Speculation: What to do about Toby?

[garret9]

I do; that would in fact be why I said this earlier in the thread...



Given that the thread is about Enstrom though, I chose to address him specifically. See how that works?

When the topic has been about Burmistrov or Enstrom you have been shaking the pom-poms "for" quite vigorously, but when the topic has come up about moving Byfuglien or Kane you have been adamantly "opposed".

It's probably contextual and situational, as in you didn't see the price that you thought appropriate at the time... But you can see how some could potentially come to that conclusion.

 

[sully1410]

I do; that would be why I said this earlier in the thread...



Given that the thread is about Enstrom though, I chose to address him specifically. See how that works?

So by your logic...they should move the whole team then? They have all been part of a losing culture...move enough guys you can get that #1C we need.

Toby fills a need right now, which is a top pairing defender. You drop him...we don't have another one that can replace him. Essentially what you have done is fill one hole by creating another. Luckily, our GM does not agree with you.

And while we may be fine without Toby for short stretches, or even the regular season where you seldom play the same team close together....we would get eaten alive in the playoffs without him.

Another player Id like to
Mention in the same breath here is Ryan Kesler. There is no doubt in anybody's mind that they would be fine for the regular season and be screwed for the post season.

You want to build the strongest possible team...and you don't do that by trading away your only Left side top pairing D.

You see how that works?

 

[Gump Hasek]

So by your logic...they should move the whole team then? They have all been part of a losing culture...move enough guys you can get that #1C we need.

Toby fills a need right now, which is a top pairing defender. You drop him...we don't have another one that can replace him. Essentially what you have done is fill one hole by creating another. Luckily, our GM does not agree with you.

There you go extrapolating again. I didn't suggest moving the entire team but rather was suggesting moving a valuable piece or two in order to fill holes elsewhere. All our GM did was sign him to a contract; it does not mean by extension he agrees with your viewpoint or disagrees with mine, nor does it mean that he would be averse to eventually moving the player in order to fill other needs.

I'm pretty sure where we differ is that you might perhaps think this roster to be better than do I. In my view it is a weak team pretty much right across the board, they've three or four forwards and a weird mix on D, and suffer from fairly pedestrian goaltending. Since I believe they are several years away from true contention, I'm open to moving whatever it takes to solidify a very weak overall group and am only attached to just a few players as such.

 

[EpicGingy]

Considering our supreme lack of LHD's, and the fact that I like Enstrom, what he brings to the team.

If we were to move any of our defensemen, it would be any of our RHD's in the sytem excluding Bogosian and Trouba unless we got a pretty smoking good deal for them (in other words: OVERPAYMENT). You don't plug one hole by making another, and trading Enstrom only creates another hole, unless we somehow got a serviceable LHD and a top 6 scorer in the process of trading him.

The fact that we've won more without him than with him is nothing more than a curious stat, and doesn't reflect the very good individual stats he had been putting up for years.

If he continues to be injury prone next year, then I say we should probably trade him. We need a body that's there consistently who also happens to be better than whoever replaces Enstrom when he's out.

 

[sully1410]

There you go extrapolating again. I didn't suggest moving the entire team but rather was suggesting moving a valuable piece or two in order to fill holes elsewhere. All our GM did was sign him to a contract; it does not mean by extension he agrees with your viewpoint or disagrees with mine, nor does it mean that he would be averse to eventually moving the player in order to fill other needs.

I'm pretty sure where we differ is that you might perhaps think this roster to be better than do I. In my view it is a weak team pretty much right across the board, they've three or four forwards and a weird mix on D, and suffer from fairly pedestrian goaltending. Since I believe they are several years away from true contention, I'm open to moving whatever it takes to solidify a very weak overall group and am only attached to just a few players as such.

Well seeing as how our GM signed him to a contract with a full NMC, it does mean that he doesn't think moving our only top pairing defensman on the left side is not a good move and not how you build a hockey team. And by moving this valuable piece, you create another hole on the roster, this rendering it incomplete regardless.

I do believe that there is talent on this team, it's probably a few years from making the cup...but I don't think it's that far away from being a dangerous team.

Yes, there is some work to be done...but I highly doubt trading a valuable piece or two, when we really don't have that many to begin with, is the way to do it.

 

[Jet]

Ya know what good teams do, deal away their best player in a position that they're weak on..

Enstrom is absolutely not our best player. I disagree that we are weak on defense either. Stats say otherwise. Besides we have a lot of D developing into roles.

I'm not advocating trading Enstrom. I'm just arguing against your post.

EDIT: Reading further I see you meant specifically his side defense. I misunderstood your original post, apologies.

 

[Rheged]

Enstrom is absolutely not our best player. I disagree that we are weak on defense either. Stats say otherwise. Besides we have a lot of D developing into roles.

I'm not advocating trading Enstrom. I'm just arguing against your post.

Sorry, meant left handed defense, and that Enstrom was best at that position.

Should have been more clear.

 

[garret9]

Enstrom is absolutely not our best player. I disagree that we are weak on defense either. Stats say otherwise. Besides we have a lot of D developing into roles.

I'm not advocating trading Enstrom. I'm just arguing against your post.

I think he may mean LHD...

The competition would be:
Enstrom
Hainsey (UFA)
Clitsome (UFA)
Stuart
Meech (UFA)
Melchiori


... I'd give that pretty easily to him... and all our D overall it is at least debatable.

EDIT: He beat me to it

Post-Edit Edit: I see we're all editing here

 

[Aries56]

No way you trade Enstrom. Especially not before he gets a chance to prove himself in the West next year. This year's schedule has been hectic.. especially for the Jets (thanks again Bettman/Fehr). It's taking it's toll on the players all around the league.

Enstrom's a special player, give him an off season to recover, and he'll be fine moving forward.

 

[Jet]

Sorry, meant left handed defense, and that Enstrom was best at that position.

Should have been more clear.

I think he may mean LHD...

The competition would be:
Enstrom
Hainsey (UFA)
Clitsome (UFA)
Stuart
Meech (UFA)
Melchiori


... I'd give that pretty easily to him... and all our D overall it is at least debatable.

EDIT: He beat me to it

Post-Edit Edit: I see we're all editing here

It's a good ol fashioned editing party!!! This is why I try and read through before responding, but I'm afraid I'll forget.

 

[ps241]

very intense debate.

Toby like Pavs, Hainsey, Burmi, Kane, Antro, and Olli seem to be a lightning rod for debate......oh wait......we all agree on Olli so scrap him

I am in the camp that feels we are better with Toby in the lineup (W-L record aside) than without him and I am very concerned about our LHD depth when Ron leaves. I like big teams but I don't have any issues with a mix of skill and size. Stevens and Rafalski were one my favorite D pairs and Brian struck fear in no man but the tandem forced you to keep your head up and they complimented each other very well. Maybe Toby-Trouba at some point?

That being said Toby "use to be injury free" and now he's not. They have to get this right because he now has a bulls eye painted on his back (or should I say shoulder) by other teams saying "fragile" and if he remains injury prone we are in trouble and we can't have a guy tied into $5.75 million a year for the next 5 years being in and out of the lineup. Last season he took the hit and lost 20 games but bounced back. This year he has missed 26 of 48 games with two different injuries and they appear to both be in the shoulder area (at least the one was). Does anyone here feel good about being able to count on Toby next season?

My hopes are that Toby gets whatever he needs done to find his health including shoulder surgery if that’s what it takes so he gets back to being a guy we can count on to be in the lineup playing the skill game. If so great….if not then we need to dump the salary and move on.

edit: just editing to keep up with you guys

 

[Duke749]

To be fair ps241, he would be a absolute warrior to not miss time from that Ott hit. Never seen him get hit or hit the boards that hard. But the other things you are correct on.

 

[ps241]

To be fair ps241, he would be a absolute warrior to not miss time from that Ott hit. Never seen him get hit or hit the boards that hard. But the other things you are correct on.

Yea that was a crushing hit Duke.....perhaps Buff caught the license plate number

 

[Duke749]

Yea that was a crushing hit Duke.....perhaps Buff caught the license plate number

Almost positive Hainsey did later on when that small truck reappeared. lol

 

[Bob E]

very intense debate.

Toby like Pavs, Hainsey, Burmi, Kane, Antro, and Olli seem to be a lightning rod for debate......oh wait......we all agree on Olli so scrap him

I am in the camp that feels we are better with Toby in the lineup (W-L record aside) than without him and I am very concerned about our LHD depth when Ron leaves. I like big teams but I don't have any issues with a mix of skill and size. Stevens and Rafalski were one my favorite D pairs and Brian struck fear in no man but the tandem forced you to keep your head up and they complimented each other very well. Maybe Toby-Trouba at some point?

That being said Toby "use to be injury free" and now he's not. They have to get this right because he now has a bulls eye painted on his back (or should I say shoulder) by other teams saying "fragile" and if he remains injury prone we are in trouble and we can't have a guy tied into $5.75 million a year for the next 5 years being in and out of the lineup. Last season he took the hit and lost 20 games but bounced back. This year he has missed 26 of 48 games with two different injuries and they appear to both be in the shoulder area (at least the one was). Does anyone here feel good about being able to count on Toby next season?

My hopes are that Toby gets whatever he needs done to find his health including shoulder surgery if that’s what it takes so he gets back to being a guy we can count on to be in the lineup playing the skill game. If so great….if not then we need to dump the salary and move on.

edit: just editing to keep up with you guys

I like the Toby-Trouba pairing too PS, lots of pros to that pairing.

I think Bogo would do better with a more defensive partner, that allows him to step into the play a bit more. We've seen a glimpse of his offensive game that past few games, especially his goal against the Isles. Beauty.

 

[GoldenJet89]

my problem with trading either buff or toby has always been... what do we have to replace it NOW

trouba should be a great player, but its unrealistic to expect him to be that next season...

redmond has potential, but he was far from consistent when in the lineup, now has had a setback...

postma i think is a great 3rd pairing/PP guy... wouldnt want him with top 4 minutes..

we have no idea how Kulda will fare

hainsey might not resign, stuart and meech are also best suited on the third pairing


theres not enough depth at the moment IMO to consider trading toby or buff... maybe in a year or something if guys like trouba/kulda/redmond have proven capable of big minutes... but until then no way

 

[sully1410]

my problem with trading either buff or toby has always been... what do we have to replace it NOW

trouba should be a great player, but its unrealistic to expect him to be that next season...

redmond has potential, but he was far from consistent when in the lineup, now has had a setback...

postma i think is a great 3rd pairing/PP guy... wouldnt want him with top 4 minutes..

we have no idea how Kulda will fare

hainsey might not resign, stuart and meech are also best suited on the third pairing


theres not enough depth at the moment IMO to consider trading toby or buff... maybe in a year or something if guys like trouba/kulda/redmond have proven capable of big minutes... but until then no way

Far from consistent? What are you talking about? He immediately stepped into the top four playing over 20 minutes a night. He looked great until he got hurt.

He's not going to be a top pairing defensman by any means, but he did a lot of things right. The only mistakes that he made were simple rookie mistakes.

 

[sipowicz]

Far from consistent? What are you talking about? He immediately stepped into the top four playing over 20 minutes a night. He looked great until he got hurt.

He's not going to be a top pairing defensman by any means, but he did a lot of things right. The only mistakes that he made were simple rookie mistakes.

Redmond was weak in the final 5-6 games he played for the Jets. I'm not down on the guy that's just the way it was. He had played some real good hockey before that and in some games looked like a vet.

Some of you guys fail to remember he was a healthy scratch even after his good play when he, Postma and Clitsome shifted in and out of the lineup.

 

[sully1410]

Redmond was weak in the final 5-6 games he played for the Jets. I'm not down on the guy that's just the way it was. He had played some real good hockey before that and in some games looked like a vet.

I must have missed that I guess?

 

[Grind]

Redmond was weak in the final 5-6 games he played for the Jets. I'm not down on the guy that's just the way it was. He had played some real good hockey before that and in some games looked like a vet.

Some of you guys fail to remember he was a healthy scratch even after his good play when he, Postma and Clitsome shifted in and out of the lineup.

Agreed sip. I'd say Redmond looked themost promising but he certainly wasn't cementing himself in our top four after his first few games.

Im still not penciling him above the bottom pairing

 

[Huffer]

I don't think Redmond was a guaranteed "top 4" guy when he was injured, in his last 5 games the least amount he played was 16:17, and the most was 24:04.

I think he was a 4-6 tweener at the point of injury, but I did like his overall game more than Postmas.

 

[toddism]

toby has had 2 tough years

I'm as big a fan of Toby as there is, and when he's in the lineup he's a fantastic hockey player. But here are 2 problems moving forward next season I see:
1) He's injured a lot
2) He's small and we're going to a tougher and more physical western conference.

Do we keep the man here and hope he stays healthy and can be effective next season out west or do we cash out while we can and maybe see if we can milk a high draft pick from someone this off season?

I honestly couldn't answer this question myself and think it warrants a debate.

Games Played.....

2007–08 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 82
2008–09 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 82
2009–10 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 82
2010-11 Atlanta Thrashers NHL 72

He's solid. Keep him.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

Toby too expensive

I don't agree with paying a 175 lb, 5' 9" nhl defenseman $5.75m. Crazy. Avg nhl defenseman is almost 6'2", 210 now. Plus aside from his size, he is not really that good. He is getting manhandled in the corners. Many of his points historically are on the power play so his production stats are misleading. If the Jets want to trade him, they will be stuck paying 1/4 to 1/2 his salary. So as much as I don't like it, I think the Jets are stuck with him.

 

[King Woodballs]

I don't agree with paying a 175 lb, 5' 9" nhl defenseman $5.75m. Crazy. Avg nhl defenseman is almost 6'2", 210 now. Plus aside from his size, he is not really that good. He is getting manhandled in the corners. Many of his points historically are on the power play so his production stats are misleading. If the Jets want to trade him, they will be stuck paying 1/4 to 1/2 his salary. So as much as I don't like it, I think the Jets are stuck with him.

I agree
And prepare to get **** all over

 

[Howard Chuck]

Old thread alert!

I've never been a big fan of Toby's. I think he's pretty good, but not the d-god-like status some here give him.

I'm ready..... go!