What was the greatest tournament win by a men's team other than Canada?

[AustonWassup]

The Challenge Cup was heralded as the "Series of a Century" beforehand and shown primetime in TV throughout North America.

After the series was over, it was quickly forgotten.

Congratulations....a Russian All-star team who trained together all year round defeated an NHL All-star team who were together for about a week.

If Gretzky, Lemieux and Messier had trained together for an entire year prior to the 1987 Canada Cup I can assure we would not be having this conversation.

 

[New User Name]

It's been argued that not only is the 1980 USA Men's Hockey Gold Medal the greatest upset in Olympic history, it's been argued that it could be considered the greatest upset in all of sports.

Now that is quite a broad field to be even be considered.

With that said, it's without question in my mind, that the Miracle on Ice is the greatest tournament win ever, let alone more than any tourny Canada ever won.

I agree with you 100%.

A bunch of college kids thrown together in a few weeks beating a well oiled machine that were together 24/7---365 was a tremendous accomplishment.

 

[Pushkin]

Talk about not knowing history... If you want to count 1976 and 1991 in your fantasy "best on best" then you would have to count 1974 and most World Championships in the 80's when Canada sent some of their best players and had good teams. Because in 1976 the Soviets sent their B Team to the Canada Cup and in 1991 for an obvious reason they didn't have their A team either.

And in your same fantasy world of "best on best" you do realize that for one exception it was always on Canadian Rinks Canadian Homes and with Canadian Refs?

In 1979 and 1981 we completely destroyed you. In 1984 without our two best players injured(not an excuse) we lost a very tight game in OT after destroying you earlier in the tournament...

In 1987 I must agree with Peter and common knowledge wich said that was the best hockey ever played but the result was faked aka WWF style by the Canadian refs. In the last game it was 3-0 USSR then fake penalties after another got Canada back into the game and finally on the "winning goal" the Canadian ref "MISSED" the call. In the book on CC87 Koharski admits it was a mistake but it COULDN'T CALL IT...Go figure.

Altough it produced the best hockey ever the 3 Canada Cups of the 80's are not to be consider when talking bout hockey supremany. Because clearly it was a home tournament for Canada with everything going for them as a Wrestlemania match...It was sport but not far from fixed wrestling...

1972= We were humiliating you until you purposely injured our best player.

All in All USSR hockey dominance is untouchable. When we clearly beat you in your own rinks by 7-3 6-0 8-1 scores you had to resort to dirty tactics to claim wins almost everytime in OT or by one goal....

 

[Peter25]

For someone who claims to believe they were minor tournaments, you sure get worked up about them -- even three decades later. I suppose the Olympics and world championships back then were "major" in your view?

They were not minor in a sense that they were the only tournament where the best Soviet and Czech players could play against the best Canadian professionals. Too bad that the conditions were not made equal for each team.

Then again, this was Canada's tournament. It was not played under IIHF. It was not called "Canada Cup" for nothing. Canada had the right to organize this tournament the way they like.

But I would still say that the Soviet players should have been given a right to expect a fair reffing. They, as an athletes and the representatives of their country, were cheated by Koharski and his master Alan Eagleson.

This was admitted by Igor Larionov after the 1984 tournament. Larionov, a fierce critic of the communist system and an admirer of the Canadian hockey, said: "We were cheated by the Canadian hockey mob". Larionov was as critical to his own coach Tikhonov as he was to Canada Cup organizers. This man is no puppet but a man of his own.

The fact is Russia's record in best-on-best tournaments was dismal then and is even worse now. I guess it's easier to concoct conspiracies and blame boogey men than face the obvious conclusion.

USSR won the 1981 tournament and was a "moral winner" in 1984 and 1987 as well. This is not dismal. In 1976 they didnt bring their best players. Sure the level of hockey collapsed after 1991, no one has tried to deny this.

 

[jordan7hm]

It's been argued that not only is the 1980 USA Men's Hockey Gold Medal the greatest upset in Olympic history, it's been argued that it could be considered the greatest upset in all of sports.

Giants over Pats. Probably some soccer stuff, maybe that South African rugby team, I dunno.

From what I read after the fact it seems like there were issues with the Soviet team off the ice in that tournament. The USA took advantage. Good for them. Hell of a win and probably best ever upset in Olympic hockey.

 

[bruinforstanley]

Exactly.

The US doesn't even really care about hockey, particularly in 1980, except as a fringe regional sport.

Whereas every tournament involving Canada becomes part of the zeitgeist and shared common experience as a nation, for the US, it requires something pretty outrageous to enter the general public consciousness.

And your point is?

The question posed by the OP was "What is the greatest tournament win by a men's team other than Canada?

We all know hockey is a religion in Canada. We all know that it is not, in the US. However, that doesn't give our friends up north the right to claim deed to the "greatest" anything about hockey. The fact that the US boasts a 4-1 ratio in teams should be proof enough that the US regards hockey in very high esteem (again, not as rabid as in Canada). Simply put, there are more options in the US and a much broader ethnic base that have claim to their own heritage. It's not all about hockey to everyone.....whereas in Canada, it is.

 

[New User Name]

Talk about not knowing history... If you want to count 1976 and 1991 in your fantasy "best on best" then you would have to count 1974 and most World Championships in the 80's when Canada sent some of their best players and had good teams. Because in 1976 the Soviets sent their B Team to the Canada Cup and in 1991 for an obvious reason they didn't have their A team either.

And in your same fantasy world of "best on best" you do realize that for one exception it was always on Canadian Rinks Canadian Homes and with Canadian Refs?

In 1979 and 1981 we completely destroyed you. In 1984 without our two best players injured(not an excuse) we lost a very tight game in OT after destroying you earlier in the tournament...

In 1987 I must agree with Peter and common knowledge wich said that was the best hockey ever played but the result was faked aka WWF style by the Canadian refs. In the last game it was 3-0 USSR then fake penalties after another got Canada back into the game and finally on the "winning goal" the Canadian ref "MISSED" the call. In the book on CC87 Koharski admits it was a mistake but it COULDN'T CALL IT...Go figure.

Altough it produced the best hockey ever the 3 Canada Cups of the 80's are not to be consider when talking bout hockey supremany. Because clearly it was a home tournament for Canada with everything going for them as a Wrestlemania match...It was sport but not far from fixed wrestling...

1972= We were humiliating you until you purposely injured our best player.

All in All USSR hockey dominance is untouchable. When we clearly beat you in your own rinks by 7-3 6-0 8-1 scores you had to resort to dirty tactics to claim wins almost everytime in OT or by one goal....

I can't say I disagree with everything you said but I can say, imagine if Canada was able to ice a team under the same circumstances as the old Soviet Union...only problem, back then as today, Canada is a democracy.....damn I could say the same about the USA too. Put the best 25 US players together, train them like the Soviet Union and the results would be different.

I do know though, that a bunch of no name college kids beat that machine in one game in 1980 and dethroned the champs.

 

[Pushkin]

You realize Messier Gretzky and many others played all year round together with the Oilers and most of the others with the Islanders for years?

 

[doakacola*]

And this is precisely why the Olympics (prior to 1998) and World Championships don't count as well.

Thanks for helping me prove my point.

European refs, European ice, European fans, never being allowed to host, no professionals allowed...barriers to Canada competing on an even-keel were thrown up at every turn.



Exactly.

The US doesn't even really care about hockey, particularly in 1980, except as a fringe regional sport.

Whereas every tournament involving Canada becomes part of the zeitgeist and shared common experience as a nation, for the US, it requires something pretty outrageous to enter the general public consciousness.

This is just a totally incorrect statement regarding the two states that pulled in 15 of the 19 players who actually participated in the 1980 Miracle on Ice. Hockey in Minnesota and Massachusetts was far from a "fringe" sport for athletes growing up
in the 1960's and 1970's, which was the time those players grew up. As a native of Greater Boston, I can guarantee you that interest in and participation in hockey while not at the level of Ontario, Quebec or Prairie Canada in the 60's to mid-70's, wasn't far behind at all. We all know the interest and participation of hockey in Minnesota, so that just isn't true what you said. Some tremendous players emerged from both Minnesota and Massachusetts right after the 1980 Olympics. Langway, Barrasso, Carpenter from Massachusetts and the boatload of Minnesota boys from 1980, including Ramsey, Broten, Pavelich, Christian and Christoff (a real talent whose career was derailed by injuries), not to mention Housley.

Hockey was a MAJOR SPORT in Massachusetts and Minnesota then, nowhere near fringe.

 

[New User Name]

And your point is?

The question posed by the OP was "What is the greatest tournament win by a men's team other than Canada?

We all know hockey is a religion in Canada. We all know that it is not, in the US. However, that doesn't give our friends up north the right to claim deed to the "greatest" anything about hockey. The fact that the US boasts a 4-1 ration in teams should be proof enough that the US regards hockey in very high esteem (again, not as rabid as in Canada). Simply put, there are more options in the US and a much broader ethnic base that have claim to their own heritage. It's not all about hockey to everyone.....whereas in Canada, it is.

Not sure it's that much more in the states. As a percentage of the population.

 

[Peter25]

Congratulations....a Russian All-star team who trained together all year round defeated an NHL All-star team who were together for about a week.

It was not merely an All Star team. Gillies-Trottier-Bossy was playing together as they did on the Islanders. Barber and Clarke were playing together as well as they did on the Flyers. Nilsson and Hedbergh played together on the 4th line. Savard and Robinson formed one defensive pairing as they did on the Canadiens.

The NHL obviously believed that they could beat the Soviets with an All Star team. Otherwise this tournament would not have been held.

What is also working against your theory is that the NHL All Stars played their best game in game 1, which they also won. The Soviets won the next two games.

If Gretzky, Lemieux and Messier had trained together for an entire year prior to the 1987 Canada Cup I can assure we would not be having this conversation.

Who knows. But what we can be sure of, is that if the reffing was truly inpartial in 1987, the Soviets would have won the tournament.

 

[Pushkin]

In team sports for me the two biggest upset are Greece winning Euro04 and Miracle On Ice (USSR+Gold).

 

[Pushkin]

Gretzky Lemieux Coffey Anderson and cie. had been together for YEARS!

 

[New User Name]

I think Great Britain winning gold in 1936 was a huge upset too.

 

[AustonWassup]

You realize Messier Gretzky and many others played all year round together with the Oilers and most of the others with the Islanders for years?

Gretzky and Messier very rarely played on the same line in Edmonton. And 3 or 4 guys playing for each team does not equal an entire team playing together throughout the year.

Are you seriously implying that the Russians playing together for years didn't give them an advantage???

It's no secret why the Canadian teams struggled in the prelims of most of those tournaments and got better as they moved along.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

I think Great Britain winning gold in 1936 was a huge upset too.

That team was mostly Canadians of British ancestry. It's suprising to see Great Britain with a championship, but given the circumstances, not all suprising.

 

[doakacola*]

Talk about not knowing history... If you want to count 1976 and 1991 in your fantasy "best on best" then you would have to count 1974 and most World Championships in the 80's when Canada sent some of their best players and had good teams. Because in 1976 the Soviets sent their B Team to the Canada Cup and in 1991 for an obvious reason they didn't have their A team either.

And in your same fantasy world of "best on best" you do realize that for one exception it was always on Canadian Rinks Canadian Homes and with Canadian Refs?

In 1979 and 1981 we completely destroyed you. In 1984 without our two best players injured(not an excuse) we lost a very tight game in OT after destroying you earlier in the tournament...

In 1987 I must agree with Peter and common knowledge wich said that was the best hockey ever played but the result was faked aka WWF style by the Canadian refs. In the last game it was 3-0 USSR then fake penalties after another got Canada back into the game and finally on the "winning goal" the Canadian ref "MISSED" the call. In the book on CC87 Koharski admits it was a mistake but it COULDN'T CALL IT...Go figure.

Altough it produced the best hockey ever the 3 Canada Cups of the 80's are not to be consider when talking bout hockey supremany. Because clearly it was a home tournament for Canada with everything going for them as a Wrestlemania match...It was sport but not far from fixed wrestling...

1972= We were humiliating you until you purposely injured our best player.

All in All USSR hockey dominance is untouchable. When we clearly beat you in your own rinks by 7-3 6-0 8-1 scores you had to resort to dirty tactics to claim wins almost everytime in OT or by one goal....

Losing to an NCAA All-Star team in 1980, which was missing its two best players from the college aged pool of players (Langway and Mullen) by itself prevents the USSR from ever being able to lay claimn to supremacy, the USSR couldn't beat an NCAA All-Star team when it counted, sorry Pushkin that alone kills your claim.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Losing to an NCAA All-Star team in 1980, which was missing its two best players from the college aged pool of players (Langway and Mullen) by itself prevents the USSR from ever being able to lay claimn to supremacy, the USSR couldn't beat an NCAA All-Star team when it counted, sorry Pushkin that alone kills your claim.

Really shows what can happen when a team is allowed to train together for a year or more and develop chemistry. Imagine if the 20 best Canadians of the era had been allowed to train together for a year.

 

[AustonWassup]

Gretzky Lemieux Coffey Anderson and cie. had been together for YEARS!

No they weren't.

 

[Pushkin]

It's the exception that confirms the rule. + if it wasn't then why is it regarded as the biggest upset off all time in sports by most people even in countries where hockey is barely played?

Sure being together all year round gives them an advantage. The coaching also was much better back then. But that has nothing to do with cheating on the ice...

All of this made them the best hockey machine ever that's a fact. Only derailed without some kind of cheating or fixing a few times.

 

[Peter25]

Really shows what can happen when a team is allowed to train together for a year or more and develop chemistry. Imagine if the 20 best Canadians of the era had been allowed to train together for a year.

Ummm, which Soviet national team trained together for the year?

Let's the the 1981 CC team for example

Tretiak, CSKA
Myshkin, Soviet Wings

Fetisov, CSKA
Kasatonov, CSKA
Babinov, CSKA
Pervukhin, Dynamo
Vasilyev, Dynamo
Bilyaletdinov, Dynamo
Zubkov, Spartak

Krutov, CSKA
Larionov, Voskresensk
Makarov, CSKA
Golikov, Dynamo
Maltsev, Dynamo
Drozdetsky, CSKA
Kapustin, Spartak
Shepelev, Spartak
Shalimov, Spartak
Khomutov, CSKA
Zhluktov, CSKA
Skvortsov, Gorky
Gimayev, CSKA

Aroung 50% of the players played for the Red Army. The rest of them came from three or four other clubs.

 

[Pushkin]

Obviously I ment Messier... The thing is you over-value team chemistry. We're talking about the best players playing with the best players. Gretzky and Lemieux in 87 sure couldn't have played better if they would have been together since starting playing hockey...

Sure it was an advantage but it's not as if great players can't have good chemistry with other great players almost instantly. One thing we had back then was much better coaching and training and that's not the case anymore. Canada is now way ahead in that regard.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Ummm, which Soviet national team trained together for the year?

Let's the the 1981 CC team for example

Tretiak, CSKA
Myshkin, Soviet Wings

Fetisov, CSKA
Kasatonov, CSKA
Babinov, CSKA
Pervukhin, Dynamo
Vasilyev, Dynamo
Bilyaletdinov, Dynamo
Zubkov, Spartak

Krutov, CSKA
Larionov, Voskresensk
Makarov, CSKA
Golikov, Dynamo
Maltsev, Dynamo
Drozdetsky, CSKA
Kapustin, Spartak
Shepelev, Spartak
Shalimov, Spartak
Khomutov, CSKA
Zhluktov, CSKA
Skvortsov, Gorky
Gimayev, CSKA

Aroung 50% of the players played for the Red Army. The rest of them came from three or four other clubs.

They trained together as a national team for significant portions of the year. The Russian league only had 40-50 games schedules. The rest of the time, those players trained as a unit. In addition, they had the 5 man units that played together all the time.

 

[New User Name]

Obviously I ment Messier... The thing is you over-value team chemistry. We're talking about the best players playing with the best players. Gretzky and Lemieux in 87 sure couldn't have played better if they would have been together since starting playing hockey...

Sure it was an advantage but it's not as if great players can't have good chemistry with other great players almost instantly. One thing we had back then was much better coaching and training and that's not the case anymore. Canada is now way ahead in that regard.

Just curious, why is that?

 

[doakacola*]

Really shows what can happen when a team is allowed to train together for a year or more and develop chemistry. Imagine if the 20 best Canadians of the era had been allowed to train together for a year.

I went to HS from 69-73 in Greater Boston. People like to point to the 1980 Miracle
as the defining moment in US Hockey. I won't disagree with that, however hockey
was incredibly popular in Mass and Minn in the late 60's and 70's. I can remember
an article in SI about high school hockey in Minnesota and obviously being from Boston
watching the sport explode with Bobby Orr. If Orr had stayed healthy until say the end of the 70's hockey without question would have moved past baseball, basketball and football in Massachusetts in popularity and rivaled them in participation also. Its unfortunate for USA hockey Orr's career was cut short, because I honestly believe that a lot more talent would have come out of Mass if he stayed healthy.