Post-Game Talk: We're Horrible. Except for Nylander.... And Brown | Leafs fall to Sabres

[pspot]

anyone who was expecting Babcock to come in and change the culture and motivate players is setting themselves up

he establishes a system and expectations. He supposedlyholds players accountable to this. Over a period of time (years) they will find payers that are willing and able to do this. those who can't or won't are moved.

what to expect is that the majority of player from last year will not be able to do this and will be moved eventually.....but it will take time.

 

[WTFMAN99]

anyone who was expecting Babcock to come in and change the culture and motivate players is setting themselves up

he establishes a system and expectations. He supposedlyholds players accountable to this. Over a period of time (years) they will find payers that are willing and able to do this. those who can't or won't are moved.

what to expect is that the majority of player from last year will not be able to do this and will be moved eventually.....but it will take time.

Some will struggle to be patient, even I have to remind myself sometimes this is a long process.

A lot of people want instant gratification but the reality is it does take time to get the right players in place to build a sustainable winner.

 

[pspot]

Some will struggle to be patient, even I have to remind myself sometimes this is a long process.

A lot of people want instant gratification but the reality is it does take time to get the right players in place to build a sustainable winner.

possibly even to the point where at this point, so early in the process, where we assume the team will be at its worst point....maybe you do send a guy like Nylande back to the Marlies. at least for he first half of the season.

Let him lead a team, be a part and create a more positive environment of how things will be on the leafs

then as you think guys like Bozak, Phanuef, JVR? Kadri? Lupul? are moved he comes up. team is already out of it so no expecations of being saviour and babcock continues his development

 

[hfman]

wait a minute, the Leafs lost to the Sabres again? That just means things are falling right back into place!! Things are back to normal

 

[Daisy Jane]

Surprisingly, no! I have no idea what's going on with them.

that is so weird. I honestly thought they got cut!
hm. the n yeah i want those guys to play on Friday.

 

[Guy Boucher]

here is a legitimate question:

if they couldn't do it for Wilson
if they couldn't do it for Carlyle
it they couldn't (or just "supply teachered - which imo is worse) for Horachek

why is it just "poof" Babcock will make them better.
something what you see if what you get.
just say thanks, and move on

Babcock has a much worse lineup than those coaches too.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Daisy has seen the light!

i wanted Dion gone too. where I always disagreed with you was that Kessel had to stay/Dion had to go. Both had to. I hope Lou makes him disappear this season

 

[BurnsBlue]

I wouldnt keep any of our young highly skilled guys with the leafs to start the season just because of how bad we will be. Id like to see most of them down on the marlies for atleast half the season but marner and brown are making a very solid case to stay up.

Marner has already been cut.

 

[Guy Boucher]

Q: When do you want to get down to one group?

Babcock: Well, [..] we practiced with one group yesterday, and we'll continue to look at it. But I thought Nylander and Brown were the two best forwards tonight. I don't know you were watching, what'd you think?

Q: Does that mean they get another opportunity?

Babcock: I don't know for sure. It's what the bus ride's for, it's what the game tape is for.

Q: Connor has pretty good vision, doesn't he, Mike?

Babcock: I think they're both real good players. Now, they're kids, so, when you got good veterans leading the way and showing them how to play, and they know what they're doing, it's different, but you just can't count on kids to do it. We have to get our veterans playing the right way.


It's very (and deliberately) ambiguous whether Nylander is going to be sent to the AHL. He's still very much in the mix for the opening night roster.

Translation: Nylander and Brown are awesome and if the vets on this team were actually good at hockey, I might keep them around but I need to get them as far away as possible from this mess.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Translation: Nylander and Brown are awesome and if the vets on this team were actually good at hockey, I might keep them around but I need to get them as far away as possible from this mess.

We don't have much in the way of mentors or guys to insulate them.

 

[Mess]

Babcock has a much worse lineup than those coaches too.

Babcock always said. "There will be pain" and he knew that before the team took the ice.

So he knew and expected this as a talent evaluator that he was inheriting a mess in player personnel.

I wonder if he thinks it worse than he originally thought.

This game he said Nylander & Brown were the best players and called out his vets.

 

[TheProspector]

We don't have much in the way of mentors or guys to insulate them.

The players in the AHL aren't better.

 

[WTFMAN99]

The players in the AHL aren't better.

Nylander and Brown don't need insulating at the AHL level, they are 1st liners there. We have fighters down there, good goaltending and defense. Our AHL team should be great this season, I will enjoy going to the Ricoh this year.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Translation: Nylander and Brown are awesome and if the vets on this team were actually good at hockey, I might keep them around but I need to get them as far away as possible from this mess.

and I have to find a way to tell them, it's really, legitimately not them, it's this team.

 

[-DeMo-]

In my estimation and I could be wrong -
he plays powerplay (because he wants to)
the penalty kill and his minutes

for what he is being paid, and being a #1 defenseman, I'd imagine playing 25+ minutes should be a given . I personally don 't see it as being overworked. I see it as expected.

and again:
Fault: he is slow
Fault: he thinks slow
Fault: he gets tired (his words) - so therefore that's an issue
Fault: when the team gets bad, his personal play implodes as well.

that - isn't being part of a bad team. that's on Dion. Those aren't perceived, that's what is. A bad team doesn't make him skater slower.



ah.

one thing I will say in terms of Dion's 25+ minutes is that it's alot tougher to play 25 mins in your own zone then spending time in the offensive end espcially for a Dmen. alot of the top Dmen who play 25+ mins probably spend half there time standing on the offensive blue line, well standing's probably not the right word but you know what I mean those are alot easier minutes then constantly being under pressure and being forced to play Defense probably 90% of the game.

not defending Dion he needs to be traded and isn't a #1 Dmen anymore but I think you need to take that into consideration when looking at his minutes.

 

[Zybalto]

Gotta stop dumping on Phaneuf after a night when he was good. If he played all year the way he did last night, I'd be good with it. Moved the puck well, played good defence and threw a big hit that drew a penalty trying to wake up the brutal top two lines.

He wasnt that good in the previous games (although Hunwick didnt do him any favours) and deserves to be criticized for his play then but some around here show their agendas when they dump on him when the does well. If Phaneuf had played as poorly as Rielly did last night, there would be an online petition to trade him, I swear.

The vets on the top lines should be the focus of any rage around here and talking about Phaneuf in a negative light based on his play last night is a waste of time.

 

[Bobs your uncle]

This is what a rebuild looks like. Hopefully this will end the "Leafs will make the playoffs" chatter.
The Leafs remind me of cars seen in Cuba. They are a team of mixed parts cannabilized from other teams, held together with duct tape & wire. Even the best mechanic can only do so much. He isn't going to transform an old '74 Ford Pinto into a Porsche simply thru hard work. Fans said they they wanted a tear down and were prepared for a rebuild period. Saying it and witnessing it night after night are two different things. Babcock knew what he was getting into, he clearly said "there will be pain". There will be a lot of nights both this season and next that will be dreadful to watch and very humbling. This is year one of possibly 5-6 year rebuild. Be prepared to be patient and experience all the challenges a rebuild entails. P A I N.

 

[WTFMAN99]

This is what a rebuild looks like. Hopefully this will end the "Leafs will make the playoffs" chatter.
The Leafs remind me of cars seen in Cuba. They are a team of mixed parts cannabilized from other teams, held together with duct tape & wire. Even the best mechanic can only do so much. He isn't going to transform an old '74 Ford Pinto into a Porsche simply thru hard work. Fans said they they wanted a tear down and were prepared for a rebuild period. Saying it and witnessing it night after night are two different things. Babcock knew what he was getting into, he clearly said "there will be pain". There will be a lot of nights both this season and next that will be dreadful to watch and very humbling. This is year one of possibly 5-6 year rebuild. Be prepared to be patient and experience all the challenges a rebuild entails. P A I N.

Well put

 

[Darkside Blue]

seriously. sometimes I know the theory is try to get something - but at this point just send them to the Marlies. if we put them on waivers, and someone claims them, yay! if not, well yeah we're paying them, but at least they're not up here.

I can't help but think this is a serious discussion going on with the Shanaclan - keep the guys who will work, regardless of age, and send the deadwood to whoever will have them, Marlies or wherever.

 

[SprDaVE]

This is what a rebuild looks like. Hopefully this will end the "Leafs will make the playoffs" chatter.
The Leafs remind me of cars seen in Cuba. They are a team of mixed parts cannabilized from other teams, held together with duct tape & wire. Even the best mechanic can only do so much. He isn't going to transform an old '74 Ford Pinto into a Porsche simply thru hard work. Fans said they they wanted a tear down and were prepared for a rebuild period. Saying it and witnessing it night after night are two different things. Babcock knew what he was getting into, he clearly said "there will be pain". There will be a lot of nights both this season and next that will be dreadful to watch and very humbling. This is year one of possibly 5-6 year rebuild. Be prepared to be patient and experience all the challenges a rebuild entails. P A I N.

Well said.

I think the most frustrating part about this part of the rebuild is that we still have a lot of players from the previous core that are around and it doesn't look like they leave anytime soon. This is what is the most frustrating.

The management team vowed to make changes, both at the roster level and philosophy level of their management team. For the most, they have achieved that with their moves made... but only trading Kessel out of all the core players and making fairly minimal roster changes after what the said over the summer is very disappointing.

Sure not all of the players have value but I think they definitely had some value back for most players we have but they want to make sure they have the best value. That's, again, very frustrating to watch essentially the same team make the same mistakes and play incredibly bad despite having one of the best coaches in the league pushing them.

All that said, it's pre-season. We'll see how bad it is by the end of October.

 

[Mess]

The Buffalo Sabres outscored the Leafs 10-4 in this 2 game preseason match set.

 

[pspot]

Well said.

I think the most frustrating part about this part of the rebuild is that we still have a lot of players from the previous core that are around and it doesn't look like they leave anytime soon. This is what is the most frustrating.

The management team vowed to make changes, both at the roster level and philosophy level of their management team. For the most, they have achieved that with their moves made... but only trading Kessel out of all the core players and making fairly minimal roster changes after what the said over the summer is very disappointing.

Sure not all of the players have value but I think they definitely had some value back for most players we have but they want to make sure they have the best value. That's, again, very frustrating to watch essentially the same team make the same mistakes and play incredibly bad despite having one of the best coaches in the league pushing them.

All that said, it's pre-season. We'll see how bad it is by the end of October.

I'm thinking players like phanuef. Lupul and Bozak s value was so low it made more sense to wait

There was/is no urgency to make a move

Hopefully Bozak can prove to effective without Kessel. Lupul can stay healthy and phanuef play better within a more supportive defensive system

All those things would increase value

Imo jvr and kadri will be gone too...eventually this season

 

[egd27]

This is what a rebuild looks like. Hopefully this will end the "Leafs will make the playoffs" chatter.
The Leafs remind me of cars seen in Cuba. They are a team of mixed parts cannabilized from other teams, held together with duct tape & wire. Even the best mechanic can only do so much. He isn't going to transform an old '74 Ford Pinto into a Porsche simply thru hard work. Fans said they they wanted a tear down and were prepared for a rebuild period. Saying it and witnessing it night after night are two different things. Babcock knew what he was getting into, he clearly said "there will be pain". There will be a lot of nights both this season and next that will be dreadful to watch and very humbling. This is year one of possibly 5-6 year rebuild. Be prepared to be patient and experience all the challenges a rebuild entails. P A I N.

Perhaps too many expected a "stub your toe" pain rather than a "herniated disc" or "passing a kidney stone" pain.

 

[SprDaVE]

I'm thinking players like phanuef. Lupul and Bozak s value was so low it made more sense to wait

There was/is no urgency to make a move

Hopefully Bozak can prove to effective without Kessel. Lupul can stay healthy and phanuef play better within a more supportive defensive system

All those things would increase value

Imo jvr and kadri will be gone too...eventually this season

My urgency level was through the roof this off-season. I have no idea why they think they can wait. I'm not sure what else is there to increase when the roster is just going to get worst.

Take what you can and move on, unless there's absolutely nothing in value, like Lupul likely has.

Whatever though. I'm sure they'll figure it out. This is why we got Lamoriello, the Hall of famer, to find homes to these players to **** off too.

 

[Mess]

Well said.

I think the most frustrating part about this part of the rebuild is that we still have a lot of players from the previous core that are around and it doesn't look like they leave anytime soon. This is what is the most frustrating..

That's certainly my highest level of frustration that they promised "scorched earth" and it requires extended patience to clean up this mess and nobody is lining up to take our overpaid, underperforming vets and there is no market to get them out any time soon and get the kids in so we can start seeing improvement.

The only thing really watchable and enjoyable about this game last night was how well Nylander and Brown performed. If/when they get cut this team is going to be hard to watch on many nights.