What makes Yzerman rated so high

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I agree that 89 is the best offensive year either of them had. But Crosby had the three next best years, and by last year (when he was the highest scoring Canadian by a decent margin), Sid was likely better defensively than yzerman was in 89.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I agree that 89 is the best offensive year either of the had. But Crosby had the three next best years, and by last year (when he was the highest scoring Canadian by a decent margin), Sid was likely better defensively than yzerman was in 89.

Prolly but not only was Stevie not required to pay as much attention to defense as Sid and every player in the league has to today, Stevie was heavily encouraged to play offensively.
He scored or the Wings lost period, that's how it was.

He did what was asked of him. They asked him to score, he scored and did it better than almost everyone else.
Then they asked him to play defense, he played defense almost better than anyone else.
What more can you ask, seriously?

 

[Jules Winnfield]

If you're a younger fan and didn't have a chance to watch Yzerman over the long haul, you'll never understand how great he was.

He could beat you so many ways. Offensively, Defensively, on the PP, on the PK, winning a big faceoff, giving up his body to block a shot, and so on.

One of the best all around players and captains in NHL history IMO.

 

[Borlag]

I agree crosby hasn't come close to yzerman's career, but I think it's pretty silly to say he hasn't at least matched his peak. For the last 5 years, Crosby and ovechkin have been the two best forwards in the world by a pretty good amount. Not every season, but over the stretch of seasons. Was yzerman ever at that level compared to his non-Gretzky/Lemieux peers for that long?

The thing is, they haven't. For the past 5 years, there's always been plenty of people who have rated guys like Datsuyk, Malkin and even the Sedin's up there. While it could be said that Crosby has been the clear cut number one, it's a stretch to say that Ovechkin's there as well as he simply isn't.

It's also worth noting that Europeans didn't come over en mass until yzerman's offensive prime was almost over, and Crosby has already been the leading Canadian score three times before this current season.

Completely irrelevant for several reasons. For one, first you hold it against Yzerman that he didn't play with that many europeans, then you applaud Crosby for leading Canadians, and this time ignore the europeans. Based on no one being able to reach Yzerman's peak, outside Lemieux and Gretzky obviously, not before or after, it's rather obvious that having Europeans come in the league earlier wouldn't have made much difference. Yzerman would've still been ahead of everyone but those two.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The thing is, they haven't. For the past 5 years, there's always been plenty of people who have rated guys like Datsuyk, Malkin and even the Sedin's up there. While it could be said that Crosby has been the clear cut number one, it's a stretch to say that Ovechkin's there as well as he simply isn't.



Completely irrelevant for several reasons. For one, first you hold it against Yzerman that he didn't play with that many europeans, then you applaud Crosby for leading Canadians, and this time ignore the europeans. Based on no one being able to reach Yzerman's peak, outside Lemieux and Gretzky obviously, not before or after, it's rather obvious that having Europeans come in the league earlier wouldn't have made much difference. Yzerman would've still been ahead of everyone but those two.

Datsyuk, malkin, and the Sedins were on Crosby/ovechkin level some years, not others. Those are the only two who have been elite forwards every single year since they broke out. If the sedins keep their pace from the last wo years for three more, they'll have matched what Crosby and ovechkin have already done.

As to the second point, I think it's very relevant that if you equalize the conpetition (remove Gretzky, Lemieux, and Europeans) that Crosby leads yzerman in hypothetical art rosses 3-1, even if yzerman's 1 is better. As for no euros matching yzerman, most people here think jagr's 1999 and yzerman's 1989 are very comparable.

 

[Borlag]

Datsyuk, malkin, and the Sedins were on Crosby/ovechkin level some years, not others. Those are the only two who have been elite forwards every single year since they broke out. If the sedins keep their pace from the last wo years for three more, they'll have matched what Crosby and ovechkin have already done.

Exactly, those guys have been on the same level as Crosby and Ovechkin, thus dropping both Crosby and Ovechkin from the clear cut number 1 pedelstal. Of course when all is said and done, unless a career ending injury happens, both of them will most likely have better careers than Datsyuk, Malkin and the Sedins, but right now it is very much still a competition between those guys.

As to the second point, I think it's very relevant that if you equalize the conpetition (remove Gretzky, Lemieux, and Europeans) that Crosby leads yzerman in hypothetical art rosses 3-1, even if yzerman's 1 is better. As for no euros matching yzerman, most people here think jagr's 1999 and yzerman's 1989 are very comparable.

Why is it equalizing the competition when you remove the Europeans? Pretty much everyone agrees that Gretzky and Lemieux are in a league of their own, so removing those from the discussion is fine, but Europeans? Why exactly, because of some hypothetical European guy in the 80's that would've beaten Yzerman, Gretzky and Lemieux?

As for Jagr's season, while it was great no doubt about that, that still doesn't explain why Yzerman should be rated below 30's or 100's like has been suggested here.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Ah if you mention the Europeans you also gotta mention that Yzerman's best year came in a 21 team league not a 30 team league. The creation of around 200 more NHL jobs and the dilution coming with it should even out the Euro factor to some extent.

 

[purrrnella]

Steve Yzerman has a class that Crosby could never touch in a million yrs. Crosby comes from the ME generation and in that he is definitely a leader. Crosby`s a damn good player, but he`ll never earn the respect that Yzerman has. nor does he deserve it. he`s just a puss who plays hockey well, but he`s not a person people would what to get to really know like they would with Steve.Players who put their teams before their selves make good leaders and Crosby`s to busy kissing his own ass to do that.

 

[JackSlater]

Thier 3 best seasons are pretty much the same based on adjusted stats. Yzerman shouldn't get extra credit for playing in a high scoring era.

Sure their three best seasons even out, in fact they very likely favour Crosby, but I was only referring to their best single seasons, hence why I singled out 1989. I was not basing my assessment on raw stats either as you are implying, but on Yzerman's domination of any player who was not Gretzky/Lemieux or one of their teammates (I know that Nicholls would still have a very impressive point total even if Gretzky was not on his team). Clearly Crosby has already reached a consistent level of play that Yzerman was not able to sustain.

Why is it equalizing the competition when you remove the Europeans? Pretty much everyone agrees that Gretzky and Lemieux are in a league of their own, so removing those from the discussion is fine, but Europeans? Why exactly, because of some hypothetical European guy in the 80's that would've beaten Yzerman, Gretzky and Lemieux?

The issue is not that there may have been guys in Europe at the time who would have challenged Yzerman. There likely wasn't anyone in Europe during Yzerman's peak who would have been really close to him since Makarov and Krutov had somewhat fallen off. The issue is that European countries are now producing far more elite players than they did in the late 80s and early 90s, and thus there are more elite players that Crosby has to compete with, making it tougher for him to stand out and win awads relative to Yzerman (in the scenario without Gretzky and Lemieux).

Ah if you mention the Europeans you also gotta mention that Yzerman's best year came in a 21 team league not a 30 team league. The creation of around 200 more NHL jobs and the dilution coming with it should even out the Euro factor to some extent.

The European factor helps Crosby's case since he has tougher competition, and I don't really see how the increase in the number of teams impacts that. Changing the number of teams may change the raw point totals of skaters, but the ratios they score compared to each other should be roughly the same anyway since they are all playing in the same league.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

The European factor helps Crosby's case since he has tougher competition, and I don't really see how the increase in the number of teams impacts that. Changing the number of teams may change the raw point totals of skaters, but the ratios they score compared to each other should be roughly the same anyway since they are all playing in the same league.

I think the point is that Yzerman played against the roughly top 400 hockey players in the world whereas Crosby is playing against the roughly top 600 hockey players in the world. One would expect a drop in quality of opposition as a result, similar to what happened after the 67 expansion when many career AHLers found NHL gigs.

The expansion of Euro talent would probably make up for it though, hence why I think both points can be left out in such comparison.

 

[Borlag]

I think the point is that Yzerman played against the roughly top 400 hockey players in the world whereas Crosby is playing against the roughly top 600 hockey players in the world. One would expect a drop in quality of opposition as a result, similar to what happened after the 67 expansion when many career AHLers found NHL gigs.

The expansion of Euro talent would probably make up for it though, hence why I think both points can be left out in such comparison.

Basically yes. To put it in more concrete terms, look at the top players for each year that Yzerman was in the league. Compare that to the players during Crosby's career so far. Even though the careers of the latter players are still ongoing, it'd still be far fetched to say that Crosby's playing against tougher opposition. Yzerman was playing in quite possibly the toughest era, at least when looking at the amount of top 100 players. Sure some of the current players might end up there, but can you honestly say that the eras are equal or in favor of the current era? I can't, not even in the most favorable esimates on how peoples careers will continue.

 

[JackSlater]

I think the point is that Yzerman played against the roughly top 400 hockey players in the world whereas Crosby is playing against the roughly top 600 hockey players in the world. One would expect a drop in quality of opposition as a result, similar to what happened after the 67 expansion when many career AHLers found NHL gigs.

The expansion of Euro talent would probably make up for it though, hence why I think both points can be left out in such comparison.

It hardly matter how big the league is. If you expanded the league to 60 teams next season the best players would score much more than they would in a 30 team league, but they would all score much more presumably to the nearly same degree, so the ratio between two players point totals should be the same. This stuation does not bring anyone into the league who could realistically compete among the league leading scorers. The influx of Europeans brought in a bunch of players who could actually compete for scoring titles.

When comparing two players the quality of the average player in the league hardly matters. Yzerman and Crosby were not competing with the average player for honours, and all of their contemporaries played in a league of similar strength. What matter is the quality and quantity of elite players (talent pool, not talent level), and due to the increase in Europeans Crosby has to compete against more elite players, thus making it more difficult to stand out.

 

[Borlag]

When comparing two players the quality of the average player in the league hardly matters. Yzerman and Crosby were not competing with the average player for honours, and all of their contemporaries played in a league of similar strength. What matter is the quality and quantity of elite players (talent pool, not talent level), and due to the increase in Europeans Crosby has to compete against more elite players, thus making it more difficult to stand out.

Here's where I have to disagree completely. The way I think about it, is that there are only few elite players at a time, the players who clearly separate themselves from the rest of the players.

Additionally, as the thread's basic question is why Steve Yzerman is rated so high on all time lists, I find it silly to argue about Crosby's competition, simply because if Crosby truly belongs in the all time great list (which I think he does), he finds a way to separate himself from the rest. The amount of otherwise very good players who have a good year or two (such as Sedin's, Datsyuk and I'd dare say Ovechkin as well, so far anyway) doesn't make any difference as there'll always be good players who compete in the top 10 of any given year.

While I'm most likely one of the biggest Red Wings homers, certainly in this discussion anyway, I have no problem saying that Datsyuk for example doesn't belong in an all time great discussion, yet at the same time he belongs in the discussion if talking about the greatest players currently. To me those are compeltely different things and that's why I don't give much merit to people like Joe Thornton, the Sedin's and the likes. Not until they show they deserve it by consecutively being able to do the same, in both playoffs as well as the regular season.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

It hardly matter how big the league is. If you expanded the league to 60 teams next season the best players would score much more than they would in a 30 team league, but they would all score much more presumably to the nearly same degree, so the ratio between two players point totals should be the same. This stuation does not bring anyone into the league who could realistically compete among the league leading scorers. The influx of Europeans brought in a bunch of players who could actually compete for scoring titles.

When comparing two players the quality of the average player in the league hardly matters. Yzerman and Crosby were not competing with the average player for honours, and all of their contemporaries played in a league of similar strength. What matter is the quality and quantity of elite players (talent pool, not talent level), and due to the increase in Europeans Crosby has to compete against more elite players, thus making it more difficult to stand out.

I understand what you are saying but we're not comparing Crosby and Yzerman in relationship to their respective elite scoring peers here but to each other and therefore the fact that Crosby faces a worse average opponent does matter. If you did the former it would be by default problematic anyway, Crosby isn't dealing with the anomaly of Gretzky and Lemieux in the league at the same time.

 

[Sens Rule]

Steve Yzerman has a class that Crosby could never touch in a million yrs. Crosby comes from the ME generation and in that he is definitely a leader. Crosby`s a damn good player, but he`ll never earn the respect that Yzerman has. nor does he deserve it. he`s just a puss who plays hockey well, but he`s not a person people would what to get to really know like they would with Steve.Players who put their teams before their selves make good leaders and Crosby`s to busy kissing his own ass to do that.

What a stupid post. Crosby plays to win and he has the respect of every player in the NHL as a Winner and a warrior, a guy that would do anything to win a game. If you don't think he has that respect FROM ALL players you are simply wrong. He might not be liked by everyone but certainly he is respected.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ah if you mention the Europeans you also gotta mention that Yzerman's best year came in a 21 team league not a 30 team league. The creation of around 200 more NHL jobs and the dilution coming with it should even out the Euro factor to some extent.

This doesn't make sense to me. All the Europeans give Crosby extra competition for scoring finishes that yzerman didn't have. Creating 200 new NHL jobs (mostly among players who would have never been in the NHL otherwise) has a minimal effect on the competition for scoring finishes. If it were to have any effect, it would be to make it tougher yet again for Crosby, as it's possible one of those 200 players would have a career year.

 

[JackSlater]

I understand what you are saying but we're not comparing Crosby and Yzerman in relationship to their respective elite scoring peers here but to each other and therefore the fact that Crosby faces a worse average opponent does matter. If you did the former it would be by default problematic anyway, Crosby isn't dealing with the anomaly of Gretzky and Lemieux in the league at the same time.

You cannot directly compare them... they hardly played in the same league or against the same players or even each other. You have to compare them against the elite players of their time. Taking out Europeans (for the most part) and Gretzky/Lemieux is the only way to fairly do this to account for the different talent pools and two huge outliers.

 

[Borlag]

This doesn't make sense to me. All the Europeans give Crosby extra competition for scoring finishes that yzerman didn't have. Creating 200 new NHL jobs (mostly among players who would have never been in the NHL otherwise) has a minimal effect on the competition for scoring finishes. If it were to have any effect, it would be to make it tougher yet again for Crosby, as it's possible one of those 200 players would have a career year.

Doesn't quite work like that. The more teams there are, the more the talent is spread and the less top end talent there is to go around. Simply creating a bunch of new teams don't change the amount of talent available. That way the top end talent like Crosby get to play against teams with less top end talent than they would if there were less teams.

As a reminder, how were the expansion teams formed? From expansion drafts, as in picking players not protected by the already existing teams.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

This doesn't make sense to me. All the Europeans give Crosby extra competition for scoring finishes that yzerman didn't have. Creating 200 new NHL jobs (mostly among players who would have never been in the NHL otherwise) has a minimal effect on the competition for scoring finishes. If it were to have any effect, it would be to make it tougher yet again for Crosby, as it's possible one of those 200 players would have a career year.

This makes sense again if you look at respective scoring finishes, but it doesn't make sense if you look at the numbers. It's easier to score on checking wingers, D-men and goalies who in a smaller NHL might be in the minors, therefore the relative value of numbers is affected by this i.e. 150 points in a league where your average opposing D-man is worth a 5.5 on a scale from 1 to 10 is worth more than 150 points in a league where your average opposing D-man is a 5.1 on a scale from 1 to 10.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You cannot directly compare them... they hardly played in the same league or against the same players or even each other. You have to compare them against the elite players of their time. Taking out Europeans (for the most part) and Gretzky/Lemieux is the only way to fairly do this to account for the different talent pools and two huge outliers.

Hey, thanks for trying to finish what i started last night. Heh. Seriously, half the league is euro now, so unless the quality of player from Canada has dropped a ton, you could say the quality of the league talent pool has doubled. With a much bigger talent pool, scoring finishes are tougher to come by. I thought it was a really straightforward concept.

And no, I'm not a kid who ranks crosby over yzerman. I have yzerman like 35th on my list. Haven't tried to slot Crosby in yet, but he and ovechkin would likely be in the 70-90 range I think.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This makes sense again if you look at respective scoring finishes, but it doesn't make sense if you look at the numbers. It's easier to score on checking wingers, D-men and goalies who in a smaller NHL might be in the minors, therefore the relative value of numbers is affected by this i.e. 150 points in a league where your average opposing D-man is worth a 5.5 on a scale from 1 to 10 is worth more than 150 points in a league where your average opposing D-man is a 5.1 on a scale from 1 to 10.

The talent pool has doubled. The number of teams has only gone from 21 to 30. I can't believe anyone would even try to compare the quality of a bottom pairing defensemen today with the pylons of the 1980s. And yes, I have seen games from back then. The gap between the great and not great players is much larger than today. It is much harder to score now, and more parity is one of the reasons.

 

[toob]

one thing you gotta note is that Crosby prolly wouldnt keep up his pace
he played half a season and most of it contained his 25 game 50 point streak
he was already slowing down before he got hurt

wasnt Ovechkin on a similar pace last year halfway through?
i know my man Vinny Lecavalier was at a slightly lesser pace in the 08 season
granted OV played on a run and gun team with great support and floated alot
and Vinny played with Marty St Louis
and while he could play good D he cherrypicked at times also

also Yzerman scored 50 points in 22 games in the 88 season
and then in the next year he scored 65 points in 28 games
thats nearly 3 ppg!
and there might be more im not sure

and he scored this much while winning faceoffs and working hard everywhere
he also killed penalties which Crosby doesnt do regularly
Stevie Wonder who was never a self promoter has a great quote about himself:

"I always considered myself a decent two-way player," he said. "It's just that I never got noticed about playing defense until I stopped scoring."

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

The talent pool has doubled. The number of teams has only gone from 21 to 30. I can't believe anyone would even try to compare the quality of a bottom pairing defensemen today with the pylons of the 1980s. And yes, I have seen games from back then. The gap between the great and not great players is much larger than today. It is much harder to score now, and more parity is one of the reasons.

You would expect the quality in instruction and training to have improved players in general but of course Crosby profited from that as much as the players he opposes. Yzerman didn't have the options as a kid in the 70s to improve his play/physique that Crosby had in the late 90s/early 00s.

In general I agree that the growth of the talent pool has neutralized this effect which is why I think you shouldn't bring up either expansion or the talent pool.

 

[seventieslord]

I think the point is that Yzerman played against the roughly top 400 hockey players in the world whereas Crosby is playing against the roughly top 600 hockey players in the world. One would expect a drop in quality of opposition as a result, similar to what happened after the 67 expansion when many career AHLers found NHL gigs.

This makes sense again if you look at respective scoring finishes, but it doesn't make sense if you look at the numbers. It's easier to score on checking wingers, D-men and goalies who in a smaller NHL might be in the minors, therefore the relative value of numbers is affected by this i.e. 150 points in a league where your average opposing D-man is worth a 5.5 on a scale from 1 to 10 is worth more than 150 points in a league where your average opposing D-man is a 5.1 on a scale from 1 to 10.

... except that's not what has happened. Yzerman was not playing against the top-400 players in the world, more like "400 of the top-700". What happened just a decade later when the floodgates opened, confirms this. And when you look at the number of Canadians in the NHL now compared to in 1989, the numbers prove that competition is fiercer for spots than ever before, even with 9 more teams. If you don't believe that, then it logically follows that you have to belive that the 400th-best Canadian today is actually worse than the 400th-best Canadian 20 years ago. It has never worked that way and it still doesn't. Top-end talent can vary greatly, but we are producing a deeper talent pool than ever before. And for Christ's sake, just watch some games. The worst players on the ice who get taken advantage of most often, are clearly worse than their counterparts today. No question.

You are right that "It's easier to score on checking wingers, D-men and goalies who in a smaller NHL might be in the minors", but you're not considering that the absence of Europeans during Yzerman's prime meant he was facing "checking wingers, D-men and goalies who, if all the best Europeans were here, might be in the minors".

The talent pool has doubled. The number of teams has only gone from 21 to 30. I can't believe anyone would even try to compare the quality of a bottom pairing defensemen today with the pylons of the 1980s. And yes, I have seen games from back then. The gap between the great and not great players is much larger than today. It is much harder to score now, and more parity is one of the reasons.

Absolutely correct.

one thing you gotta note is that Crosby prolly wouldnt keep up his pace
he played half a season and most of it contained his 25 game 50 point streak
he was already slowing down before he got hurt

wasnt Ovechkin on a similar pace last year halfway through?
i know my man Vinny Lecavalier was at a slightly lesser pace in the 08 season
granted OV played on a run and gun team with great support and floated alot
and Vinny played with Marty St Louis
and while he could play good D he cherrypicked at times also

also Yzerman scored 50 points in 22 games in the 88 season
and then in the next year he scored 65 points in 28 games
thats nearly 3 ppg!
and there might be more im not sure

and he scored this much while winning faceoffs and working hard everywhere
he also killed penalties which Crosby doesnt do regularly
Stevie Wonder who was never a self promoter has a great quote about himself:

"I always considered myself a decent two-way player," he said. "It's just that I never got noticed about playing defense until I stopped scoring."

Nice poem!

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Agree with everything except the bolded part. Since 2007 Crosby has been better than Yzerman at his best, and honestly this year it wasn't really close.

You had to see Yzerman in his prime though. Dominated with absolute garbage support and was incredible. It would've been interesting to see what Crosby would've done this year but Yzerman was superb.