ziggyjoe212
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82 games is a long time, and Horny plays a physical style. If he plays 70 games a season I consider that a huge success.
What happens with Hornqvist?
- Thread starter cassius
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What I'm curious is what teams do we think are on Horny's 8 team NTC list? I'm thinking Ottawa and Detroit for sure, possibly NJ, LA, San Jose and maybe Anaheim, and probably the Jets.I was being snarky.Sorry.
I want Hornqvist shopped heavily, and have for a while. If we can get back a solid return, or even clear some cap, do it. We have Rust and Kapanen as the top-6 RWs, we have a guy in Poulin who many think could be ready for 3rd line duty.
I just don't see how anyone can argue that it's worth spending ~$5.5 million AAV on a guy who is effectively a 3rd liner and PP specialist on this team. Rust is Geno's RW. Hornqvist and Sid don't play together, and never will. Horny's a 3rd liner, plain and simple. And for all the discussion of Hornqvist's value on the PP--well, our PP sucks. It sucks with him, it sucks without him. If moving the guy forced a change in approach, maybe we'd actually see guys moving their feet, getting PKers moving to open up passing/shooting lanes, etc. instead of just planting roots and allowing guys to close gaps and making the PKers' job easy as Hell.
This leaves a team like Calgary open, which could work because he is something that they could use, if only he was 10 years younger. However at his age, we might not like what the return is. But the point of trading Horny isn't necessarily about the return, as much as it is about the cap space.
he has a full NTC this upcoming season so he doesn’t need an eight team list...but if he had one, most of the Canadian teams would be on it, as would Buffalo and Detroit...he knows the Pens would never trade him in the Metro so there’s no need to put NJD on any list...
I see that now, his M-NTC kicks in next year. So that makes things even more difficult. Well there is a chance he would waive to go back to Nashville.
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
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The top six is arguably the deepest it's been in a while, but I don't think the state of the bottom six and our defense corps would qualify as "as stacked as any team in the league".
ziggyjoe212
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Letang and Dumo are still great. Marino is a very solid #3. I think our top 3 is definitely one of the best.
Pettersson is a meh #4, but it could be much worse. Plus, defense is a team effort.
It depends on whether he's soured a little on things in Pittsburgh.
If he has, then I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few more teams than Nashville for whom he'd be willing to waive.
JRS91
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I agree for the most part.
We have a solid top four, it's really just the bottom pairing that has been bad. Ever since they signed Hunwick, then traded Hunwick to make cap space for Jack Johnson the bottom pairing has been one of our weakest links. Even when Johnson was in the top four, we had Oleksiak and Gudbranson at points there. It's really odd what the Penguins saw in guys like Hunwick, Oleksiak, Johnson and Gudbranson. Especially as third pairing defensemen.
Honour Over Glory
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EightyOne
My posts are jokes. And hockey is just a game.
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That is where we differ. Because he aint making a big enough impact in those 70 games at 5 million dollars.
ChaosAgent
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Crosby and Malkin at 33 & 34 respectively just aren't as dangerous as they were 4-5 years ago. Malkin looked great in the regular season but disappeared in the POs (yes I'm aware of the injury but it's not like he'll be the picture of health moving forward...) So that alone downgrades them.
The winger crew is as good as we've had, but the system has fallen apart recently. So I can't crow about our forward crew on paper until I see them playing a different brand of hockey. If they go a half-dozen games without blowing chunks next year - and make no mistake, this team blew chunks all the way from late January through the pause and certainly through August - I'll maybe start thinking about how nice things are on paper.
Also our #4-6D are not good enough as you point out.
Ugene Magic
EVIL LAUGH
They only set up their legacy by bringing in a 3rd elite player, which is still what I think it'll take again.
ChaosAgent
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Like, I guess. The team caught lightning in a bottle in 2016 when Sully came in system-wise. Phil was a big help as one of the driving forces of L3 but he wouldn't be the biggest part of the "why'd we win" pie chart.
At even strength, Jake right now is better than Phil was. PP different story though.
Big Friggin Dummy
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I honestly don't think Hornqvist would play hardball with his NTC like Kessel did. I know guys and their agents get those clauses put in for a reason, but Hornqvist doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would refuse to go somewhere out of spite. Obviously he wouldn't want to end up at a bottom feeder like the Wings or Kings, but if a team closer to contention than we are wanted Hornqvist to put them over the top, I don't think he'd say no, and I don't think we'd have a hard time finding teams like that to send back assets to make the deal worthwhile.
It's more a matter of whether or not this is a thing we'd explore, which I don't think it is, sadly. I'm not dying to ship Hornqvist out or anything, he's a solid player, but his role on this team has shifted pretty dramatically since he signed his deal and I don't think it really lines up with his price point anymore.
It's more a matter of whether or not this is a thing we'd explore, which I don't think it is, sadly. I'm not dying to ship Hornqvist out or anything, he's a solid player, but his role on this team has shifted pretty dramatically since he signed his deal and I don't think it really lines up with his price point anymore.
Will Hunting
Immortal Adams
Hornqvist might not play a hardball with his NTC, but I don't think that anyone in the organization has the balls to tell him to waive it. Like I said, moving Hornqvist makes too much sense. Shakes up the room, cleans the capspace, gets us younger, gets us faster, avoids the risk to pay a questionable fit. But I really don't think it's even a discussion in our organization even though it should be one of the priorities. I would bet a lot that Hornqvist stays at least for the next season here.
ziggyjoe212
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To be honest I would not mind Oleksiak or Gudbranson in the third pairing because we truly lack size and grit on the team.
Gudbranson was just an okay top 4 dman for Anaheim. Oleksiak's been Dallas' best possession dman all season and is now in their top 4 for the playoffs as a result.
Either would do just fine on our bottom pairing and would be a vast improvement over what we just had out there.
Empoleon8771
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They should never have traded Oleksiak in the first place
They should never have traded Oleksiak in the first place
see this...
Mailbag: Why didn’t Ian Cole and Jamie Oleksiak work out with the Penguins?
Dipsy Doodle
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They should never have traded Oleksiak in the first place
Oleksiak was serviceable, that's about it. Not really a player to pine for, though he would've been better than JJ (who wouldn't?)
Cole on the other hand...
JRS91
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No thanks.
Oleksiak might work in a different system, I don't think he would've worked here. They wanted him to be an enforcer, something he never was, I don't miss him at all. The issue with the Penguins since 2017 has been they're trying to be something they're not, they've tried to replace guys who work with our team with guys who never fit here.
ziggyjoe212
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Pens aren't a fast, dominant team anymore. They don't have scoring depth like 2016. Sid and Geno aren't dominant players like they were 10 years ago.
This is a different team trying to win the same way as in 2016-2017. They need to adapt to what they have. And to be honest they have a solid roster on paper. Coaching and lack of youth is the issue IMO.
Probably the former more than the latter, if only because young legs aren't going to overcome the competitive disadvantage the coach has been putting players in when the games really count against teams that trap and collapse low in the defensive end.
JRS91
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They definitely can be a fast team.
They're 3 years removed from winning a Stanley Cup. Crosby and Malkin are still top ten players in this league. Guentzel is a top 10 LW. Zucker has been a solid addition. They still have a good team, the issue is they've wasted assets on trying to be something they're not. Namely trying to get tougher to teach Tom Wilson a lesson.
Rutherford traded down 20 spots in 2017 along with trading a potential 3rd line center for Ryan Reaves. This was all the while knowing that they probably weren't going to re-sign Bonino, and for what? The chance Reaves fights Tom Wilson? Tom Wilson never played a game against Reaves when he was with the Penguins, their third line suffered. They had Oleksiak and thought "Well he's a decent 3rd pairing defenseman and is big enough to fight, let's try to make him an enforcer". It didn't work out.
Reaves became expendable, was shipped off to Vegas. The Penguins desperately needed a third line center, so they traded for Brassard; a trade I didn't mind at the time because hindsight is 20/20. They lost Ian Cole a guy they could've very well used especially against the Capitals in the playoffs. Speaking of the Capitals and Tom Wilson, Tom Wilson ended up hitting Aston-Reese, breaking his jaw, laughed about it and went to the bench. The Penguins lost that series and Tom Wilson won the Stanley Cup. Rutherford really showed him! Then after talking Oleksiak up a bunch, he proceeded to fight Tom Wilson the next season only to get knocked out with one punch then immediately shipped back to Dallas.
Oleksiak was never the enforcer they wanted or needed. I agree, would I rather have Oleksiak now than Jack Johnson? Of course, I'll take Matt Hunwick back over Jack Johnson, but just because you have something bad doesn't mean you pine for something not very good. Olekisak was an "ok" 3rd pairing defenseman when he was here, he was slow, and was forced into a role he just wasn't fit to play. If they're trying to play like they did in 2016-2017, they aren't doing a very good job. Instead of looking towards youth for depth scoring like they did in 2016 and 2017 they're trading 2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks for guys like Marleau. They're giving up on good young controllable talent like Kahun and swapping him for guys like Sheary. Living in the past and trying to trade back for guys that helped you win in 2017, isn't the same as what they did in 2016 and 2017. They're making the same mistakes that Shero and Bylsma made, they're trading draft picks, mismanaging assets, reluctant to recall players from the AHL, and overpaying for veteran retreads.
If Penguins ownership/management felt Hornqvist's cap hit was an issue they could use the buyout option and save 3,533,333 per on the cap the next 3 seasons.
