What makes Yzerman rated so high

[GreatGonzo]

terrible is going quite far, i think. the goalie platoon was an average goalie (stefan) and an aging good one (hanlon). adam oates was coming into his own, chiasson and petr klima in their primes, peak gerard gallant and shawn burr, paul maclean still good. coached by demers, coming off back to back jack adams awards. and of course the indomitable joey kocur.

basically the exact same team that went to the third round the year before without yzerman, with the only notable missing guy being probert. more or less the same group also went to the third round the year before that, with a younger yzerman and a few good vets who by 89 had been replaced by paul maclean and young guys (ogrodnick, veitch, and brent ashton most notably).

it wasn’t the 1995, 97, or 02 red wings, but that’s not a terrible team. the wheels, however, did fall off the wing the next year, when they disastrously traded oates for bernie federko’s corpse and the entire scoring line of klima, graves, and joe murphy for carson.

He put scored the 2nd player on his team by 62 points, and the team finished barely at .500.

Gallant had his best years playing with a Yzerman, and didn’t before or after the fact repeat the same success.

Is there supposed to be something significant about those players you listed? They weren’t bad players, but having a prime chiasson and klima? Klima played 51 games that season ans Chiasson was a decent D man, but your reallt overrating the talent surrounding Yzerman.

Remember, they went 34-34-12 WITH Yzerman playing out of his mind. Take Yzerman out of the picture, you really think they fair better? I’m confused on what year your referring to, Yzerman played 64 games and scores 102 points in ‘88, the same year they made it to the conference finals. Oates certainly filled it just fine, obviously, but that was sort of a fluke run. They made it again in ‘89, only to not see the post season for another 2 years. I mean Probert led them in production that post season, you really think they weren’t terrible?

Like i said, the team wasn’t good.

 

[The Panther]

Yes, I feel GreatGonzo is under-rating both Yzerman and the Wings of the latter 80s. 1986-87 was the revival of the Detroit franchise, and in 1987-88 they were one of the top teams in the League.

 

[The Panther]

They made it to the Conference Finals in '88 with Yzerman out of the line-up.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

you really think they weren’t terrible?

Like i said, the team wasn’t good.

see, in just one linebreak you backed down from terrible to not good. next post you will come down to what that team was, which is totally average.

Is there supposed to be something significant about those players you listed?

nope. like i said, the team was average.

They weren’t bad players, but

exactly. replace yzerman with dale hawerchuk or denis savard and that team still starts the playoffs on home ice in the norris.

 

[GreatGonzo]

see, in just one linebreak you backed down from terrible to not good. next post you will come down to what that team was, which is totally average.



nope. like i said, the team was average.



exactly. replace yzerman with dale hawerchuk or denis savard and that team still starts the playoffs on home ice in the norris.

So your nit picking the words I used? They were terrible, not good, down right bad....does it really matter that much to you that my wording didn’t fit your liking?

So an “average” finishes barely .500 in the weakest division in the league? Right...

So replace Yzerman with 2 other All time offensive greats, like him, and you get the same results? What kind of logic is that? What point does that prove?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yes, I feel GreatGonzo is under-rating both Yzerman and the Wings of the latter 80s. 1986-87 was the revival of the Detroit franchise, and in 1987-88 they were one of the top teams in the League.

Yes, mainly due to Yzermans play. The team around him benefited greatly from Yzerman. This is the same team that only had one season with a winning record from 1987-1991. They also made the playoffs twice with a losing record and once with an even one, mainly because of their division.

1988 was by far their best year, but they then digressed hugely for the next three years.

 

[The Panther]

Yes, mainly due to Yzermans play. The team around him benefited greatly from Yzerman.

I think we're aware that the team benefited from Yzerman's play, lol.

However, if they were "terrible" besides Yzerman, you'd have to explain their making the conference finals without him. (They also went 9-4-3 in the regular season after he went down to injury.)

This is the same team that only had one season with a winning record from 1987-1991. They also made the playoffs twice with a losing record and once with an even one, mainly because of their division.

1988 was by far their best year, but they then digressed hugely for the next three years.

Okay. I was only talking about 1986-87 and 1987-88.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I think we're aware that the team benefited from Yzerman's play, lol.

However, if they were "terrible" besides Yzerman, you'd have to explain their making the conference finals without him. (They also went 9-4-3 in the regular season after he went down to injury.)

Okay. I was only talking about 1986-87 and 1987-88.

This is the same team where Probert led them in points. They also had a young Oates who was more than capable of being a top center.

Ah I see, yes those two years were exceptional.

 

[K Fleur]

Bob Probert never had an NHL season where he lead his team in points.


Edit: Oh nevermind the '88 playoffs is what you're referring to. Never realized Probert had that good of a run...

 

[Jim MacDonald]

terrible is going quite far, i think. the goalie platoon was an average goalie (stefan) and an aging good one (hanlon). adam oates was coming into his own, chiasson and petr klima in their primes, peak gerard gallant and shawn burr, paul maclean still good. coached by demers, coming off back to back jack adams awards. and of course the indomitable joey kocur.

basically the exact same team that went to the third round the year before without yzerman, with the only notable missing guy being probert. more or less the same group also went to the third round the year before that, with a younger yzerman and a few good vets who by 89 had been replaced by paul maclean and young guys (ogrodnick, veitch, and brent ashton most notably).

it wasn’t the 1995, 97, or 02 red wings, but that’s not a terrible team. the wheels, however, did fall off the wing the next year, when they disastrously traded oates for bernie federko’s corpse and the entire scoring line of klima, graves, and joe murphy for carson.

You bring up a good point now that I want to run by the forum/fans.....did Edmonton have any "chinks in the armor" so to speak that if Yzerman doesn't tear his PCL and plays in 88, not coming back for just 3 games....could the Wings at that point in time have upset the Oiler machine? I ask because they got to the 88 conference finals without him.....had he been there maybe the Wings could've "traded punches" with the offensive Oilers & maybe won some 6-4, 5-3 or 7-5 type games?

 

[The Panther]

You bring up a good point now that I want to run by the forum/fans.....did Edmonton have any "chinks in the armor" so to speak that if Yzerman doesn't tear his PCL and plays in 88, not coming back for just 3 games....could the Wings at that point in time have upset the Oiler machine? I ask because they got to the 88 conference finals without him.....had he been there maybe the Wings could've "traded punches" with the offensive Oilers & maybe won some 6-4, 5-3 or 7-5 type games?

Frankly, no. The Wings in '87 and even in '88 had no hope in hell against Edmonton. The Oilers in the '88 playoffs did machine-like executions of opponents.

 

[canuck2010]

His two way play and more importantly his incredible leadership ability are probably his two biggest attributes. These two things cannot be underestimated. Most teams can only dream of having a player like him on their team.

Just go back to the Salt Lake Olympics, the man couldn't walk without a cane, he played on one leg.

 

[Thenameless]

When he was in his offensive prime he was competing against Gretzky and Mario thus no harts or art ross trophies.
Another reason he is highly regarded is his transition into a leader and a defensive force.

This is the correct answer. There is no trophy collecting for other players in the Gretzky and Lemieux era. And eventually, he was able to shake the image of being a one-dimensional offensive force who was a playoff choker, into the exact opposite - a responsible two-way player, a leader, and a winner. Restecp.

 

[Sadekuuro]

Frankly, no. The Wings in '87 and even in '88 had no hope in hell against Edmonton. The Oilers in the '88 playoffs did machine-like executions of opponents.

To be fair they were an OT goal away from a 2-2 series in '88 (though it's hard to imagine them not getting calmly buried in Games 5 and 6 if they had gotten that goal).

 

[daver]

This is the correct answer. There is no trophy collecting for other players in the Gretzky and Lemieux era. And eventually, he was able to shake the image of being a one-dimensional offensive force who was a playoff choker, into the exact opposite - a responsible two-way player, a leader, and a winner. Restecp.

What do you think his Art Ross and Hart record would have been if Wayne and Mario were not around?

 

[Thenameless]

What do you think his Art Ross and Hart record would have been if Wayne and Mario were not around?

In this alternate universe I'd go with 3-5 scoring titles, but only 2 or 3 Hart Trophies. He might have a bit of a Jagr reputation of being an offense only guy so less Hart consideration.

 

[Theokritos]

What do you think his Art Ross and Hart record would have been if Wayne and Mario were not around?

Actual Hart finishes:	3, 4, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8
Gretzky & Lemieux removed:	1, 2, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Actual Scoring finishes:	3, 3, 4, 7, 8, 12, 13, 14
Gretzky & Lemieux removed:	1, 2, 3, 6, 6, 10, 11, 12

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[daver]

Actual Hart finishes:	3, 4, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8
Gretzky & Lemieux removed:	1, 2, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Actual Scoring finishes:	3, 3, 4, 7, 8, 12, 13, 14
Gretzky & Lemieux removed:	1, 2, 3, 6, 6, 10, 11, 12

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Thanks.

I think he is rated fairly in the HOH and that rating is based on those hypothetical finishes. His peak year certainly wasn't a complete anomaly but nor was it sustainable in comparison to players like Jagr or Esposito. While he should get full marks for becoming a great defensive player and contributing to his three Cups, he wasn't able to sustain an elite level of offense like Sakic or have a solid to very good 2-way game like Crosby did throughout his career.

 

[Datsyukian Deke]

They made it to the Conference Finals in '88 with Yzerman out of the line-up.

Amazing to recall that Bob Probert was the point leader of that playoff team, gotta love Probie!

 

[blogofmike]

Amazing to recall that Bob Probert was the point leader of that playoff team, gotta love Probie!

His 21 points were a single year playoff was a record for the Wings until Fedorov beat it in 1995.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

Thanks.

I think he is rated fairly in the HOH and that rating is based on those hypothetical finishes. His peak year certainly wasn't a complete anomaly but nor was it sustainable in comparison to players like Jagr or Esposito. While he should get full marks for becoming a great defensive player and contributing to his three Cups, he wasn't able to sustain an elite level of offense like Sakic or have a solid to very good 2-way game like Crosby did throughout his career.

I'll respectfully disagree as far as the offense/sustainable part of it matching up to Espo....as six consecutive 100 pt+ seasons has to have some clout? Have many of the "high end" offensive players cracked 100 for 6 straight? Then 95-96 was 95 points too.....I'd have to look but Burnaby Joe doesn't pass Stevie Y in 100 pt seasons I believe....I think Yzerman might even have more 50+ goal seasons? Granted Sakic's 50+ goal seasons came during cup runs so there is that....& to get 100 points at age 37 is pretty spectacular.

 

[whcanuck]

I might be in the minority here, but I actually liked 1983-94 Yzerman better than 1994-2006 Yzerman. I dug it when he was ripping off highlight reel goals and scoring like a madman. I understand completely why he changed his game, the guy won 3 championships doing it, but he was a scoring machine his first 8-10 years in the league and I loved it.

 

[Admiral Awesome]

I'd have to look but Burnaby Joe doesn't pass Stevie Y in 100 pt seasons I believe....I think Yzerman might even have more 50+ goal seasons? Granted Sakic's 50+ goal seasons came during cup runs so there is that....& to get 100 points at age 37 is pretty spectacular.

Both Yzerman and Sakic have six 100+point seasons. Stevie Y had four or five 50 goal seasons to Sakic's two, but it should be noted that Yzerman was potting 50+ goals when scoring was much higher across the league. Not taking anything away from him or anything (scoring 50+ in any era is impressive); I'm just saying those numbers need a bit more context.

 

[The Panther]

I might be in the minority here, but I actually liked 1983-94 Yzerman better than 1994-2006 Yzerman. I dug it when he was ripping off highlight reel goals and scoring like a madman. I understand completely why he changed his game, the guy won 3 championships doing it, but he was a scoring machine his first 8-10 years in the league and I loved it.

I prefer that Yzerman, too, just because he scored so many highlight reel goals. I remember one writer describing him after 1988-89 and saying that his goals were "more sculpted than scored".

 

[Jim MacDonald]

I might be in the minority here, but I actually liked 1983-94 Yzerman better than 1994-2006 Yzerman. I dug it when he was ripping off highlight reel goals and scoring like a madman. I understand completely why he changed his game, the guy won 3 championships doing it, but he was a scoring machine his first 8-10 years in the league and I loved it.

I wish I would've developed an interest in hockey/had it come into my life when I was 7, 8, 9 as oppose to 17, 18, 19 to learn/see what offensive dynamo Yzerman brought to the table....granted I'm EVER so thankful for the advent of YouTube in this regard!