Proposal: What Should the Bruins do this Summer? III

[bruinmann77]

I am keeping Carlo

 

[GloryDaze4877]

If McPhee doesn't already have an agreement in place with Minnesota, I'd like him to flip Dumba to Boston. That would give us another RD, so Sweeney would be in a position to deal Carlo to Denver for Landy.

Dumba is still young and has a greater upside, IMO, than Carlo.

2017-2018:

Chara-McAvoy
Krug-Dumba
O'Gara-K. Miller
McQuaid

2018-2019:

Krug-Dumba
Zboril-McAvoy
O'Gara-K.Miller
McQuaid-Lauzon

It would take a first + (Spooner?) to acquire Dumba. Probably have to add a LW prospect with Carlo for Landeskog.

Next two weeks will be interesting.

Dumba turns 23 next month.



When he was 19:

MIN - 13gp, 1g/1a, -5
POR (CHL) - 26gp, 8g/16a, +31



When he was 20:

MIN - 58gp, 8g/8a, +13
Iowa - 20gp, 5g/9a, +2



When Carlo was 19/20 (didn't turn 20 until end of last NOV):

BOS - 82gp, 6g/10a, +9

(Played top pair minutes against opponents best lines)



Dumba may be better offensively, but right now, more than 3 years older than Carlo, BC is already better defensively. I'm not sure why anyone would want to move Carlo, unless a stud player was coming back.


How much better might Carlo be in 2-3 years?



Grass is always greener.

 

[bp13]

There are trades backlogged because of the expansion draft and other teams looking to see what the fallout will be before making moves. Teams weren't willing to sell low on potential unprotected guys...rather the opposite in Minny's case.

Okay but I'm not even suggesting the Bruins needed to try to bend over any of these GM's. I think the Bruins should be in a position where they can slightly overpay with futures to fill current holes. At some point they're going to need to be more aggressive with the current club, and this feels like a good time. So I'm fine if these teams didn't want to sell low....but they wouldn't take fair value? Or Sweeney just wouldn't offer it?

End of the day we don't know why Sweeney doesn't close trades we just know he doesn't. So people can guess or invent excuses, just like people can rip him without knowing. But the bottom line is that he NEEDS to get the job done at some point right? It's not an excuse business. He eventually has to upgrade the roster through trades and he hasn't shown he can.

And yes...he has time. I'm not denying that. I'm just noting that we've heard that a ton of times before. And also that he missed a golden opportunity before the expansion draft. Does anybody think he's more likely to succeed when the market is larger?

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

Dumba turns 23 next month.



When he was 19:

MIN - 13gp, 1g/1a, -5
POR (CHL) - 26gp, 8g/16a, +31



When he was 20:

MIN - 58gp, 8g/8a, +13
Iowa - 20gp, 5g/9a, +2



When Carlo was 19/20 (didn't turn 20 until end of last NOV):

BOS - 82gp, 6g/10a, +9

(Played top pair minutes against opponents best lines)



Dumba may be better offensively, but right now, more than 3 years older than Carlo, BC is already better defensively. I'm not sure why anyone would want to move Carlo, unless a stud player was coming back.


How much better might Carlo be in 2-3 years?



Grass is always greener.

yeah how does Dumba have more upside when Carlo played more minutes at 20 than Dumba at 22?

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Okay but I'm not even suggesting the Bruins needed to try to bend over any of these GM's. I think the Bruins should be in a position where they can slightly overpay with futures to fill current holes. At some point they're going to need to be more aggressive with the current club, and this feels like a good time. So I'm fine if these teams didn't want to sell low....but they wouldn't take fair value? Or Sweeney just wouldn't offer it?

End of the day we don't know why Sweeney doesn't close trades we just know he doesn't. So people can guess or invent excuses, just like people can rip him without knowing. But the bottom line is that he NEEDS to get the job done. It's not an excuse business. He eventually has to upgrade the roster through trades and he hasn't shown he can.

You can beat this drum all you want, but the fact remains that Sweeney has been extremely up front about his "plan".

Draft and develop. Remain competitive at the NHL level while waiting for the kids that have been drafted to integrate with the veterans, to form the nucleus for a Cup team.

If the prospects continue to develop as they have, Sweeney will have a glut of young talent, but there is no need to rush the process unless a deal that favors the B's is there.

Pasta, Carlo, McAvoy just the beginning.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

yeah how does Dumba have more upside when Carlo played more minutes at 20 than Dumba at 22?

Because he's on somebody else's roster?

 

[bp13]

Dumba turns 23 next month.



When he was 19:

MIN - 13gp, 1g/1a, -5
POR (CHL) - 26gp, 8g/16a, +31



When he was 20:

MIN - 58gp, 8g/8a, +13
Iowa - 20gp, 5g/9a, +2



When Carlo was 19/20 (didn't turn 20 until end of last NOV):

BOS - 82gp, 6g/10a, +9

(Played top pair minutes against opponents best lines)



Dumba may be better offensively, but right now, more than 3 years older than Carlo, BC is already better defensively. I'm not sure why anyone would want to move Carlo, unless a stud player was coming back.


How much better might Carlo be in 2-3 years?



Grass is always greener.

Counterargument, for argument's sake mind you:

Coming into this season the scouting report from the entire career of Brandon Carlo was that of a minutes eater, middle-pair, defense-first guy with reach and decent skating skills. Seemed like his upside was that of a 2nd pair anchor type, more likely 3rd pairing defense-first, steady guy. He played one season in the NHL with a great first half and then struggled thereafter, though picked up at the end. He played next to Zdeno Chara, easily the team's best d-man last season.

After one season, should we throw away the scouting report from the entire body of his work and reset it to what he looked like in one half of a season with Chara as his partner? Or is it more prudent to assume he's something closer to his larger sample size? Or even rosier, something in between?

 

[bp13]

You can beat this drum all you want, but the fact remains that Sweeney has been extremely up front about his "plan".

Draft and develop. Remain competitive at the NHL level while waiting for the kids that have been drafted to integrate with the veterans, to form the nucleus for a Cup team.

If the prospects continue to develop as they have, Sweeney will have a glut of young talent, but there is no need to rush the process unless a deal that favors the B's is there.

Pasta, Carlo, McAvoy just the beginning.

Okay but will those three be the core when this team competes for a Cup? Set my expectations...should I assume Chara and likely Bergeron and Krejci are gone the next time Sweeney thinks it's our year? Did he win his job selling a 6-8 year plan???

I have no problem with draft and develop. But the roster is pretty good right now isn't it? They can't spare a pick or a prospect or two to fill a couple big holes? I don't see how that's not keeping with their strategy. they seemingly have a glut of prospects and some key players reaching the end or playing the back 9...one would think those two things would conspire to seeing them move a few prospects to amp up the current roster.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Counterargument, for argument's sake mind you:

Coming into this season the scouting report from the entire career of Brandon Carlo was that of a minutes eater, middle-pair, defense-first guy with reach and decent skating skills. Seemed like his upside was that of a 2nd pair anchor type, more likely 3rd pairing defense-first, steady guy. He played one season in the NHL with a great first half and then struggled thereafter, though picked up at the end. He played next to Zdeno Chara, easily the team's best d-man last season.

After one season, should we throw away the scouting report from the entire body of his work and reset it to what he looked like in one half of a season with Chara as his partner? Or is it more prudent to assume he's something closer to his larger sample size? Or even rosier, something in between?

To be honest, I don't really care what Carlo's scouting report said before he reached the Pros. What was Colton Parayko's scouting report before he reached the NHL? After watching him play with Werenski on the first pair of the US WJC team, I was convinced that he was a keeper. His skating skills (particularly for his size) are much more than "decent".

The kid came in at 19 and played first pair and 21 minutes a game. Was anybody at all surprised that he hit a wall half way through the season? I know I wasn't. I though the last 4-6 weeks of the season he adjusted and looked more like his first half self.

As far as Carlo playing with Chara, that works both ways. The year before Chara looked cooked when he wasn't paired with Carlo. Putting Z with a big mobile kid helped him just as much/more than he helped Carlo. Hopefully, we see that with McAvoy this season.

I guess I just don't understand why people seem intent on moving Carlo, when if he continues to develop (which I believe he will), the B's could be set for the next decade on the right hand side with Carlo and C-Mac.

 

[NDiesel]

Because he's on somebody else's roster?

Isn't this the truth

We finally get a potential minute-eating "Chara replacement" (I put in quotations because no one can really replace what he brings) and everyone wants to trade him for something more shiny.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Okay but will those three be the core when this team competes for a Cup? Set my expectations...should I assume Chara and likely Bergeron and Krejci are gone the next time Sweeney thinks it's our year? Did he win his job selling a 6-8 year plan???

I have no problem with draft and develop. But the roster is pretty good right now isn't it? They can't spare a pick or a prospect or two to fill a couple big holes? I don't see how that's not keeping with their strategy. they seemingly have a glut of prospects and some key players reaching the end or playing the back 9...one would think those two things would conspire to seeing them move a few prospects to amp up the current roster.

I think Chara could be gone as early as next year. Hopefully, 37 and 46 have at least 4 more good years left in them.

I think it's kind of amusing, but Sweeney seemingly can't win. You (and others) are saying he hasn't done enough to add to the current core in the hopes of making a playoff run, because the B's have a glut of prospects. The other side is critical of Sweeney for adding a Stempniak or Liles (for picks) and not dealing Loui (for futures) when the team was solidly in the playoffs the year before.

Which is it?

Personally, I would be OK with the B's going into the 2017-18 with the players they have now and trying to integrate 2/3 young players into the F group, and then adding at the TDL depending on how they perform. I would also be fine with Sweeney making a "3 for 1" deal for a younger veteran player like Landeskog, as long as the cost is not outrageous. I just don't want him making deals for the sake of making deals.

 

[TheReal13Linseman]

To be honest, I don't really care what Carlo's scouting report said before he reached the Pros. What was Colton Parayko's scouting report before he reached the NHL? After watching him play with Werenski on the first pair of the US WJC team, I was convinced that he was a keeper. His skating skills (particularly for his size) are much more than "decent".

The kid came in at 19 and played first pair and 21 minutes a game. Was anybody at all surprised that he hit a wall half way through the season? I know I wasn't. I though the last 4-6 weeks of the season he adjusted and looked more like his first half self.

As far as Carlo playing with Chara, that works both ways. The year before Chara looked cooked when he wasn't paired with Carlo. Putting Z with a big mobile kid helped him just as much/more than he helped Carlo. Hopefully, we see that with McAvoy this season.

I guess I just don't understand why people seem intent on moving Carlo, when if he continues to develop (which I believe he will), the B's could be set for the next decade on the right hand side with Carlo and C-Mac.

Whether you're a Chara critic, like me, or a Chara fanboy, you gotta love the effect Carlo had on him this past season. He injected new life into the old horse and if that repeats, Chara can easily stay for another year or two and be quite effective. If we added another legit D to the mix with CMac and Krug, I'd be feeling really good about our D corps, something I haven't felt for several seasons now.

 

[pisele]

I think Chara could be gone as early as next year. Hopefully, 37 and 46 have at least 4 more good years left in them.

I think it's kind of amusing, but Sweeney seemingly can't win. You (and others) are saying he hasn't done enough to add to the current core in the hopes of making a playoff run, because the B's have a glut of prospects. The other side is critical of Sweeney for adding a Stempniak or Liles (for picks) and not dealing Loui (for futures) when the team was solidly in the playoffs the year before.

Which is it?

Personally, I would be OK with the B's going into the 2017-18 with the players they have now and trying to integrate 2/3 young players into the F group, and then adding at the TDL depending on how they perform. I would also be fine with Sweeney making a "3 for 1" deal for a younger veteran player like Landeskog, as long as the cost is not outrageous. I just don't want him making deals for the sake of making deals.

1. Chara does not have much left in the tank. I watched Larry Robinson fade at age 40 and it wasn't pretty.

2. http://www.csnne.com/boston-bruins/report-leafs-targeting-colin-miller-expansion-draft-deal

The Leafs are going to swoop in on Colin Miller. Why can't the Bruins go after Dumba?

 

[Bergyesque]

A lot of you may have missed that McPhee was making GMs "pledge" not to do trades that may hurt Vegas if they did deals not to pick certain players, which is a big reason why there was not a huge roster turnover like expected before the ED deadline.

I missed that.
So McPhee had some kind of gentlemen agreement with GMs?
Like: "If you don't make trades to not expose good players to Vegas, I "promise" to work with you individually to come to a mutual agreement on a compensation to not pick those good players you can't protect."

That would explain why there was not much action before the freeze, like you said, and why Vegas has seemingly a deal with half the league.

 

[bp13]

To be honest, I don't really care what Carlo's scouting report said before he reached the Pros. What was Colton Parayko's scouting report before he reached the NHL? After watching him play with Werenski on the first pair of the US WJC team, I was convinced that he was a keeper. His skating skills (particularly for his size) are much more than "decent".

The kid came in at 19 and played first pair and 21 minutes a game. Was anybody at all surprised that he hit a wall half way through the season? I know I wasn't. I though the last 4-6 weeks of the season he adjusted and looked more like his first half self.

As far as Carlo playing with Chara, that works both ways. The year before Chara looked cooked when he wasn't paired with Carlo. Putting Z with a big mobile kid helped him just as much/more than he helped Carlo. Hopefully, we see that with McAvoy this season.

I guess I just don't understand why people seem intent on moving Carlo, when if he continues to develop (which I believe he will), the B's could be set for the next decade on the right hand side with Carlo and C-Mac.

Well you kind of answered your own questions in here.

For one, NOBODY is intent on moving him, so that's a strawman. I am perfectly OPEN to moving him if you could return a better player, albeit likely older and more costly, whom you were more sure of their potential and would be a bigger impact over the next say 4-6 years. There are plenty of those guys out there, just not sure how many would be dealt for Carlo. But if Sweeney was considering that, with the bevy of defensive prospects he's got as fallback insurance, now is a pretty good time considering Carlo's value.

Secondly, YOU believe he will continue to develop. Obviously he will develop, but into what? Was he at his floor this season? We've certainly seen d-men come into this league, look like crap and turn out great. We've also seen them come in and look great and end up mediocre or crap. So it's all about the talent evaluation, and clearly opinions will differ. Is that not fair?

 

[bp13]

I think Chara could be gone as early as next year. Hopefully, 37 and 46 have at least 4 more good years left in them.

I think it's kind of amusing, but Sweeney seemingly can't win. You (and others) are saying he hasn't done enough to add to the current core in the hopes of making a playoff run, because the B's have a glut of prospects. The other side is critical of Sweeney for adding a Stempniak or Liles (for picks) and not dealing Loui (for futures) when the team was solidly in the playoffs the year before.

Which is it?

Personally, I would be OK with the B's going into the 2017-18 with the players they have now and trying to integrate 2/3 young players into the F group, and then adding at the TDL depending on how they perform. I would also be fine with Sweeney making a "3 for 1" deal for a younger veteran player like Landeskog, as long as the cost is not outrageous. I just don't want him making deals for the sake of making deals.

If you find hypocritical positions with those fans, know it works both ways. It's hypocritical to claim he's done all good and the future is bright when he sunk most of the present to get it. Those prospects didn't fall into his lap with great management skills..he gave up good players to get them. And he iced 2 out of 3 teams that missed the playoffs so his picks were higher. So sure, future looks better and I have no problems saying it, but there were costs.

But I find myself arguing a position I don't like. I'm not against the strategy he took. I wanted the retool - heck I was on board with a rebuild. I loved the Lucic trade. I just don't like some of the execution of the retool, like keeping Loui, signing Backes, Beleskey, keeping Miller AND McQuaid, etc. And to the present day, I don't love that we seemingly have a glut of prospects, have made a million picks in recent years, luckily find ourselves only 1-2 players from icing a pretty damn good team, and we aren't gonna trade a little surplus? We're gonna let Chara walk away and leave a huge hole, Bergeron and Krejci to get that much older, and we aren't going to aggressively try to move 1-3 prospects/picks to fill out those couple spots? Just seems to me like he could actually have his cake and eat it too, but he's either unwilling or more likely incapable of closing deals to do it.

The comparison I'd make is to Ben Cherington with the Red Sox. He had the development piece down pat, but he couldn't make the right moves with his MLB roster, or enough of them, and he got basically fired for a guy who can close. Sweeney feels like Cherington to me.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Well you kind of answered your own questions in here.

For one, NOBODY is intent on moving him, so that's a strawman. I am perfectly OPEN to moving him if you could return a better player, albeit likely older and more costly, whom you were more sure of their potential and would be a bigger impact over the next say 4-6 years. There are plenty of those guys out there, just not sure how many would be dealt for Carlo. But if Sweeney was considering that, with the bevy of defensive prospects he's got as fallback insurance, now is a pretty good time considering Carlo's value.

Secondly, YOU believe he will continue to develop. Obviously he will develop, but into what? Was he at his floor this season? We've certainly seen d-men come into this league, look like crap and turn out great. We've also seen them come in and look great and end up mediocre or crap. So it's all about the talent evaluation, and clearly opinions will differ. Is that not fair?

There have been plenty of posters that have had proposals with Carlo being traded and bringing in Landeskog or another F. I think that's just robbing Peter to pay Paul. I was responding to a post that was saying the B's should add Dumba because he has more upside than Carlo, which I don't believe is the case. You interjected and took the discussion in a bit of a different direction.

I have already said several times (and I believe you were in one of these previous discussions) that I think Carlo will be an all around 3 that can jump up and play top pair minutes if necessary. I am guessing that he gives you between 25-30 points tops, but provides "shut down" type D. I don't think he has the ceiling that McAvoy does, and that Carlo will play behind him in the not so distant future.

I don't trade the D-man I just described for Landeskog (especially if the B's have to add). I substitute other pieces and failing that, don't make the deal. Then I move on and find a more reasonably priced alternative at F, or see how one of the kids does in that spot.

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

Well you kind of answered your own questions in here.

For one, NOBODY is intent on moving him, so that's a strawman. I am perfectly OPEN to moving him if you could return a better player, albeit likely older and more costly, whom you were more sure of their potential and would be a bigger impact over the next say 4-6 years. There are plenty of those guys out there, just not sure how many would be dealt for Carlo. But if Sweeney was considering that, with the bevy of defensive prospects he's got as fallback insurance, now is a pretty good time considering Carlo's value.

Secondly, YOU believe he will continue to develop. Obviously he will develop, but into what? Was he at his floor this season? We've certainly seen d-men come into this league, look like crap and turn out great. We've also seen them come in and look great and end up mediocre or crap. So it's all about the talent evaluation, and clearly opinions will differ. Is that not fair?

I see what you're saying, but I'm more with Joe on this one.

Carlo's floor as I see it, is a GOOD second-pair defenceman who plays on the right side. The kind of an asset that you can make other teams OVERPAY for... and not one that you package with other assets unless you're nabbing a certified superstar in the process.

Carlo is a keeper unless otherwise blown away.

 

[NDiesel]

I missed that.
So McPhee had some kind of gentlemen agreement with GMs?
Like: "If you don't make trades to not expose good players to Vegas, I "promise" to work with you individually to come to a mutual agreement on a compensation to not pick those good players you can't protect."

That would explain why there was not much action before the freeze, like you said, and why Vegas has seemingly a deal with half the league.

This is correct. Bob McKenzie tweeted it somewhere, if I wasn't working I'd pull it up to post here, maybe someone else here can find it though.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

If you find hypocritical positions with those fans, know it works both ways. It's hypocritical to claim he's done all good and the future is bright when he sunk most of the present to get it. Those prospects didn't fall into his lap with great management skills..he gave up good players to get them. And he iced 2 out of 3 teams that missed the playoffs so his picks were higher. So sure, future looks better and I have no problems saying it, but there were costs.

But I find myself arguing a position I don't like. I'm not against the strategy he took. I wanted the retool - heck I was on board with a rebuild. I loved the Lucic trade. I just don't like some of the execution of the retool, like keeping Loui, signing Backes, Beleskey, keeping Miller AND McQuaid, etc. And to the present day, I don't love that we seemingly have a glut of prospects, have made a million picks in recent years, luckily find ourselves only 1-2 players from icing a pretty damn good team, and we aren't gonna trade a little surplus? We're gonna let Chara walk away and leave a huge hole, Bergeron and Krejci to get that much older, and we aren't going to aggressively try to move 1-3 prospects/picks to fill out those couple spots? Just seems to me like he could actually have his cake and eat it too, but he's either unwilling or more likely incapable of closing deals to do it.

The comparison I'd make is to Ben Cherington with the Red Sox. He had the development piece down pat, but he couldn't make the right moves with his MLB roster, or enough of them, and he got basically fired for a guy who can close. Sweeney feels like Cherington to me.

1) I have never claimed that everything that Sweeney has done was good.

2) I don't believe for a second that he's sunk "most of the present" into the rebuild. It was Lucic, who they were not going to re-sign at $6m per for 6 years and Hamilton, who I think blindsided them a bit. Boychuk was a Chia move, but DS and the scouting people did a good job with those picks.

 

[bp13]

There have been plenty of posters that have had proposals with Carlo being traded and bringing in Landeskog or another F. I think that's just robbing Peter to pay Paul. I was responding to a post that was saying the B's should add Dumba because he has more upside than Carlo, which I don't believe is the case. You interjected and took the discussion in a bit of a different direction.

I have already said several times (and I believe you were in one of these previous discussions) that I think Carlo will be an all around 3 that can jump up and play top pair minutes if necessary. I am guessing that he gives you between 25-30 points tops, but provides "shut down" type D. I don't think he has the ceiling that McAvoy does, and that Carlo will play behind him in the not so distant future.

I don't trade the D-man I just described for Landeskog (especially if the B's have to add). I substitute other pieces and failing that, don't make the deal. Then I move on and find a more reasonably priced alternative at F, or see how one of the kids does in that spot.

Ok so that makes your position more clear. I'm fine with that. I see Carlo in the same vein...2nd pair guy with #3 upside and certainly capable of riding shotgun on a first pair, as most 2nd pair guys can. And my knee-jerk feeling about Landeskog is that he isn't what I'd deal Carlo for. Now, if Landeskog was what he was supposed to be, a 25+ goal scorer who put up 60+ points, I'd trade Carlo for him any day. And if such a player in that age range was available, I'd trade Carlo for him. In other words, a 2nd pair D man with #3 upside is not remotely untouchable to me, especially not with a franchise supposedly super deep on d-men in the system.


But to go back to it, I wouldn't say folks are "intent" on trading Carlo if they're "willing" to trade Carlo. I'm willing to deal him for the right return, but I'm not shopping him if I'm the GM. He's just another good, young player whom I'd value highly.

 

[bp13]

1) I have never claimed that everything that Sweeney has done was good.

2) I don't believe for a second that he's sunk "most of the present" into the rebuild. It was Lucic, who they were not going to re-sign at $6m per for 6 years and Hamilton, who I think blindsided them a bit. Boychuk was a Chia move, but DS and the scouting people did a good job with those picks.

Again, I have no issue with the retool. I endorsed it and wanted it. I take issue with his failings at improving the current roster aside from through rising prospects. He has not done well in free agency, in my opinion, and he hasn't added anything of real value in trade. I'm just saying he needs to be better in those areas to be good at his job. Not sure why that's controversial. Is it asking too much to want a GM who is both good at identifying and calling up talent AND can do the same with NHL players?

 

[v1821]

Alex Tuch

Some thought about trading our 1st to VGK for Alex Tuch...

https://twitter.com/NHLbyMatty/status/877634530529525760

Dupes mentioned it too: https://twitter.com/GlobeKPD/status/877633753014652928

Don't know him well -- any insight?

V

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

Some thought about trading our 1st to VGK for Alex Tuch...

https://twitter.com/NHLbyMatty/status/877634530529525760

Dupes mentioned it too: https://twitter.com/GlobeKPD/status/877633753014652928

Don't know him well -- any insight?

V

Power forward with great size and good wheels.

I'm uncertain about his upside. Personally.

Also shoots right and plays on the right side (I believe). Don't know if this is the asset I'm clamouring for.

 

[s3antana5757]

Power forward with great size and good wheels.

I'm uncertain about his upside. Personally.

Also shoots right and plays on the right side (I believe). Don't know if this is the asset I'm clamouring for.

Odd that two reporters mentioned it. Would allow Backes to be the 3rd line C.