Rumor: What the trade for JK could have looked like...

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Whalers Fan

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Sep 24, 2012
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THey did, first round pick over Suzuki + first + second. Ya they lost him for almost nothing vs what they could have had.
As mentioned elsewhere, the Habs were never offered a 1st + 2nd + prospect. The rumors were a 1st + 3rd + B prospect, so all they gave up by not agreeing to a trade was a B prospect (if you believe the reports). Regardless, the team did not lose KK for nothing, as you stated.
 

Archijerej

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From the same article:

"Had that happened, the Canadiens could have worked out a deal with the Arizona Coyotes to flip that first-round pick for Christian Dvorak, which is ultimately what happened anyway. Except the leverage dynamic in that trade would have been far different without an offer sheet having over Montreal’s head, and the Canadiens likely could have avoided having to concede to the pick swap arrangement that ultimately wound up being part of the deal. They instead could have simply included Carolina’s first-round pick in the deal with no conditions attached, and Coyotes GM Bill Armstrong likely would have been thrilled."
 

Sterling Archer

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Sep 26, 2006
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Comes down to what Arizona was okay with. Considering KK leaving meant a trade with DVo coming back, the best option was what Arizona wanted. And considering we got DVo and a pick plus the better pick if it’s in the top 10, we theoretically got the best deal we could’ve.
 
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CHfan1

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Apr 23, 2012
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From the same article:

"Had that happened, the Canadiens could have worked out a deal with the Arizona Coyotes to flip that first-round pick for Christian Dvorak, which is ultimately what happened anyway. Except the leverage dynamic in that trade would have been far different without an offer sheet having over Montreal’s head, and the Canadiens likely could have avoided having to concede to the pick swap arrangement that ultimately wound up being part of the deal. They instead could have simply included Carolina’s first-round pick in the deal with no conditions attached, and Coyotes GM Bill Armstrong likely would have been thrilled."

That makes it worse. The risk with the Dvorak trade is the Habs finish just outside the bottom ten and have to give up their pick. I fully expect (just like I did in the off-season) that Carolina will finish higher in the standings than Montreal. If the trade was just for Carolina’s 1st it would have been better, IMO.
 
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Theodore450

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This is good news. Rather have the pick and get Dvorak than have no C for the season and some secondary prospects
 

1909

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He refuses probably because those picks weren’t a 1st. I’d rather have a first.

Possibly one of the 4 prospects listed in post #1 + a 2nd and maybe a 3rd. Bokk and Suzuki are not sure NHL players.
 

Wats

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Mar 8, 2006
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Ok I understand that...i'm just telling you the way I see it, not sure it makes much sense.

the 6.1M was more of an issue for the Habs than it was/is for the Canes.

Again, just using logic.

If the Canes knew that the ultimate offer was going to be 6.1M offer sheet at 1st + 3rd compensation...why would you go into a trade negotiation offering more?

The Canes knew what their "final" offer was going to be, it only make sense that they attempted to get Kotkaniemi at a lesser cost (in assets).

Maybe they were willing to pay from a surplus to not have to deal with headache that will follow if Kotkaniemi decides not to be loyal.

KK can put up a decent season ~30 points and simply sign their arbitration reduced qualifying offer at 5-6M. If Canes don't want to offer the QO, they risk having him walk as UFA and go to a team/city he wants/best offer...even back to Montreal.

I think you're underestimating how much of a hassle having Kotkaniemi at a 6.1M QO will be next off season. Having him at a regular contract situation + perhaps with lottery protection on 1st may very well be worth giving up one of their many decent forward prospects. It wouldn't surprise me to see them peddle Ryan Suzuki as a sweetner with their 1st and Bergevin not want a low 1st and a B prospect.

Flip the situation it'd be hypothetically giving up Poehling and a lottery protected 1st to get Necas (say coming off 35 point season) while threatening that we'd offersheet otherwise vs giving him a offersheet, keeping Poehling, and dealing with non-protected picks/bad contract.
 
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Habs Icing

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Le calepin du Canadien: Pourquoi le tour du chapeau de Mathieu Perreault est important, d'où viennent les ennuis de l'attaque à cinq, et plus

2 picks + 1 prospect not named Seth Jarvis like Bokk, Suzuki, Gunler or Rees in order to not overpay for JK.

Habs said no. They prefer seeing them overpay than adding a prospect.

Les tentatives du directeur général des Hurricanes, Don Waddell, de conclure un échange avant de compléter l’offre hostile ont été bien documentées. Notre compréhension des choses, c’est que l’offre portait sur les deux choix de repêchage en plus d’un choix supplémentaire, ou bien la possibilité pour le Canadien de choisir un espoir de son choix – autre que Seth Jarvis – à ajouter à la transaction. Cela signifierait qu’un espoir comme Dominik Bokk, Ryan Suzuki, Noel Gunler ou Jamieson Rees aurait pu être ajouté à la transaction.
Le Canadien a dit non.
What are the two picks? Two 2nd rounders, two first rounders or seeing as MB loves the 7th round, two 7th rounders?
 
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Whitesnake

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What are the two picks? Two 2nd rounders, two first rounders or seeing as MB loves the 7th round, two 7th rounders?

The same than the offer sheet gave us. ALLEGEDLY, I need to be cautious here 'cause it seems that me putting RUMOR wasn't enough...ALLEGEDLY....Bergevin was offered the Canes 1st AND 3rd AND a prospect for JK. Thinking that the Canes were bluffing and that he would have some time to sign JK, he refused the deal. Once the offer sheet was given, the deal was obviously off the table as there was no reason for the Canes, THEN, to give an additional prospect to the picks. Based on Godin's article, Canes still didn't want to overpay for JK. And prefered giving one of the prospects not named Jarvis.
 

Whitesnake

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Any report on the picks ?

I'll repeat...SAME than what the offer sheet gave us. For the Canes, one of Bokk/Suzuki/Gunler or Rees was coming to Montreal in order for them to NOT overpay for JK. And maybe have to still overpay him once this present year is done.
 

417

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Feb 20, 2003
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Maybe they were willing to pay from a surplus to not have to deal with headache that will follow if Kotkaniemi decides not to be loyal.
Kotkaniemi not being loyal? Not sure I get what you mean.

KK can put up a decent season ~30 points and simply sign their arbitration reduced qualifying offer at 5-6M. If Canes don't want to offer the QO, they risk having him walk as UFA and go to a team/city he wants/best offer...even back to Montreal.
And worst case - why do you assume the Canes would have a problem with that?

I mean teams give up similar compensation at the deadline for a playoff run, only to see the acquired player walk in free agency.

It happens...when you're trying to compete, it's usually a given.

I think you're underestimating how much of a hassle having Kotkaniemi at a 6.1M QO will be next off season. Having him at a regular contract situation + perhaps with lottery protection on 1st may very well be worth giving up one of their many decent forward prospects. It wouldn't surprise me to see them peddle Ryan Suzuki as a sweetner with their 1st and Bergevin not want a low 1st and a B prospect.
If anything, i'd say everyone is overestimating that...nothing forces them to work out a longer deal before that's even a factor.

The Canes had/very little to lose in this deal expect for potentially, bad public perception, which in their case is actually good.

Flip the situation it'd be hypothetically giving up Poehling and a lottery protected 1st to get Necas (say coming off 35 point season) while threatening that we'd offersheet otherwise vs giving him a offersheet, keeping Poehling, and dealing with non-protected picks/bad contract.
I can see why the Canes would balk at the offer...but if you leveraged me with an offer sheet that forced me to pay Necas more than my current salary structure could afford.

Then yeah, i'll take that compensation instead.
 

Whitesnake

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I mean...I sense some frustration here...if people don't want us to put some rumors especially the ones written by non-clowns journalists...just say it. Ask HF to remove the RUMOR subject if you are too fragile to read it...lol

Maybe one day we will know the real story. Well....I guess it depends whether it favours somebody....I guess Timmins will come out in a few years and depending which one of those projects do great, he'll say that he was in favour to get him but Bergie turn it down...lol

ALLEGEDLY.
 

Habs Icing

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The same than the offer sheet gave us. ALLEGEDLY, I need to be cautious here 'cause it seems that me putting RUMOR wasn't enough...ALLEGEDLY....Bergevin was offered the Canes 1st AND 3rd AND a prospect for JK. Thinking that the Canes were bluffing and that he would have some time to sign JK, he refused the deal. Once the offer sheet was given, the deal was obviously off the table as there was no reason for the Canes, THEN, to give an additional prospect to the picks. Based on Godin's article, Canes still didn't want to overpay for JK. And prefered giving one of the prospects not named Jarvis.
Was that in the article or are we assuming? Because in your post you said two picks. I found that to be strange wording. I can't read the article it's behind a paywall.
 

LaP

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Jun 27, 2012
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The same than the offer sheet gave us. ALLEGEDLY, I need to be cautious here 'cause it seems that me putting RUMOR wasn't enough...ALLEGEDLY....Bergevin was ALLEGEDLY offered the Canes 1st AND 3rd AND a prospect for JK. Thinking that the Canes were bluffing and that he would have some time to sign JK, he ALLEGEDLY refused the deal. Once the offer sheet was given, the ALLEGED deal was ALLEGEDLY off the table as there was ALLEGEDLY no reason for the Canes, THEN, to ALLEGEDLY give an additional prospect to the ALLEGED picks. Based on Godin's article, Canes ALLEGEDLY still didn't want to overpay for JK. And ALLEGEDLY prefered giving one of the ALLEGED prospects not named Jarvis.

Corrected for you.
 

Whitesnake

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Was that in the article or are we assuming? Because in your post you said two picks. I found that to be strange wording. I can't read the article it's behind a paywall.

I'll repost the link and will translate it.

Le Calepin du Canadien: L'importance du tour du chapeau de Mathieu Perreault, d'où viennent les ennuis de l'attaque à cinq, et plus

One thing is clear, the Canes would have prefereed not to sign that contract with JK. and that a trade would have been much better. That's why the Canes tried numerous times to do a deal with the Habs after having informed then of their intent to offert sheet JK.

The basis of the deal was obviously the 1st and the 3rd round picks that would be going back to Montreal. But the Canes were also ready to offer a bonus to the Habs if it would have made it possible NOT to offer sheet.

The tries from Waddell to make a deal before the offer sheet are well documented. Our understanding of the situation is that Waddell had offered the 2 draft picks AND another pick OR for the Habs to select one of Bokk, Suzuki, GUnler or Rees.

The Habs said no.

At first glance, if you remove the offer sheet otu of the equation, the Canes offer wasn't equitable for JK. But the offer sheet was an important part of the eaquation. And by rejecting the offer, the Habs decided to play poker with them, either they had decided that it was preferable for them to see the Canes pick up a big salary rather than adding a good prospect in our pool.

BUt let's think what could have happened if they would have accepted the deal. The Habs could have made the deal with the Coyotes and send the 1st rounder in Arizona for Dvorak. But the dynamics would have been diffrent cause instead of having to come to agreement with an inversion of picks, they just would have offered The Canes 1st rounder and Armstrong would have been glad to do it. ON top of it, there would have been an additional pick in the draft OR another prospect in the Habs system.

By rejecting the offer, the Habs challenged the Canes to pay JK 6.1M$ this season. The idea was to NOT fall for the bluff. It wasn't one.

Une hypothèse de ce qui aurait pu se passer avec l’offre hostile de Kotkaniemi

Une chose est claire : les Hurricanes auraient préféré ne pas signer ce contrat avec Kotkaniemi, et que de leur point de vue, un échange aurait été de loin préférable. C’est pourquoi les Hurricanes ont tenté à plusieurs reprises de trouver un arrangement avec le Canadien après les avoir informés de leur intention de déposer une offre hostile à Kotkaniemi.
La base des pourparlers était évidemment les choix de première et de troisième rondes qui passeraient dans le camp du Canadien en guise de compensation advenant une offre hostile. Mais les Hurricanes étaient prêts à offrir un bonus au Canadien si cela leur permettait d’éviter l’offre hostile.
Les tentatives du directeur général des Hurricanes, Don Waddell, de conclure un échange avant de compléter l’offre hostile ont été bien documentées. Notre compréhension des choses, c’est que l’offre portait sur les deux choix de repêchage en plus d’un choix supplémentaire, ou bien la possibilité pour le Canadien de choisir un espoir de son choix – autre que Seth Jarvis – à ajouter à la transaction. Cela signifierait qu’un espoir comme Dominik Bokk, Ryan Suzuki, Noel Gunler ou Jamieson Rees aurait pu être ajouté à la transaction.
Le Canadien a dit non.
À première vue, si vous ôtez l’offre hostile de l’équation, l’offre des Hurricanes n’était pas équitable pour Kotkaniemi. Mais l’offre hostile était une part importante de l’équation, et en rejetant l’offre de transaction, soit que le Canadien s’engageait dans une grosse partie de poker, soit qu’il avait décidé qu’il était plus intéressant d’alourdir les Hurricanes de ce contrat plutôt que d’ajouter un espoir honnête à sa pépinière.
Mais faisons des hypothèses sur ce qui aurait pu se passer s’il avait accepté l’échange.
Si cela s’était produit, le Canadien aurait pu conclure un échange avec les Coyotes pour envoyer ce choix de premier tour en Arizona en retour de Christian Dvorak, ce qui est finalement arrivé de toute façon. Mais la dynamique de l’échange aurait été bien différente et le Canadien aurait probablement pu éviter d’avoir à s’entendre sur une inversion de choix comme ça a finalement été le cas. Les deux formations auraient pu simplement inclure le choix de premier tour de la Caroline dans la transaction, sans aucune condition, et le directeur général des Coyotes, Bill Armstrong, aurait probablement été ravi.
En plus de cela, il y aurait un choix supplémentaire au repêchage ou alors un autre espoir dans le système du Canadien.
En rejetant cette offre, le CH a essentiellement mis les Hurricanes au défi de payer 6,1 millions $ à Kotkaniemi cette saison. C’était refuser de succomber à ce qu’il devait percevoir comme un bluff.
Ce n’en était pas un.
 
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Whitesnake

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In essence, if the only thing the Canes wanted is to get JK through an offer sheet, why in the world did they try to get him through a trade? Or do we decide to play the ALLEGEDLY game for that too? And why would they offer LESS to Bergie in a trade when Bergie knew he could have more by just letting him go?

DIdn't both guys say that they were trying to work out a deal?
 

HabsCowboysOwn

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The fact MB is a clueless clown with non-existent asset management skills is well known by now so I’m not sure I understand what makes this rumor that hard to believe…
 
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le_sean

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Oct 21, 2006
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From the same article:

"Had that happened, the Canadiens could have worked out a deal with the Arizona Coyotes to flip that first-round pick for Christian Dvorak, which is ultimately what happened anyway. Except the leverage dynamic in that trade would have been far different without an offer sheet having over Montreal’s head, and the Canadiens likely could have avoided having to concede to the pick swap arrangement that ultimately wound up being part of the deal. They instead could have simply included Carolina’s first-round pick in the deal with no conditions attached, and Coyotes GM Bill Armstrong likely would have been thrilled."

Complete speculation. We are talking about a 25 year old 2C with a great contract that they had no reason to trade right away. One that can play in any situation and is great at faceoffs. The price was the price, it wasn’t moving. Lots of teams would have wanted him, including our rival Bruins who have a big hole at centre. If he could have been had for a lower pick, we wouldn’t have Mailloux.
 
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