What makes Yzerman rated so high

[Sens Rule]

I think that is debatable - but I had meant to single out intangible and defensive play during their playoff runs. Crosby was better offensively in 08-10 than Cup winning Yzerman, but Yzerman brought so much else to the table, and his defensive game was much better.

I think all signs point to Crosby continuing to develop his overall game, but it did not exist when he first started playing in the NHL.

Crosby has always had a good overall game. It keeps getting better but Crosby was NEVER a terrible defensive player and certainly was not in the two Cup Finals runs he was on.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Crosby has always had a good overall game. It keeps getting better but Crosby was NEVER a terrible defensive player and certainly was not in the two Cup Finals runs he was on.

Large difference between "terrible" and not as good in those areas as Yzerman. We'll agree to disagree upon the degree, but this is the first year I would say his overall game has been "good" and that is up from "better than average" from "average". Never terrible, but steady improvement in only a short amount of years. I just don't think he is winning a Selke any time soon, and certainly was not in previous years.

 

[Blizzard]

In what hypothetical world are Crosby and Lindbergh even remotely analogous to one another?

In the same one that put Crosby ahead of Yzerman already.

 

[Merya]

Yzerman's appreciation probably comes from him changing his game from scorer to solid twoway player to help his team win. And ofcource from stories of him playing with head half chopped off, with one leg and no arms.

I think he's overrated. It was coaching that got and taught him to change. In my usual very controversial opinion, Yzerman isn't even a top100 player without Bowman, and he never was the best player in his team when Detroit actually became great. Like Messier his leadership is also overrated.
But that's just me and my controversial opinions.

 

[Borlag]

Yzerman's appreciation probably comes from him changing his game from scorer to solid twoway player to help his team win. And ofcource from stories of him playing with head half chopped off, with one leg and no arms.

I think he's overrated. It was coaching that got and taught him to change. In my usual very controversial opinion, Yzerman isn't even a top100 player without Bowman, and he never was the best player in his team when Detroit actually became great. Like Messier his leadership is also overrated.
But that's just me and my controversial opinions.

Not even top100 despite doing something that only 2 others have been able to do? Right...

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I think he's overrated. It was coaching that got and taught him to change. In my usual very controversial opinion, Yzerman isn't even a top100 player without Bowman, and he never was the best player in his team when Detroit actually became great.

That's a bit beyond controversial. It's probably the first time ever I've seen someone's achievement in hockey disregarded because he's a coachable player. Every player gets coaching from peewee through to the NHL. Many, many greats had the privilege of being coached by great coaches, a lot of them in fact by Mr.Bowman himself.

Heck, if coaching is a negative and players are supposed to be born as a finished product you can throw out all the achievements of today's players given how coached these kids are today, going to summer hockey camps from age 5 on and stuff like that.

At the end of the day no matter what Bowman told him, Yzerman had to go and do it on the ice.

Also, Yzerman is a top 100 player on Cups and offensive peak alone. Leadership, defense and extreme longevity pushed him up on the lists into the 20s and 30s even. There's a very legitimate argument to be made that he shouldn't be in the top 20, you can argue about top 30 but top 100 you're just going too far. Bob Gainey and Dave Keon are in many top 100s in spite of no offensive peaks to speak of, purely on defense. Yzerman's offensive prowess was less than that of a Gretzky, Lemieux or maybe if you wish the Golden Jet and he may not have been a Gainey on D but if you combine the two parts of the game he's one of very few to earn an "amongst the league's best few" grade in both these areas for a good period of time. And that's a top 100 career easily.

 

[Epsilon]

To say Yzerman without Bowman is not a top 100 player is absurd. He would have been at worst a Marcel Dionne-type, probably better considering he already had a playoff better than any Dionne managed 3 seasons into his career, and only finished 20 points behind Dionne in career regular season totals.

 

[Strangle]

I meant no point in talking about it - silence or mute on the topic! Or maybe I meant moot. Thanks for the needed English lesson, really added to the hockey debate.

Just don't use words/phrases that you don't understand. It's really distracting and takes away a lot of the enjoyment of reading intelligently debated topics like this one.

 

[JackSlater]

Yzerman's appreciation probably comes from him changing his game from scorer to solid twoway player to help his team win. And ofcource from stories of him playing with head half chopped off, with one leg and no arms.

I think he's overrated. It was coaching that got and taught him to change. In my usual very controversial opinion, Yzerman isn't even a top100 player without Bowman, and he never was the best player in his team when Detroit actually became great. Like Messier his leadership is also overrated.
But that's just me and my controversial opinions.

Yzerman was at his peak before Bowman arrived, an his peak is a big part of his placement. If Bowman never arrived then Yzerman very likely takes a hit in all time rankings, but he would also have a few more years of high offensive finishes. He would still be top 100.

 

[Rhiessan71]

All I know is that 20 years from now when some know it all 15 year old's start posting ignorantly how Crosby is overrated that these same ignorant 15 year old's that are calling calling Yzerman overrated will be defending Crosby to them....I'll be laughing my ass off



Anyway...as far as coaching goes...WTF do you think Yzerman's previous coach's were having him do?
Those Wings teams were crap and if Stevie didn't score, they usually didn't win.
They not only encouraged Yzerman's offense, they NEEDED it!

All these reasons being presented as to why Yzerman is overrated are absurd and saying that he's not in the top 30 all-time let alone top 100 is an absolute joke and shows nothing but pure ignorance.

 

[Stephen]

In the same one that put Crosby ahead of Yzerman already.

Crosby should be ahead of Yzerman already based on what he's accomplished at such a young age. Let's put it this way, the legend of Yzerman says Yzerman had to learn to change his one dimensional offensive game to be a two way player in order to experience championship success. At one point, his offensive game wasn't conducive to team success at all: he was almost traded to Ottawa for Alexei Yashin. Crosby, won a cup about a decade ahead of schedule compared to Yzerman while still improving offensively while providing a responsible two way game, as well as experiencing success on the international stage and being one of the best two players in the game, no asterisk.

 

[Sens Rule]

All I know is that 20 years from now when some know it all 15 year old's start posting ignorantly how Crosby is overrated that these same ignorant 15 year old's that are calling calling Yzerman overrated will be defending Crosby to them....I'll be laughing my ass off



Anyway...as far as coaching goes...WTF do you think Yzerman's previous coach's were having him do?
Those Wings teams were crap and if Stevie didn't score, they usually didn't win.
They not only encouraged Yzerman's offense, they NEEDED it!

All these reasons being presented as to why Yzerman is overrated are absurd and saying that he's not in the top 30 all-time let alone top 100 is an absolute joke and shows nothing but pure ignorance.

Exactly. A Detroit Team whose best secondary scoring might come from Petr Klima and who had Probert and Gallant on the first line with Steve Yzerman needed every bit of offensive production possible for Yzerman to produce.

I think it was only for a year or two as Yzerman transitioned from his offence first years to his stronger two way years (and also dealt with debilitating Knee injuries) that there was any issue with what his role was on the Wings. Until the Wings got lots of depth and talent Yzerman's role was to play 23-25 minutes a night and focus nearly entirely on offence. That is what the coach wanted, that is what made the Wings the most likely to win games. As the Wings got better, Yzerman needed to change his style and focus to both sides of the ice. And he did.

The same thing happens with Coffey. So many posters here criticize his defensive play, missing the entire fact that Coffey WAS SUPPOSED to focus moreso on offence. He played the first dozen or so years of his career with Gretzky and then Mario. His role was to make them MORE DEADLY. Coffey also focused more on both ends of the ice in Detroit on deeper Wings teams, when that is what he was asked to do.

 

[Blizzard]

Crosby should be ahead of Yzerman already based on what he's accomplished at such a young age. Let's put it this way, the legend of Yzerman says Yzerman had to learn to change his one dimensional offensive game to be a two way player in order to experience championship success. At one point, his offensive game wasn't conducive to team success at all: he was almost traded to Ottawa for Alexei Yashin. Crosby, won a cup about a decade ahead of schedule compared to Yzerman while still improving offensively while providing a responsible two way game, as well as experiencing success on the international stage and being one of the best two players in the game, no asterisk.

When and if Crosby plays at least 10 seasons at or near his current pace then I have no problem putting him amongst the elite but I'm not prepared at this point to put him there above a guy with a 20 year career, three cups, impeccable intangibles, and the numbers Yzerman put up.

He could easily surpass Yzerman IF his career doesn't get derailed like Lindros or Lindbergh. I'm going by right now, not projections. You want to us a crystal ball then we can go back to Lindbergh and put him amongst the elite based on his first full NHL season and "assume" he would have done this or that eventhough in anybodys mind(including my own) he wasn't because potential doesn't always turn out the way you think or hope for a variety of reasons.

I'm a Pittsburgh fan so I hope Crosby has a long career and is mentioned amongst the greatest when he is done but it is premature to do that at this moment.

 

[Stephen]

Yes and no, I mean obviously longevity will enhance crosby's standing but he's accomplished everything once already. His accomplishments can be exclusive of longevity talk similar to an Orr, albeit at a lower standard.

 

[Merya]

That's a bit beyond controversial. It's probably the first time ever I've seen someone's achievement in hockey disregarded because he's a coachable player.

Was he more than averagely coachable (see below), or is it because Bowman is one of the best coaches ever? I see Yzerman's offense taking a dip in few years regardless, and I think most know I value longevity very high. (Longevity which I don't think Yzerman would've had to such extent.)
Also, does Detroid win any of those cups without Bowman?

"When Scotty Bowman took over as coach in 1993, Yzerman initially chafed under Bowman's stern coaching style. Bowman, for his part, felt that Yzerman was not concentrating enough on defense; Bowman had long expected his forwards to be good back-checkers as well. Relations between the two became so strained that at one point, the Red Wings seriously considered trading him".

ps. I admit I might be thinking too much about whatifs.
pps. And I do try to explain why I think as I think.

 

[Merya]

Not even top100 despite doing something that only 2 others have been able to do? Right...

There's a player whose done something noone else has been able to do (twice), yet isn't considered top100, or is borderline. He's also done something that only 3 others + tie have done.

 

[toob]

he is highly rated because of perception and reputation
as the guy whos done it all and won it all
and that is all very well deserved for Stevie Wonder Yzerman!

especially because after getting his due for a bit in the late 80s
he became really underrated in the early to mid 90s

every thing i read always ranks him very high now
unlike that Hockey News list in 98 which criminally underrated him

top #6 player - The Hockey News: Top 60 since 1967
top #8 center - The Hockey News: Top 100 Players by Postion
top #3 center (modern era) - Hockey Night in Canada: Best of the Best
best #19 - Sports Illustrated/Hockey Night in Canada/NHL.com plus more
and so on... about time i say

he was one of the absolute best offensive players the game has ever seen
had every skill and talent imaginable
fully loaded shot selection: hard and accurate
skating: fast and extremely agile
excellent puck control and incredibly sick stickhandling
plus he was just really smart - great hockey sense and vision
he could play with any kind of player and make them better

then later he became one among the great defensive forwards
when he got older and injuries caught up to him
and the teamstyle and the league in general changed to be defensive

but it is not like he wasnt still scoring
he was still a ppg player who was becoming old and frequently hurt
and playing on a team that rolled four lines and played conservative

oh and similarily he didnt exactly suck at D when he was younger
he killed penalties and won faceoffs back then too - very hard worker
just more focused on scoring because he was one of the best ever at it

he played in different eras and adapted and excelled
high scoring era then defensive era then post lockout
even in the latter he eventually went on a tear at the end

he played with different coaches and did the same
Jacques Demers made him the single star to carry the team
Bryan Murray kept him the main star but had other stars
Scotty made team D the star but Stevie still rose to the top of it

he played through injuries and team drama and trade rumors
while always doing and saying the right things

he was snubbed by Canada in 87 and 91
even though he played in 84 and was so good in the WC later
but he didnt snub them back in 96 or 98 or 02

Sidney Crosby is an amazing player
and he will probably be an all time great when he hangs them up
but not only does he not have the career consistency and longevity
he also hasnt reached Yzerman at his best yet... even in this year

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Was he more than averagely coachable (see below), or is it because Bowman is one of the best coaches ever? I see Yzerman's offense taking a dip in few years regardless, and I think most know I value longevity very high. (Longevity which I don't think Yzerman would've had to such extent.)
Also, does Detroid win any of those cups without Bowman?.

Bowman was a fantastic coach but there's about two dozen Hall of Famers who all played under Bowman at one point, you can't just dismiss them all, can you? And who knows what other players took from legendary coaches like Toe Blake or Jack Adams.

Here's a list of players coached by Bowman:

Nick Lidstrom
Steve Yzerman
Sergei Fedorov
Larry Murphy
Luc Robitaille
Brett Hull
Dominik Hasek
Chris Chelios
Brendan Shanahan
Igor Larionov
Dino Ciccarelli
Paul Coffey
Mario Lemieux
Jaromir Jagr
Ron Francis
Mark Recchi
Kevin Stevens
Bryan Trottier
Joe Mullen
Dave Andreychuk
Phil Housley
Clark Gillies
Wilf Paiement
Gilbert Perreault
Danny Gare
Rick Martin
Guy Lafleur
Steve Shutt
Larry Robinson
Jacques Lemaire
Guy Lapointe
Bob Gainey
Serge Savard
Rod Langway
Ken Dryden
Yvan Cournoyer
Pete Mahovlich
J.C. Tremblay
Rogatien Vachon
Doug Harvey
Glenn Hall

Bowman bullied Yzerman into becoming a more defense-oriented player, that's true. But it's not like Bowman could literally turn Yzerman into a great defensive player at the age of 30 if Yzerman wasn't a supremely gifted talent himself.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

he is highly rated because of perception and reputation
as the guy whos done it all and won it all
and that is all very well deserved for Stevie Wonder Yzerman!

especially because after getting his due for a bit in the late 80s
he became really underrated in the early to mid 90s

every thing i read always ranks him very high now
unlike that Hockey News list in 98 which criminally underrated him

top #6 player - The Hockey News: Top 60 since 1967
top #8 center - The Hockey News: Top 100 Players by Postion
top #3 center (modern era) - Hockey Night in Canada: Best of the Best
best #19 - Sports Illustrated/Hockey Night in Canada/NHL.com plus more
and so on... about time i say

he was one of the absolute best offensive players the game has ever seen
had every skill and talent imaginable
fully loaded shot selection: hard and accurate
skating: fast and extremely agile
excellent puck control and incredibly sick stickhandling
plus he was just really smart - great hockey sense and vision
he could play with any kind of player and make them better

then later he became one among the great defensive forwards
when he got older and injuries caught up to him
and the teamstyle and the league in general changed to be defensive

but it is not like he wasnt still scoring
he was still a ppg player who was becoming old and frequently hurt
and playing on a team that rolled four lines and played conservative

oh and similarily he didnt exactly suck at D when he was younger
he killed penalties and won faceoffs back then too - very hard worker
just more focused on scoring because he was one of the best ever at it

he played in different eras and adapted and excelled
high scoring era then defensive era then post lockout
even in the latter he eventually went on a tear at the end

he played with different coaches and did the same
Jacques Demers made him the single star to carry the team
Bryan Murray kept him the main star but had other stars
Scotty made team D the star but Stevie still rose to the top of it

he played through injuries and team drama and trade rumors
while always doing and saying the right things

he was snubbed by Canada in 87 and 91
even though he played in 84 and was so good in the WC later
but he didnt snub them back in 96 or 98 or 02

Sidney Crosby is an amazing player
and he will probably be an all time great when he hangs them up
but not only does he not have the career consistency and longevity
he also hasnt reached Yzerman at his best yet... even in this year

Agree with everything except the bolded part. Since 2007 Crosby has been better than Yzerman at his best, and honestly this year it wasn't really close.

 

[seventieslord]

he is highly rated because of perception and reputation
as the guy whos done it all and won it all
and that is all very well deserved for Stevie Wonder Yzerman!

especially because after getting his due for a bit in the late 80s
he became really underrated in the early to mid 90s

every thing i read always ranks him very high now
unlike that Hockey News list in 98 which criminally underrated him

top #6 player - The Hockey News: Top 60 since 1967
top #8 center - The Hockey News: Top 100 Players by Postion
top #3 center (modern era) - Hockey Night in Canada: Best of the Best
best #19 - Sports Illustrated/Hockey Night in Canada/NHL.com plus more
and so on... about time i say

he was one of the absolute best offensive players the game has ever seen
had every skill and talent imaginable
fully loaded shot selection: hard and accurate
skating: fast and extremely agile
excellent puck control and incredibly sick stickhandling
plus he was just really smart - great hockey sense and vision
he could play with any kind of player and make them better

then later he became one among the great defensive forwards
when he got older and injuries caught up to him
and the teamstyle and the league in general changed to be defensive

but it is not like he wasnt still scoring
he was still a ppg player who was becoming old and frequently hurt
and playing on a team that rolled four lines and played conservative

oh and similarily he didnt exactly suck at D when he was younger
he killed penalties and won faceoffs back then too - very hard worker
just more focused on scoring because he was one of the best ever at it

he played in different eras and adapted and excelled
high scoring era then defensive era then post lockout
even in the latter he eventually went on a tear at the end

he played with different coaches and did the same
Jacques Demers made him the single star to carry the team
Bryan Murray kept him the main star but had other stars
Scotty made team D the star but Stevie still rose to the top of it

he played through injuries and team drama and trade rumors
while always doing and saying the right things

he was snubbed by Canada in 87 and 91
even though he played in 84 and was so good in the WC later
but he didnt snub them back in 96 or 98 or 02

Sidney Crosby is an amazing player
and he will probably be an all time great when he hangs them up
but not only does he not have the career consistency and longevity
he also hasnt reached Yzerman at his best yet... even in this year

this looks like a poem.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Agree with everything except the bolded part. Since 2007 Crosby has been better than Yzerman at his best, and honestly this year it wasn't really close.

All he was saying is that Crosby has yet to match Stevie's peak and he's quite correct.
That's offensively and defensively btw as Steve actually had two separate and distinct peaks, one for each and Sid hasn't matched either yet.

MAYBE Sid might of come close this season but it didn't happen. He got injured and couldn't do it.
Just the same as Yzerman, he got injured and couldn't match his 155, 127 or 137 point seasons after either.


Either way, this thread shouldn't be about Sid vs Yzerman. That particular thread is another decade and more away.


Yzerman is who he is period.
6th All-time points
8th All-time goals
13th All-time games played
Longest serving Captain in League history
3 Cups
1 Pearson
1 Conn Smythe
1 Selke
1 Masterson
Only 2 players have scored more in a Season.

Once again I say Overrated my ass, give your heads a shake ffs!

 

[JackSlater]

Agree with everything except the bolded part. Since 2007 Crosby has been better than Yzerman at his best, and honestly this year it wasn't really close.

Crosby wasn't at Yzerman's 1989 level until this season, and it was still only half a season.

 

[canucks4ever]

Crosby wasn't at Yzerman's 1989 level until this season, and it was still only half a season.

Thier 3 best seasons are pretty much the same based on adjusted stats. Yzerman shouldn't get extra credit for playing in a high scoring era.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I agree crosby hasn't come close to yzerman's career, but I think it's pretty silly to say he hasn't at least matched his peak. For the last 5 years, Crosby and ovechkin have been the two best forwards in the world by a pretty good amount. Not every season, but over the stretch of seasons. Was yzerman ever at that level compared to his non-Gretzky/Lemieux peers for that long?

It's also worth noting that Europeans didn't come over en mass until yzerman's offensive prime was almost over, and Crosby has already been the leading Canadian score three times before this current season.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I agree crosby hasn't come close to yzerman's career, but I think it's pretty silly to say he hasn't at least matched his peak. For the last 5 years, Crosby and ovechkin have been the two best forwards in the world by a pretty good amount. Not every season, but over the stretch of seasons. Was yzerman ever at that level compared to his non-Gretzky/Lemieux peers for that long?

It's also worth noting that Europeans didn't come over en mass until yzerman's offensive prime was almost over, and Crosby has already been the leading Canadian score three times before this current season.

I beg to differ.
Sid was on his way to possibly matching Stevie's peak this year but he didn't.
I'm not even talking about the actual 155 points really either. I'm talking about what Yzerman was all about that year and this year was the first time Sid has reached that level of play. What it was like to watch him play that year.
Sid's been good, very good so far, better than Stevie's first years in the league even but he, straight up, has not matched that peak yet period.
And yes I agree he looked like he was going to this year but it just didn't happen, sorry.