What UFA should we really go after?

[TCNorthstars]

I don't know which Larsson you're talking about, and what it has to do with any of this.

If you want to die on the 'Larkin isn't elite' hill, have fun. Gonna be a real lonely place.

You might have that backwards. What, in your opinion, makes Larkin elite?

 

[haulinbass]

Makes no sense not to add a Karlsson when you have the opportunity, especially for free.

Oh, there are no possible downsides to this? Really, life is that simple to you huh? Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Even if I looked past all the downsides to how this could negatively impact a rebuild, I do not want to sign Karlsson who will be 29 years old when he signs his 7 year contract. There is huge downside to that alone.

Why can't people have any patience these days?

 

[Bench]

At the same time I think we're seeing people rain on Trouba because they don't want to pay anything for actual talent and just maybe not horribly suck for the next five years. You know, or until AA and Mantha have essentially slipped entirely from their prime. If that's really the plan, we may as well start looking at dealing Mantha, AA, and Bertuzzi for either high picks or guys a few years younger.

I hear you and agree. I'm bullish on getting players like Trouba.

But I could not abide the disrespect to Suter. Suter is the Zubov of his generation in terms of being a top defender, but never THE top defender, so he falls under the radar a bit despite consistent excellence.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Oh, there are no possible downsides to this? Really, life is that simple to you huh? Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Even if I looked past all the downsides to how this could negatively impact a rebuild, I do not want to sign Karlsson who will be 29 years old when he signs his 7 year contract. There is huge downside to that alone.

Why can't people have any patience these days?

Why do you want the rebuild to push for 10 years?

The fact that the Wings were able to produce talent out of the 2013 and 2014 and 2016 drafts when they were still making the playoffs grants them the ability to not be like Buffalo or Arizona in their rebuild. The Wings have a 1C, they have 3 or 4 quality top 6 forwards they were able to stash while drafting in the teens and twenties. They are probably drafting another one this year. They have 2 budding NHL defensemen from 2016; they have last years draft class which shows signs of producing out 4 prospects right off the bat who look like they are only 2 years or fewer from being NHL caliber players. At a certain point, you have to trust the groundwork you have laid. I know people have already mentioned it; if you don't trust the core you have now to go for the playoffs in the next 2 years, you should prepare to replace everyone in the current core.

If we can't plan ahead to compete in the playoffs in 2021, then what the f*** is the point of any of this? When is the right time? When Larkin's contract is expiring and he's 27-28 years old, his contract is expiring and we are still drafting players 2 years away from being ready?

Patience is fine, complacency is a death sentence. You aren't preaching patience, you're preaching complacency.

 

[obey86]

Why do you want the rebuild to push for 10 years?

The fact that the Wings were able to produce talent out of the 2013 and 2014 and 2016 drafts when they were still making the playoffs grants them the ability to not be like Buffalo or Arizona in their rebuild. The Wings have a 1C, they have 3 or 4 quality top 6 forwards they were able to stash while drafting in the teens and twenties. They are probably drafting another one this year. They have 2 budding NHL defensemen from 2016; they have last years draft class which shows signs of producing out 4 prospects right off the bat who look like they are only 2 years or fewer from being NHL caliber players. At a certain point, you have to trust the groundwork you have laid. I know people have already mentioned it; if you don't trust the core you have now to go for the playoffs in the next 2 years, you should prepare to replace everyone in the current core.

If we can't plan ahead to compete in the playoffs in 2021, then what the **** is the point of any of this? When is the right time? When Larkin's contract is expiring and he's 27-28 years old, his contract is expiring and we are still drafting players 2 years away from being ready?

Patience is fine, complacency is a death sentence. You aren't preaching patience, you're preaching complacency.

Exactly. At some point you have to have faith in your player evaluation and that you made the right draft picks. If Veleno, Hronek, Zadina, etc don't work out as expected then guess what......the rebuild is going to be delayed another 4-6 years regardless of if they sign Karlsson or not. Might as well sign a guy like Karlsson if the opportunity is there and IF those drafted players work out at the NHL level in 1-2 years you already have your #1 defensemen instead of having to search for him.

Wings have a high pick this year, will likely have another high pick next year (even with Karlsson), and then they really need to start being competitive. If you don't think that is reasonable, then this rebuild was already unsuccessful and they might as well just trade Larkin now.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Exactly. At some point you have to have faith in your player evaluation and that you made the right draft picks. If Veleno, Hronek, Zadina, etc don't work out as expected then guess what......the rebuild is going to be delayed another 4-6 years regardless of if they sign Karlsson or not. Might as well sign a guy like Karlsson if the opportunity is there and IF those drafted players work out at the NHL level in 1-2 years you already have your #1 defensemen instead of having to search for him.

That's why Kenny has been talking about this team pushing for the playoffs as early as next year. I don't think he would go all in as a buyer next year, but if you land a Karlsson and position yourself for Trouba the following year, you are shaving time off the rebuild.

Beginning of this season, we could look at the team and say "we need a 1C, a 1D, and the goalie of the future" not even touching on the depth that is needed. Over the course of this season, and into the current offseason, you're telling me we have the potential of Larkin looking like a PPG 1C, a 20 year old signed to his ELC beginning next year in Grand Rapids approaching "goalie of the future" status, and a chance at signing a 1D in Erik Karlsson long term without giving up any asset outside of cap space? Shit, that puts us in a position of only needing to fill out quality depth.

 

[Winger98]

I hear you and agree. I'm bullish on getting players like Trouba.

But I could not abide the disrespect to Suter. Suter is the Zubov of his generation in terms of being a top defender, but never THE top defender, so he falls under the radar a bit despite consistent excellence.

Zubov was so good back there. He didn't even get the respect he deserved when players on that team were talked about. It was always Hatcher taking the body. Or Matvichuk's shut down D. Or Sydor...well, taking a beating every game and not dying.

I wonder if Suter wishes he had done things differently. Playing that close to home has to be nice, but he's never sniffed a Cup.

 

[Shaman464]

I don't know which Larsson you're talking about, and what it has to do with any of this.

If you want to die on the 'Larkin isn't elite' hill, have fun. Gonna be a real lonely place. Saying Larkin's point totals will go up if he has Karlsson feeding him from the back end instead of what we currently have isn't pure speculation. Karlsson has something like 0.89 PPG avg over the last 6-7 seasons, that's 73 points. That's a lot of extra production. Seeing as how Karlsson would get the most minutes on the back end, and Larkin on the front end, stands to reason they'd be playing together quite a bit. And then you add PP time on top of that, with both of them on PP1. You don't think Larkin will benefit from that in terms of more points? There's no 'perfect situations' or 'what ifs' about it, it's math.

What's the aberration in scoring? This year's scoring rate was slightly above last year's, and there's been a general upward trend for the last 5+ years but it's nothing crazy. It's not even the most we've seen in the cap era. We're not seeing a crazy surge in general scoring. It's just becoming more top-heavy, with the major point producers enjoying career years. The 3rd and 4th liners are scoring less, the 1st liners are scoring more. This is something that benefits Larkin since he's a part of the latter group.

1. The last 2 seasons have seen a 10% increase in scoring over the 6 seasons that preceded them. "upward trend over 5 years" is bull. The three year average before the last 2 seasons was 2.73 gpg, which is the same as the 6 year average before the last 2 seasons. That's a flat line, not a trend.

2. Its not a very lonely hill if you look on the main board. Most see Larkin as a 1a/b center who would be best served with another center of his caliber centering with him on the 1a/b line scheme. That's not what is usually thought of when talking about elite centers.

3. You keep saying 'more pp time' and 'EK's production holding'. You're assuming way too much. First, there is no reason to think next season they will have more time on the PP, they could easily have less PP opportunities. There is no science behind which team gets more penalties called for them. Second, Karlsson hasn't played a full season over the last 3 seasons, with him only playing 53 games this year. Third, he's almost 30, there is no reason to believe his production will hold at 0.89 ppg. Until joining the 2nd most talented team in the NHL his advanced stats around point generation and possession were both on a very scary downward trend. It was only after being able to play more sheltered minutes, which included him being on the 2nd pairing over the course of the season, did his numbers rebound this season. He has no such luck on a Detroit team that has no top tier defensive talent to shelter him behind. And remember, he gets worse every year because of age and wear and tear.

 

[Shaman464]

Why do you want the rebuild to push for 10 years?

The fact that the Wings were able to produce talent out of the 2013 and 2014 and 2016 drafts when they were still making the playoffs grants them the ability to not be like Buffalo or Arizona in their rebuild. The Wings have a 1C, they have 3 or 4 quality top 6 forwards they were able to stash while drafting in the teens and twenties. They are probably drafting another one this year. They have 2 budding NHL defensemen from 2016; they have last years draft class which shows signs of producing out 4 prospects right off the bat who look like they are only 2 years or fewer from being NHL caliber players. At a certain point, you have to trust the groundwork you have laid. I know people have already mentioned it; if you don't trust the core you have now to go for the playoffs in the next 2 years, you should prepare to replace everyone in the current core.

If we can't plan ahead to compete in the playoffs in 2021, then what the **** is the point of any of this? When is the right time? When Larkin's contract is expiring and he's 27-28 years old, his contract is expiring and we are still drafting players 2 years away from being ready?

Patience is fine, complacency is a death sentence. You aren't preaching patience, you're preaching complacency.

This sounds like something a Toronto fan from the late 00's or early 10s might say. Trying to rush a rebuild has been a death sentence for teams as well. Toronto being a prime example of how it came sputter and burn and lead to extending that rebuild for long periods. The teams that have successfully rebuilt are teams that had their cores figured out before they brought in bigger names in free agency. Be it Chicago, Pittsburgh, or other teams. The formula that seems to work best is spend a few years building a core, then once it looks like that core is ready to compete, you go all in and add pieces that push you into contention. Detroit has had two seasons where they finished in the bottom quarter of the league, and next season the best case scenario is a defense of Karlsson and Hronek (the only 2 that would fill out a top 4 on a playoff team) with a 5th d-man in DDK, a couple 6th d-men in Daley, Bowey and possibly Kronwall. And, Karlsson is not a defensive stalwart. Being paired every night with DDK (most likely) would likely leave him being only marginally more productive offensively than that pairing would be allowing goals. This leaves them as a bubble team, not ready to compete, but not able to draft elite talent.

To use a construction analogy, don't try to build your house when you don't have a foundation. Its only going to cause it to collapse.

But, why listen to reason when Larkin and AA will score 100 points on the unlimited powerplays that EK will create, and Cholo really is a #1 guy, and Ras will transform into a 1B center and Veleno will be a 1C so 3 top lines amirite?

 

[Hen Kolland]

This sounds like something a Toronto fan from the late 00's or early 10s might say. Trying to rush a rebuild has been a death sentence for teams as well. Toronto being a prime example of how it came sputter and burn and lead to extending that rebuild for long periods. The teams that have successfully rebuilt are teams that had their cores figured out before they brought in bigger names in free agency. Be it Chicago, Pittsburgh, or other teams. The formula that seems to work best is spend a few years building a core, then once it looks like that core is ready to compete, you go all in and add pieces that push you into contention. Detroit has had two seasons where they finished in the bottom quarter of the league, and next season the best case scenario is a defense of Karlsson and Hronek (the only 2 that would fill out a top 4 on a playoff team) with a 5th d-man in DDK, a couple 6th d-men in Daley, Bowey and possibly Kronwall. And, Karlsson is not a defensive stalwart. Being paired every night with DDK (most likely) would likely leave him being only marginally more productive offensively than that pairing would be allowing goals. This leaves them as a bubble team, not ready to compete, but not able to draft elite talent.

To use a construction analogy, don't try to build your house when you don't have a foundation. Its only going to cause it to collapse.

But, why listen to reason when Larkin and AA will score 100 points on the unlimited powerplays that EK will create, and Cholo really is a #1 guy, and Ras will transform into a 1B center and Veleno will be a 1C so 3 top lines amirite?

Yeah, why try to finish a rebuild when you can sitting on your hands waiting for luck to finally bless you? It's working great for Arizona. But I understand it, you speak the loudest and have a general disdain for the franchise and everything it does, so I could see why sitting around in perpetual mediocrity would fuel your fire.

 

[Shaman464]

Yeah, why try to finish a rebuild when you can sitting on your hands waiting for luck to finally bless you? It's working great for Arizona. But I understand it, you speak the loudest and have a general disdain for the franchise and everything it does, so I could see why sitting around in perpetual mediocrity would fuel your fire.

And it worked great for Toronto too. Maybe Detroit should trade their next couple firsts for Phil Kessel. They need goal scorers! Karlsson has a million red flags around him, from him now becoming an injury concern, to the production curve that most players follow dropping in their 30s, to his advanced stats showing marked declined in key indicators of strong play. And yet, you think throwing 11 to 14 million a year at him for 7 years is a great idea? This is literally the most obvious trap of the salary cap era, overpaying for players who will spend most of their contract past their prime. I can guarantee if Detroit signs EK you will be bitching about him in 4 years about how he's making 13 million dollars a year, scoring 40 points and is atrocious in his own zone. I am sure you will be formulating ways of dumping him ala Campbell so that Detroit will have the flexibility to sign the next flavor of the month.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

1. The last 2 seasons have seen a 10% increase in scoring over the 6 seasons that preceded them. "upward trend over 5 years" is bull. The three year average before the last 2 seasons was 2.73 gpg, which is the same as the 6 year average before the last 2 seasons. That's a flat line, not a trend.

2. Its not a very lonely hill if you look on the main board. Most see Larkin as a 1a/b center who would be best served with another center of his caliber centering with him on the 1a/b line scheme. That's not what is usually thought of when talking about elite centers.

3. You keep saying 'more pp time' and 'EK's production holding'. You're assuming way too much. First, there is no reason to think next season they will have more time on the PP, they could easily have less PP opportunities. There is no science behind which team gets more penalties called for them. Second, Karlsson hasn't played a full season over the last 3 seasons, with him only playing 53 games this year. Third, he's almost 30, there is no reason to believe his production will hold at 0.89 ppg. Until joining the 2nd most talented team in the NHL his advanced stats around point generation and possession were both on a very scary downward trend. It was only after being able to play more sheltered minutes, which included him being on the 2nd pairing over the course of the season, did his numbers rebound this season. He has no such luck on a Detroit team that has no top tier defensive talent to shelter him behind. And remember, he gets worse every year because of age and wear and tear.

On #2... who gives a ****? Having a 1a/1b worked out very well for Crosby/Malkin, Zetterberg/Datsyuk, and others. Didn't stop any of them from being elite. That's not much of an argument for knocking down Larkin. Zetterberg and Datsyuk functioned much better as a 1a/1b. Crosby and Malkin made the Pens an absolute terror because they could do that. Hell, Boston is as good as they are, because they've been able to roll Bergeron as the shutdown 1C and guys like David Krecji as the scoring line guy.

Frankly though... Karlsson as a declined 32-33 year old D is still going to be better than all but ten guys in the league? Even with him slowing down, he's guaranteed to be a top pairing D in ability for at least 5 years of that deal.

I don't pull out every stop to get Karlsson here, but I do a lot. And I'm certainly not scared of his year 32-34 seasons. If the Wings land a top pairing D, you'll see that most of their current guys are passable to good bottom half of the lineup D. Why they've been so bad is that they don't have guys capable of playing with the opposition's best skaters. DDK correctly slotted on a middle pair is a good defenseman. DDK slotted to go against the Patrick Kanes of the world for 25 minutes a night is a disaster.

 

[obey86]

This sounds like something a Toronto fan from the late 00's or early 10s might say. Trying to rush a rebuild has been a death sentence for teams as well. Toronto being a prime example of how it came sputter and burn and lead to extending that rebuild for long periods. The teams that have successfully rebuilt are teams that had their cores figured out before they brought in bigger names in free agency. Be it Chicago, Pittsburgh, or other teams. The formula that seems to work best is spend a few years building a core, then once it looks like that core is ready to compete, you go all in and add pieces that push you into contention. Detroit has had two seasons where they finished in the bottom quarter of the league, and next season the best case scenario is a defense of Karlsson and Hronek (the only 2 that would fill out a top 4 on a playoff team) with a 5th d-man in DDK, a couple 6th d-men in Daley, Bowey and possibly Kronwall. And, Karlsson is not a defensive stalwart. Being paired every night with DDK (most likely) would likely leave him being only marginally more productive offensively than that pairing would be allowing goals. This leaves them as a bubble team, not ready to compete, but not able to draft elite talent.

To use a construction analogy, don't try to build your house when you don't have a foundation. Its only going to cause it to collapse.

But, why listen to reason when Larkin and AA will score 100 points on the unlimited powerplays that EK will create, and Cholo really is a #1 guy, and Ras will transform into a 1B center and Veleno will be a 1C so 3 top lines amirite?

So if the Red Wings were to acquire a core piece this offseason (Trouba or Karlsson) that will cause the rebuild to not succeed? Can you explain your logic? Of if that's not your point, why does it matter whether they acquire Karlsson/Trouba now or not?

The way I see it, the rebuild is going to fail or succeed on the backs of Veleno, Hronek, Zadina, Cholowski, #6 pick, etc. If those players live up to expectations, the Red Wings will be competitive. If those players don't live up to expectations, the Red Wings will not be competitive and the rebuild failed.

So either the prospects work out and the rebuild succeeds and the Wings already have Karlsson OR the prospects don't workout and the rebuild fails and Wings have Karlsson but now they have to start rebuilding all over again. So what's the problem exactly? It's just cap space (with Karlsson). And if Veleno and company don't work out, we're not going to need that cap space over the next 4-5 years anyways because we would be rebuilding again. No?

 

[Shaman464]

On #2... who gives a ****? Having a 1a/1b worked out very well for Crosby/Malkin, Zetterberg/Datsyuk, and others. Didn't stop any of them from being elite. That's not much of an argument for knocking down Larkin. Zetterberg and Datsyuk functioned much better as a 1a/1b. Crosby and Malkin made the Pens an absolute terror because they could do that. Hell, Boston is as good as they are, because they've been able to roll Bergeron as the shutdown 1C and guys like David Krecji as the scoring line guy.

Frankly though... Karlsson as a declined 32-33 year old D is still going to be better than all but ten guys in the league? Even with him slowing down, he's guaranteed to be a top pairing D in ability for at least 5 years of that deal.

I don't pull out every stop to get Karlsson here, but I do a lot. And I'm certainly not scared of his year 32-34 seasons. If the Wings land a top pairing D, you'll see that most of their current guys are passable to good bottom half of the lineup D. Why they've been so bad is that they don't have guys capable of playing with the opposition's best skaters. DDK correctly slotted on a middle pair is a good defenseman. DDK slotted to go against the Patrick Kanes of the world for 25 minutes a night is a disaster.

Z played most of the time on Datsyuk's wing. The Wings spent a lot of years trying to keep it that way. Crosby is the clear #1 in Pittsburgh. The only analogous situation would be Boston. Neither are top tier, but together they serve as a potent 1/2 punch.

Karlsson isn't even the #1 guy in San Jose. In 4-5 years he will be a better Mike Green. The only reason he's been considered top 10 is his scoring. The second that declines, he's out of the running as a true top guy. I wouldn't want a top pairing of Karlsson and DDK going against McDavid, or Matthews if I had to protect a lead with 1 minute left. And even less so when EK is 32 and his groin and ankle are that much worse.

 

[Shaman464]

So if the Red Wings were to acquire a core piece this offseason (Trouba or Karlsson) that will cause the rebuild to not succeed? Can you explain your logic? Of if that's not your point, why does it matter whether they acquire Karlsson/Trouba now or not?

The way I see it, the rebuild is going to fail or succeed on the backs of Veleno, Hronek, Zadina, Cholowski, #6 pick, etc. If those players live up to expectations, the Red Wings will be competitive. If those players don't live up to expectations, the Red Wings will not be competitive and the rebuild failed.

So either the prospects work out and the rebuild succeeds and the Wings already have Karlsson OR the prospects don't workout and the rebuild fails and Wings have Karlsson but now they have to start rebuilding all over again. So what's the problem exactly? It's just cap space (with Karlsson). And if Veleno and company don't work out, we're not going to need that cap space over the next 4-5 years anyways because we would be rebuilding again. No?

Trouba would be a bird of a different color. He's young. His development curve matches the core of the team better. Trade and sign him to 8 years and that contract gets most of his peak. Or 7 years in UFA. He's also much more of a defenseman. The reason why Karlsson is a bad idea is what I stated, his stats are showing that he is on the decline. He's now starting to get more injured. And he's going to be in his 30s for most of his contract. But, he still pushes the team up a few places in the standing. Meaning odds are they start drafting 10-14. But by the time the younger players (Zadina, Veleno, the #6 this year) would be ready to take major roles he's in his 30s, declining, and again we are looking at a bubble team. Look at this year's draft as an example. If you're trying to get a center, do you want to draft at 6th or 12th? Is it worth being a bubble team for a couple years, then pay for 5 years of progressively worse EK? Or is it better to build a good core, and make moves when the team is actually ready to compete? Because right now this team isn't one EK away from being anything more than a bubble team.

 

[obey86]

Trouba would be a bird of a different color. He's young. His development curve matches the core of the team better. Trade and sign him to 8 years and that contract gets most of his peak. Or 7 years in UFA. He's also much more of a defenseman. The reason why Karlsson is a bad idea is what I stated, his stats are showing that he is on the decline. He's now starting to get more injured. And he's going to be in his 30s for most of his contract. But, he still pushes the team up a few places in the standing. Meaning odds are they start drafting 10-14. But by the time the younger players (Zadina, Veleno, the #6 this year) would be ready to take major roles he's in his 30s, declining, and again we are looking at a bubble team. Look at this year's draft as an example. If you're trying to get a center, do you want to draft at 6th or 12th? Is it worth being a bubble team for a couple years, then pay for 5 years of progressively worse EK? Or is it better to build a good core, and make moves when the team is actually ready to compete? Because right now this team isn't one EK away from being anything more than a bubble team.

So you seem to be against signing Karlsson because of where he is as a player in his career (age/trajectory, injuries, cost, etc) rather than because it would be "too early" in the rebuild or whatever. Those are two entirely different reasons.

 

[Shaman464]

So you seem to be against signing Karlsson because of where he is as a player in his career (age/trajectory, injuries, cost, etc) rather than because it would be "too early" in the rebuild or whatever. Those are two entirely different reasons.

Its both, really. I think that signing Karlsson right now you're going to get ~2 years of good hockey from him, enough to push Detroit into a position to barely miss the playoffs. After that I think they will have nearly half a decade of a player that can't live up to his contract. So, to me, the most likely outcome is the worst of both worlds. They aren't good enough to make a meaningful playoff push, but not bad enough to get the right assets. And then that transitions into Karlsson not being nearly as good, and likely suffering from injuries more often, and taking up a significant amount of cap space for years on end.

 

[obey86]

Its both, really. I think that signing Karlsson right now you're going to get ~2 years of good hockey from him, enough to push Detroit into a position to barely miss the playoffs. After that I think they will have nearly half a decade of a player that can't live up to his contract. So, to me, the most likely outcome is the worst of both worlds. They aren't good enough to make a meaningful playoff push, but not bad enough to get the right assets. And then that transitions into Karlsson not being nearly as good, and likely suffering from injuries more often, and taking up a significant amount of cap space for years on end.

Fair enough, agree to disagree. Every FA signing of Karlsson's age has its inherent risks, but usually the truly elite players in the NHL can stay very productive until age 35 or so. That's why I would risk it.

 

[TCNorthstars]

I wonder if Suter wishes he had done things differently. Playing that close to home has to be nice, but he's never sniffed a Cup.

How do you know what he does in the locker room after playing 30 min a game?

 

[haulinbass]

Why do you want the rebuild to push for 10 years?

The fact that the Wings were able to produce talent out of the 2013 and 2014 and 2016 drafts when they were still making the playoffs grants them the ability to not be like Buffalo or Arizona in their rebuild. The Wings have a 1C, they have 3 or 4 quality top 6 forwards they were able to stash while drafting in the teens and twenties. They are probably drafting another one this year. They have 2 budding NHL defensemen from 2016; they have last years draft class which shows signs of producing out 4 prospects right off the bat who look like they are only 2 years or fewer from being NHL caliber players. At a certain point, you have to trust the groundwork you have laid. I know people have already mentioned it; if you don't trust the core you have now to go for the playoffs in the next 2 years, you should prepare to replace everyone in the current core.

If we can't plan ahead to compete in the playoffs in 2021, then what the **** is the point of any of this? When is the right time? When Larkin's contract is expiring and he's 27-28 years old, his contract is expiring and we are still drafting players 2 years away from being ready?

Patience is fine, complacency is a death sentence. You aren't preaching patience, you're preaching complacency.

Good luck dude, your plan will lead to us waisting years and then having to submit to the full rebuild you are trying to avoid.

You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. I'm done reexplaining the same things every week around here. Luckily we won't be signing Karlsson so this is certainly not something I need to worry about let alone argue on the Internet over.

But one quick question... What talent? Larkin? Because outside of Larkin we don't have any star players let alone a single elite player. We have a couple guys with potential to maybe be stars if we get extremely lucky and thats it. You think you win Stanley Cups with Mantha and AA as your 2nd and 3rd best forwards? Get a clue. If that was the case we wouldn't have finished 4th worst.

You keep drafting high until you end up with some of those players, then you consider free agency options to add to that. You don't take one of the worst teams in the league and hit free agency to become a contender. That is completely idiotic. NHL players can see how bad this roster is, that is why they will not come. You think you are going to convince Karlsson that if he comes here the Wings are a contender? NOPE, because they are not even with him.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Good luck dude, your plan will lead to us waisting years and then having to submit to the full rebuild you are trying to avoid.

You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. I'm done reexplaining the same things every week around here. Luckily we won't be signing Karlsson so this is certainly not something I need to worry about let alone argue on the Internet over.

But one quick question... What talent? Larkin? Because outside of Larkin we don't have any star players let alone a single elite player. We have a couple guys with potential to maybe be stars if we get extremely lucky and thats it. You think you win Stanley Cups with Mantha and AA as your 2nd and 3rd best forwards? Get a clue. If that was the case we wouldn't have finished 4th worst.

“This isn’t something I need to argue on the internet over”

*immediately leaves with a parting message attempting to insult someone*

Alright bud, I’m glad you don’t feel the need to “re-explain” your opinion anymore, because it wasn’t doing much for me anyways. Some of us have standards and expect the team to make an effort to improve, not let the work already done wither away into nothing while they sit around doing jack shit for the next 3-4 years, whenever you feel it’s appropriate to start doing something again.

 

[lomekian]

While it is incredibly unlikely to happen, if the Wings can sign Karlsson it would be madness not to (UNLESS there is concrete evidence to suggest major injury problems going forwards rather than the anecdotal variety banded about). The whole point of trying to garner high picks to hope that one or two might turn out as good as Karlsson if you are lucky. Even if he is not the player he was, he would still not only be the best D on the team by a distance, particularly on our anemic PP, but also is likely for sometime to be better than anyone we can draft with no supposed Dahlin's on the horizon. Same goes for Panarin. Signing great players in FA also frees you up to trade other assets to address weaknesses. Unless the signing falls off a cliff, you can always trade them easily enough down the line.

I agree there is no merit in chasing middle line FAs unless on 1 year deals to chase more draft picks at TDL, but anytime you get a shot at a top 30 player in their position in the NHL, if you have cap space, you at least make a pitch.

 

[haulinbass]

“This isn’t something I need to argue on the internet over”

*immediately leaves with a parting message attempting to insult someone*

Alright bud, I’m glad you don’t feel the need to “re-explain” your opinion anymore, because it wasn’t doing much for me anyways. Some of us have standards and expect the team to make an effort to improve, not let the work already done wither away into nothing while they sit around doing jack **** for the next 3-4 years, whenever you feel it’s appropriate to start doing something again.

Rebuilding is making the effort to improve. You don't believe in taking the time to do something right the first time? Your approach is literally not even possible, thats how terrible of an idea it is. Why are you even sitting here talking about something that is not possible?

You rebuild through the draft and be patient, just like our GM indicted in the post-season interview a week or so back. This is the same approach nearly every GM takes, you know the professionals? Why is that? Is it because your idea is more effective? Why don't they all just follow your plan if the chances of success are better than rebuilding through the draft with high picks?

People always want to argue that you don't need to be bad and draft high. There is so few examples of this working out and even in the cases they did work out alright there are other factors involved such as luck and timing. You don't land star/elite free agents being as bad as the Wings are right now, you can't make trades for star/elite players unless you not only have the assets to make the trade but can also afford to spare those assets without doing to much damage to the team. Do you realize how expensive a star/elite player that actually has decent term on their contract? If there is no term then there is no guarantee they extend and your playing with fire. Wings are not in position to do these things. Therefore, all you can do is wait and draft high. If we are lucky enough and some of players we drafted meet or exceed expectations over the next 2-3+ years, then MAYBE we can do something. Until then this isn't even debatable.

On top of this... How many UFA signings don't come back to haunt the team in a few years? EK is going to be 29. You want to pay a 29 year old 11 mill for 7 years to be your answer to carry a young team? You only do that kind of shit when EK can put your team over the top and give you a nice window for 2-4 years. In that time you do everything you can do to win and deal with the consequences later. Lets just pick an age in say 33, EK will be 33 in 4 years. How many players in the league at 33 would you want to be paying 10+ for? Considering we had EK and all our prospects panned out (which won't happen), this team would still need 2+ years to mature and develop. How can't you see how silly your idea is? You don't sign and trade elite players, and in a few years he will be a cap dump. Not saying he won't be a good hockey player still, but nobody will want him at his cap.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Rebuilding is making the effort to improve. You don't believe in taking the time to do something right the first time? Your approach is literally not even possible, thats how terrible of an idea it is. Why are you even sitting here talking about something that is not possible?

You rebuild through the draft and be patient, just like our GM indicted in the post-season interview a week or so back. This is the same approach nearly every GM takes, you know the professionals? Why is that? Is it because your idea is more effective? Why don't they all just follow your plan if the chances of success are better than rebuilding through the draft with high picks?

People always want to argue that you don't need to be bad and draft high. There is so few examples of this working out and even in the cases they did work out alright there are other factors involved such as luck and timing. You don't land star/elite free agents being as bad as the Wings are right now, you can't make trades for star/elite players unless you not only have the assets to make the trade but can also afford to spare those assets without doing to much damage to the team. Do you realize how expensive a star/elite player that actually has decent term on their contract? If there is no term then there is no guarantee they extend and your playing with fire. Wings are not in position to do these things. Therefore, all you can do is wait and draft high. If we are lucky enough and some of players we drafted meet or exceed expectations over the next 2-3+ years, then MAYBE we can do something. Until then this isn't even debatable.

On top of this... How many UFA signings don't come back to haunt the team in a few years? EK is going to be 29. You want to pay a 29 year old 11 mill for 7 years to be your answer to carry a young team? You only do that kind of **** when EK can put your team over the top and give you a nice window for 2-4 years. In that time you do everything you can do to win and deal with the consequences later. Lets just pick an age in say 33, EK will be 33 in 4 years. How many players in the league at 33 would you want to be paying 10+ for? Considering we had EK and all our prospects panned out (which won't happen), this team would still need 2+ years to mature and develop. How can't you see how silly your idea is? You don't sign and trade elite players, and in a few years he will be a cap dump. Not saying he won't be a good hockey player still, but nobody will want him at his cap.

My approach isn’t possible? I have zero f***ing clue what you’re rambling on about, so please tell me what you think my approach is. And the tell me why it’s not possible. I don’t want to hear why it’s not probable. I don’t want to hear why it’s not recommended. I want you to tell me why it’s not possible.

I think you’ve just gotten a little lost in your assumption as to what people are proposing.

 

[haulinbass]

My approach isn’t possible? I have zero ****ing clue what you’re rambling on about, so please tell me what you think my approach is. And the tell me why it’s not possible. I don’t want to hear why it’s not probable. I don’t want to hear why it’s not recommended. I want you to tell me why it’s not possible.

I think you’ve just gotten a little lost in your assumption as to what people are proposing.

I figured you would take quality points as rambling. Here are your words:

but if you land a Karlsson and position yourself for Trouba the following year, you are shaving time off the rebuild.

You are suggesting signing Erik Karlsson and other free agents is a good idea, you are also suggesting it will shave time off our rebuild.

I am suggesting signing Erik Karlsson and other free agents is not a good idea at this stage (this stage means the window you are clearly referring to) and I'm arguing that it will not shave time off our rebuild and will likely prolong it. Furthermore I also bring up the fact that the Red Wings cannot sign Erik Karlsson. Erik Karlsson will not sign with a team who finished 4th from last. That is why its not "possible."

Pretty simple to understand..... For most people anyway. Do you still need my assistance or do you got it from here bud? I would have to say my responses here are very direct and on point.

Now just stop embarrassing yourself. There is playoff hockey on right now.