Viktor Tikhonov?

Well there was talk about it. You know, an excuse for losing.

 

[Peter25]

Well there was talk about it. You know, an excuse for losing.

Never heard.

 

[Macman]

Drunk? Under tutelage of Viktor Tikhonov?

Well, you know you can get alcohol in prison.

 

[Peter25]

Another advantage the Soviets had was Soviet "medicins". Like Larionov has said, "we didn't always know what they injected into our bodies, no one dared to question."

As for an example of crappy refereeing by an Eastern European (page 84, Dombrowski): http://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&sourc...mN5ZID&usg=AFQjCNFPLE1l8rqrrDdcxTlYKK_aWp7s7Q

End this "medicina injection" never happens in the NHL?

 

[Jussi]

I also heard years ago that the Russian players so underestimated the Americans that they went out the night before and got drunk.....of course I don't believe that.

I'm sorry, that excuse is reserved to the 1988 Olympic team which lost it's final game to Finland.

 

[Jussi]

End this "medicina injection" never happens in the NHL?

Not much record of it from the 80's NHL, only a direct quote from a representative of a totalitarian system which used all possible means against the West in sports.

 

[Macman]

End this "medicina injection" never happens in the NHL?

No doubt some players partake but it's certainly not systemic like it almost certainly was under the Soviet regime. Do you agree?

The only thing Phll Esposito was on was pizza and beer.

 

[Peter25]

No doubt some players partake but it's certainly not systemic like it almost certainly was under the Soviet regime. Do you agree?

Who knows? I find it strange that Finnish players who grow to North America suddenly seem to grow muscle so fast and get a stronger chin.

 

[Jussi]

No doubt some players partake but it's certainly not systemic like it certainly was under the Soviet regime. Do you agree?

Fixed that for you. Doping WAS systematic in communist countries.

 

[Peter25]

Not much record of it from the 80's NHL,

I remember some American players of getting caught, but it might have been in the 90s. I guess Ben Johnson was the only ahtlete using drugs in the "free west" in the 80s.

only a direct quote from a representative of a totalitarian system which used all possible means against the West in sports.

Like having its own refs to allow golf swings to the heads of commies?

 

[Jussi]

Who knows? I find it strange that Finnish players who grow to North America suddenly seem to grow muscle so fast and get a stronger chin.

He's referring to the 80's.

 

[Jussi]

I remember some American players of getting caught, but it might have been in the 90s. I guess Ben Johnson was the only ahtlete using drugs in the "free west" in the 80s.

Like having its own refs to allow golf swings to the heads of commies?

It's like arguing with a child...