Rumor: What the trade for JK could have looked like...

[sampollock]

having the 1st is good... but we still have Timmins pulling the name out of his hat

 

[Jesker]

I'm not the biggest Bergevin fan but on the Kotkaniemi thing I just can't blame him. The end result sucks, no one wants to see a top prospect go, but the circumstances around it I just can't blame him... Never thought someone would give him that kind of money and he had to react, which he did in a okay manner. At least, even if Kotkaniemi is extended to a cap friendly deal after this season, I feel like the 6.1M will still hurt them a bit if they go all in this year and can't add all the pieces they will want.

I'm more concerned that we lost Mete for absolutely nothing (love him or not he would help the team right now), and that we didn't flip Danault and Tatar for picks or prospects ; to me, not farfetched to imagine that they wouldn't want to resign here at the end of the season especially if Danault denied a 5M offer. But then yeah, no trip to the Cup, maybe.

All the little moves Bergevin makes, he can actually defend himself on the reasoning, and I give him that. But after all those years there is starting to have the feeling of not enough results and positives on all those decisions. We're still lacking a very good defender IMO, especially on the left side.

Back to Kotka ; I really believe I would of done the same thing for that situation and I can't blame him. Couldn't know Carolina would pull this off ; they even admitted that having signed Hamilton, they couldn't do that offer sheet, so it's really bad circumstances all over.

Kotka wasn't the only RFA draging this summer ; and to a point, was not the only young good player traded this offseason. Nolan Patrick was flipped for Cody Glass, Kravtsov wants out ; I feel we will see this happening more and more. Sucks but move on.

 

[Heffyhoof]

If the Habs refused a first + third + B prospect, than MB needs to get canned. I don't buy this, the picks were likely a second and third. The Habs needed a first to acquire Dvo, which would make sense why they refused.

But Dvorak isn't even that good so it really doesn't make sense.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

I'll repeat...SAME than what the offer sheet gave us. For the Canes, one of Bokk/Suzuki/Gunler or Rees was coming to Montreal in order for them to NOT overpay for JK. And maybe have to still overpay him once this present year is done.

God damn...

Rees has been doing well, too

 

[MrNasty]

From the same article:

"Had that happened, the Canadiens could have worked out a deal with the Arizona Coyotes to flip that first-round pick for Christian Dvorak, which is ultimately what happened anyway. Except the leverage dynamic in that trade would have been far different without an offer sheet having over Montreal’s head, and the Canadiens likely could have avoided having to concede to the pick swap arrangement that ultimately wound up being part of the deal. They instead could have simply included Carolina’s first-round pick in the deal with no conditions attached, and Coyotes GM Bill Armstrong likely would have been thrilled."

This article has a lot of "could have" and "likely" statements. Which means a picture is being painted that is purely speculative. Godin should leave the speculating to us rather than trying to lure us into his thinking and making it sound like fact.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

But Dvorak isn't even that good so it really doesn't make sense.

It's too early to say Dvo isn't that good. I like him.

 

[CauZuki]

Probably not that high. Maybe a 2nd and a 4th + a prospect. Maybe ? The prospect was the key piece.

Bringing together the Suzuki bros could have been really nice.

 

[malcb33]

This article has a lot of "could have" and "likely" statements. Which means a picture is being painted that is purely speculative. Godin should leave the speculating to us rather than trying to lure us into his thinking and making it sound like fact.

Agreed! I'm not a huge Bergy fan by any means, but this piece uses speculation to make the situation look worse in hindsight, which Bergy didn't have the benefit of. I strongly doubt Waddell said, take our 1st, 3rd and Rees (for example) otherwise we'll offer sheet KK. I doubt they even offered Rees and a 1st, more like Rees and a 2nd, and Bergy knew he was unlikely to flip that return into a 2C.

 

[le_sean]

But Dvorak isn't even that good so it really doesn't make sense.

I mean he’s currently our best centre by far. I’d hate to imagine this team without him.

 

[Heffyhoof]

So because it dunks on the Canes and make the Habs look good, we believe the scenario that the Canes preferred to sign a 1 year, $6.1mil deal with a potentially nasty qualifying offer and pay the compensation, instead of offering the compensation and an extra piece as enticement? Already read through some essays trying to pretend that it's foolish to even consider the Canes might have thought to add an extra piece.

 

[1909]

Another Carolina's move (leak) to make Habs' look bad.

 

[cphabs]

How about the Danault trade? We let a 5M+ center walk…

 

[Doc McKenna]

This is clearly BS coming from Carolina to justify the offersheet.

Why? We already know it WAS reported a long time ago the carolina had been in negotiation for him and it was close to the offer sheet. Rumour or not it acvtually follows what we knew even before the article was written. But sure don't believe it because MB can do no wrong

 

[Rapala]

Dvo should had been acquired earlier at the draft for the first Habs pick which turn out to be Mailloux. Less headaches for everyona and a center to replace Danault. Then you can get Bokk or Suzuki + maybe a second rounder and a later pick.

This is the truth of it regardless of what transpired after the fact. We needed Dvac even with KK still in place. How could our GM possibly think we would thrive with that C group minus Danault.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Why? We already know it WAS reported a long time ago the carolina had been in negotiation for him and it was close to the offer sheet. Rumour or not it actually follows what we knew even before the article was written. But sure don't believe it because MB can do no wrong

Trade talks were conveniently reported after it was looking more and more like Bergevin wouldn't match the days following the OS, not before.

And my post has nothing to do with Bergevin and more with the fact that I have a hard picturing Carolina going hard after KK considering their depth, youth and talent at the same position and KK's overall crapiness as a hockey player. Then there's Wadell pathetic conference video...

If you want to believe the spin, feel free.

 

[Skip Bayless]

This article has a lot of "could have" and "likely" statements. Which means a picture is being painted that is purely speculative. Godin should leave the speculating to us rather than trying to lure us into his thinking and making it sound like fact.

If the habs were 5-0, shit like this wouldn't see the light of day.

 

[Habs Icing]

having the 1st is good... but we still have Timmins pulling the name out of his hat

Name out of a hat? So he stopped using the blindfold and the darts? I guess after 18 years he figured he should do something different.

 

[Habs Icing]

I'll repost the link and will translate it.

Le Calepin du Canadien: L'importance du tour du chapeau de Mathieu Perreault, d'où viennent les ennuis de l'attaque à cinq, et plus

One thing is clear, the Canes would have prefereed not to sign that contract with JK. and that a trade would have been much better. That's why the Canes tried numerous times to do a deal with the Habs after having informed then of their intent to offert sheet JK.

The basis of the deal was obviously the 1st and the 3rd round picks that would be going back to Montreal. But the Canes were also ready to offer a bonus to the Habs if it would have made it possible NOT to offer sheet.

The tries from Waddell to make a deal before the offer sheet are well documented. Our understanding of the situation is that Waddell had offered the 2 draft picks AND another pick OR for the Habs to select one of Bokk, Suzuki, GUnler or Rees.

The Habs said no.

At first glance, if you remove the offer sheet otu of the equation, the Canes offer wasn't equitable for JK. But the offer sheet was an important part of the eaquation. And by rejecting the offer, the Habs decided to play poker with them, either they had decided that it was preferable for them to see the Canes pick up a big salary rather than adding a good prospect in our pool.

BUt let's think what could have happened if they would have accepted the deal. The Habs could have made the deal with the Coyotes and send the 1st rounder in Arizona for Dvorak. But the dynamics would have been diffrent cause instead of having to come to agreement with an inversion of picks, they just would have offered The Canes 1st rounder and Armstrong would have been glad to do it. ON top of it, there would have been an additional pick in the draft OR another prospect in the Habs system.

By rejecting the offer, the Habs challenged the Canes to pay JK 6.1M$ this season. The idea was to NOT fall for the bluff. It wasn't one.

Une hypothèse de ce qui aurait pu se passer avec l’offre hostile de Kotkaniemi

Une chose est claire : les Hurricanes auraient préféré ne pas signer ce contrat avec Kotkaniemi, et que de leur point de vue, un échange aurait été de loin préférable. C’est pourquoi les Hurricanes ont tenté à plusieurs reprises de trouver un arrangement avec le Canadien après les avoir informés de leur intention de déposer une offre hostile à Kotkaniemi.
La base des pourparlers était évidemment les choix de première et de troisième rondes qui passeraient dans le camp du Canadien en guise de compensation advenant une offre hostile. Mais les Hurricanes étaient prêts à offrir un bonus au Canadien si cela leur permettait d’éviter l’offre hostile.
Les tentatives du directeur général des Hurricanes, Don Waddell, de conclure un échange avant de compléter l’offre hostile ont été bien documentées. Notre compréhension des choses, c’est que l’offre portait sur les deux choix de repêchage en plus d’un choix supplémentaire, ou bien la possibilité pour le Canadien de choisir un espoir de son choix – autre que Seth Jarvis – à ajouter à la transaction. Cela signifierait qu’un espoir comme Dominik Bokk, Ryan Suzuki, Noel Gunler ou Jamieson Rees aurait pu être ajouté à la transaction.
Le Canadien a dit non.
À première vue, si vous ôtez l’offre hostile de l’équation, l’offre des Hurricanes n’était pas équitable pour Kotkaniemi. Mais l’offre hostile était une part importante de l’équation, et en rejetant l’offre de transaction, soit que le Canadien s’engageait dans une grosse partie de poker, soit qu’il avait décidé qu’il était plus intéressant d’alourdir les Hurricanes de ce contrat plutôt que d’ajouter un espoir honnête à sa pépinière.
Mais faisons des hypothèses sur ce qui aurait pu se passer s’il avait accepté l’échange.
Si cela s’était produit, le Canadien aurait pu conclure un échange avec les Coyotes pour envoyer ce choix de premier tour en Arizona en retour de Christian Dvorak, ce qui est finalement arrivé de toute façon. Mais la dynamique de l’échange aurait été bien différente et le Canadien aurait probablement pu éviter d’avoir à s’entendre sur une inversion de choix comme ça a finalement été le cas. Les deux formations auraient pu simplement inclure le choix de premier tour de la Caroline dans la transaction, sans aucune condition, et le directeur général des Coyotes, Bill Armstrong, aurait probablement été ravi.
En plus de cela, il y aurait un choix supplémentaire au repêchage ou alors un autre espoir dans le système du Canadien.
En rejetant cette offre, le CH a essentiellement mis les Hurricanes au défi de payer 6,1 millions $ à Kotkaniemi cette saison. C’était refuser de succomber à ce qu’il devait percevoir comme un bluff.
Ce n’en était pas un.

Thanks.
I think Godin has fallen for some major league BS being shoveled in his direction by the Canes.
I find it hard to believe that the Canes had such a hard-on for KK when the center position is their strongest and then are willing to move their huge acquisition to the wing on the 3rd line. Naw, I think Godin's bullshit meter was in the shop when he was told this story.

 

[Archijerej]

Complete speculation. We are talking about a 25 year old 2C with a great contract that they had no reason to trade right away. One that can play in any situation and is great at faceoffs. The price was the price, it wasn’t moving. Lots of teams would have wanted him, including our rival Bruins who have a big hole at centre. If he could have been had for a lower pick, we wouldn’t have Mailloux.

Yeah. I didn't think Dvorak could have been had for a late 1st.

 

[Whitesnake]

Thanks.
I think Godin has fallen for some major league BS being shoveled in his direction by the Canes.
I find it hard to believe that the Canes had such a hard-on for KK when the center position is their strongest and then are willing to move their huge acquisition to the wing on the 3rd line. Naw, I think Godin's bullshit meter was in the shop when he was told this story.

Strange that the Canes would tell him and tell those 4 prospects that they were more willing to part with them than to sign JK.....Also...what if they saw him as a winger? You know...the position he played in the Liiga when he racked all that stats? He's still 21, who says that he has already stopped progressing?

 

[Whitesnake]

Yeah. I didn't think Dvorak could cbe had for a late 1st.

Not sure what that means. The deal is the more favorable of the 2 picks if neither is in the top 10 pick. If we stay where we thought we'd be...they will STILL get the pick from the Canes.

 

[Whitesnake]

Thanks.
I think Godin has fallen for some major league BS being shoveled in his direction by the Canes.
I find it hard to believe that the Canes had such a hard-on for KK when the center position is their strongest and then are willing to move their huge acquisition to the wing on the 3rd line. Naw, I think Godin's bullshit meter was in the shop when he was told this story.

Also...don't we all agree that there were trade talks? If so...can somebody tell me this....the article states that Waddell had told Bergie that he was going to offer sheet JK. Which means that by that account knew that a 1st and a 3rd was coming his way no matter what. So....why would Waddell offer LESS or the SAME if for Bergie he knew that this was the return he'd get anyway AND it would screw the Canes of 6,1M$? It's CLEAR that the Canes offered more.

Now...if your point is that sure they did, but they surely didn't offer those kinds of prospects...well that belongs to Godin and his story. Personnally, I think it's possible based on the fact that I don't think we're talking about top end prospects. And I think that Waddell might have very hope to NOT go in overpayment territory and be ready to part ways with one of those guys. I mean...if Rees leaves your organization, you still have Suzuki, Gunler and all the rest of those prospects. Canes are rich in prospects.

 

[DAChampion]

Are any of those prospects good?

 

[Doc McKenna]

Are any of those prospects good?

Not really and they dont have to be. Given our lack of nhl ready prospects its a low offer for a low bar to get over. So if the prospect looks like a 6-7 dman its still a decent stop gap so you dont have to go out and sign several over the hill dmen to fill those spots. esp cap wise.

But i doubt he thought the offer sheet would come through, or maybe bergie felt loyalty would trump dollars and kk would stay a hab... hilariously.

 

[DAChampion]

Not really and they dont have to be. Given our lack of nhl ready prospects its a low offer for a low bar to get over. So if the prospect looks like a 6-7 dman its still a decent stop gap so you dont have to go out and sign several over the hill dmen to fill those spots. esp cap wise.

But i doubt he thought the offer sheet would come through, or maybe bergie felt loyalty would trump dollars and kk would stay a hab... hilariously.

If you want loyalty, buy a dog.