What was the greatest tournament win by a men's team other than Canada?

[Peter25]

It's like arguing with a child...

Taking a "Jew-hate" route again...

 

[Jussi]

Taking a "Jew-hate" route again...

Ahem...: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=11444992&postcount=27

 

[NyQuil]

This is just a totally incorrect statement regarding the two states that pulled in 15 of the 19 players who actually participated in the 1980 Miracle on Ice. Hockey in Minnesota and Massachusetts was far from a "fringe" sport for athletes growing up

I said a fringe regional sport.

I meant that it is a fringe sport overall that was only popular in particular regions.

Obviously my statement wasn't as clear as it could have been.

You are in fact violently agreeing with me.

 

[doakacola*]

I said a fringe regional sport.

I meant that it is a fringe sport overall that was only popular in particular regions.

Obviously my statement wasn't as clear as it could have been.

You are in fact violently agreeing with me.

Except that the combined populations of Minnesota and Massachusetts is about the same as Ontario, so just those two states in fact did produce talent that
while not on par with Ontario, was good enough to combine to produce enough talent for the Gold Medal in 1980. Canadians underestimate that given the right circumstances (Where SC Champion comes from), the US is completely capable of producing enough talent to compete with Canada and win enough (say 30%) to not let you guys get too arrogant. If you had circumstances where say Boston, Buffalo, Minnesota & Detroit were SC champions and contenders over say a decade, I could easily envision the US producing talent to attain at least that 30% figure. People in the US who love the sport have already seen what SC championships have done in Boston & Detroit, areas that had existing strong youth programs.

 

[Macman]

I guess Ben Johnson was the only ahtlete using drugs in the "free west" in the 80s.

Do you really want to get into a tit-for-tat over which country's athletes have been caught more for doping?

 

[Yatzhee]

I don't believe anything comes close to the Miracle on Ice back in 1980.

Agreed, college kids and ranking amatuers took on and defeated a highly skilled Russian Squad in 80. Most likely one of the top 5 greatest upsets in sports history.

 

[Pushkin]

I'd Say #1

 

[doakacola*]

It's like arguing with a child...

Tell Peter his hero, who is on pace to not even break 30 goals was most certainly partaking, along with his former high scoring teammate.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Agreed, college kids and ranking amatuers took on and defeated a highly skilled Russian Squad in 80. Most likely one of the top 5 greatest upsets in sports history.

The biggest upset in the history of international hockey for sure.

 

[NyQuil]

Except that the combined populations of Minnesota and Massachusetts is about the same as Ontario, so just those two states in fact did produce talent that
while not on par with Ontario, was good enough to combine to produce enough talent for the Gold Medal in 1980. Canadians underestimate that given the right circumstances (Where SC Champion comes from), the US is completely capable of producing enough talent to compete with Canada and win enough (say 30%) to not let you guys get too arrogant. If you had circumstances where say Boston, Buffalo, Minnesota & Detroit were SC champions and contenders over say a decade, I could easily envision the US producing talent to attain at least that 30% figure. People in the US who love the sport have already seen what SC championships have done in Boston & Detroit, areas that had existing strong youth programs.

I suppose the issue is that it doesn't matter who wins the Cup, Canada continues to produce talent.

The question is whether the overall increase in competitiveness is sustainable over the long-term or whether it will represent a blip of talent that may manifest in a few major championships over a single generation or so only to subside.

 

[Zine]

No doubt some players partake but it's certainly not systemic like it almost certainly was under the Soviet regime. Do you agree?

The only thing Phll Esposito was on was pizza and beer.

All things being equal, the # of athletes caught doping should reflect usage, no?

FACT - From 1968 to the fall of USSR, only 2 Soviet athletes tested positive in olympic competition (winter/summer). Likewise, 5 Americans as well as 2 Canadians were caught.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_performance-enhancing_drugs_in_the_Olympic_Games

 

[doakacola*]

I suppose the issue is that it doesn't matter who wins the Cup, Canada continues to produce talent.

The question is whether the overall increase in competitiveness is sustainable over the long-term or whether it will represent a blip of talent that may manifest in a few major championships over a single generation or so only to subside.

That matters enormously in the US, like I just pointed out the perfect storm against Canadian supremacy would be for the Wings, B's, Wild & Sabres to each win at least one Cup over a decade and appear in a final also. Those four areas easily have the deepest existing infrastrucutre and hockey interest in the US. So under a scenario like that, it would be easy and I mean easy for the US to do it.

One only needs to look at what happened in Boston during the Orr boom and see today whats happened since the Wings got competitive in the very late 80's and 90's.

 

[Macman]

All things being equal, the # of athletes caught doping should reflect usage, no?

FACT - From 1968 to the fall of USSR, only 2 Soviet athletes tested positive in olympic competition (winter/summer). Likewise, 5 Americans as well as 2 Canadians were caught.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_performance-enhancing_drugs_in_the_Olympic_Games

Are you serious? Who do you think is more likely to get caught, a dummy like Ben Johnson, or an athlete with a team of doctors behind him scheduling the cycling, etc.?

By your measure, the East German swimmers were as clean as a whistle.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Are you serious? Who do you think is more likely to get caught, a dummy like Ben Johnson, or an athlete with a team of doctors behind him scheduling the cycling, etc.?

By your measure, the East German swimmers were as clean as a whistle.

Interesting conspiracy story about Johnson. The stuff he was caught with was not the stuff he was using. Plus he was off the stuff long enough for it to leave his system. Even though Johnson was dumb, his handlers were not. Hmmmmm.

Methinks somebody slipped something into his soup.

 

[Macman]

Interesting conspiracy story about Johnson. The stuff he was caught with was not the stuff he was using. Plus he was off the stuff long enough for it to leave his system. Even though Johnson was dumb, his handlers were not. Hmmmmm.

Methinks somebody slipped something into his soup.

Nah. He admitted doing roids during the Dubin inquiry, including what he tested positive for in Seoul.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

All things being equal, the # of athletes caught doping should reflect usage, no?

FACT - From 1968 to the fall of USSR, only 2 Soviet athletes tested positive in olympic competition (winter/summer). Likewise, 5 Americans as well as 2 Canadians were caught.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_performance-enhancing_drugs_in_the_Olympic_Games

My understanding is that usage was widespread amongst every country who hoped to win, but the East Bloc countries were better at it.

US and Canadian athletes, for instance, did it to win as individuals, whereas the East Bloc countries it had a stronger infrastructure and winning was used as a propaganda tool, and the end would justify the means regardless of the health consequences to the individual.

 

[TasteofFlames]

While it may not have been as impactful from a cultural standpoint, the 1960 US Men's Olympic team blazed a path to the gold medal that was every bit as improbable as the 1980 team.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Nah. He admitted doing roids during the Dubin inquiry, including what he tested positive for in Seoul.

He was on steroids, but according to Francis(personal coach), Johnson and Astaphan (his physician), he never took Stanazolol, the stuff he was caught with. He was on a East European drug called Furazabol (or something like that). He was guilty, but so was everybody else in the field and they were all tested as well and came up clean. Johnson was probably caught with a drug he never took because somebody slipped something into his drink or food.

 

[Jussi]

He was on steroids, but according to Francis(personal coach), Johnson and Astaphan (his physician), he never took Stanazolol, the stuff he was caught with. He was on a East European drug called Furazabol (or something like that). He was guilty, but so was everybody else in the field and they were all tested as well and came up clean. Johnson was probably caught with a drug he never took because somebody slipped something into his drink or food.

Probably Carl Lewis.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Probably Carl Lewis.

Unlike Johnson, I don't name names.

Just as an aside, a good friend of Lewis was hanging around with Johnson in the testing area and handed Johnson a drink. Apparantly there are pictures and neither Lewis or the person in question have ever threatened a lawsuit against Johnson, despite the obvious libel/slander if Johnson is lieing. Hmmmmm.

 

[Zine]

Are you serious? Who do you think is more likely to get caught, a dummy like Ben Johnson, or an athlete with a team of doctors behind him scheduling the cycling, etc.?

By your measure, the East German swimmers were as clean as a whistle.

...but but but, didn't you just not post this?:

Do you really want to get into a tit-for-tat over which country's athletes have been caught more for doping?

Now that you've been proven wrong, you're obviously in excuses mode attempting to shift the discussion to 'quality of doping doctors'.

Gimme a break, I'm sure North American athletes never had elite doctors 'helping' them......they just obtained their 'roids in a dark alley somewhere.
Steroid use is (and always has been) systematic everywhere no matter what the country.

 

[Jussi]

Now that you've been proven wrong, you're obviously in excuses mode attempting to shift the discussion to 'quality of doping doctors'.

Gimme a break, I'm sure North American athletes never had elite doctors 'helping' them......they just obtained their 'roids in a dark alley somewhere.
Steroid use is (and always has been) systematic everywhere no matter what the country.

But it was most extreme in the Eastern bloc countries. I haven't heard of North American athletes going through a sex change due to steroid use.

 

[NyQuil]

That matters enormously in the US, like I just pointed out the perfect storm against Canadian supremacy would be for the Wings, B's, Wild & Sabres to each win at least one Cup over a decade and appear in a final also. Those four areas easily have the deepest existing infrastrucutre and hockey interest in the US. So under a scenario like that, it would be easy and I mean easy for the US to do it.

One only needs to look at what happened in Boston during the Orr boom and see today whats happened since the Wings got competitive in the very late 80's and 90's.

Like I just said, it doesn't matter who wins the Cup in terms of Canada's ability to produce talent.

While apparently the US relies on that mechanism.

Hence my question as to whether all it takes is a little bit of success to create a sustainable hockey culture in a particular US region or whether is only lasts as long as the local team is competitive.

I'm not thinking a single generation, but over decades of time.

 

[Macman]

...but but but, didn't you just not post this?:





Now that you've been proven wrong, you're obviously in excuses mode attempting to shift the discussion to 'quality of doping doctors'.

Gimme a break, I'm sure North American athletes never had elite doctors 'helping' them......they just obtained their 'roids in a dark alley somewhere.
Steroid use is (and always has been) systematic everywhere no matter what the country.

If you insist.

Two Canadians have failed tests in the history of the Olympics, including a sailor who took a decongestant.

Your list of Russian offenders ended conveniently at the fall of the wall but mine won't. Russia has had nine caught. Since you've already stated that the number of cheaters who are caught reflect usage, I guess you believe now that Russians athletes dope more?

And, no, systemic steroid use is not everywhere. Is it any coincidence that the majority of Russian cheaters have been caught since the fall of the wall?

 

[doakacola*]

Like I just said, it doesn't matter who wins the Cup in terms of Canada's ability to produce talent.

While apparently the US relies on that mechanism.

Hence my question as to whether all it takes is a little bit of success to create a sustainable hockey culture in a particular US region or whether is only lasts as long as the local team is competitive.

I'm not thinking a single generation, but over decades of time.

There will always be a base of interest and talent produced in Mass, Minn, Mich and Western NY. However there is no question success breeds interest and participation in the US since we many areas lack the community infrastructure Canada has, so you always will have that advantage.