Post-Game Talk: Well I'm Freeeeeeee, Freeeee Fallin'... Pens -1, CBJ-2

[billybudd]

Ya we just disagree on BB. You have an agenda and its not really worth the time to debate after your last attempt to use advanced stats in such a bogus way.

Comeau has made well over half a dozen atrocious plays in the NZ in the last three games, and he just cost them the game last night. This has been a bad habit of his going back to Col.

Once again accountability is what matters. Unforced mental mistakes from Bort and Comeau cost them the game last night. Just like it cost them against the Caps. None of those goals in the last two games had anything to do with guys being outmuscled by some Toxic Avenger looking mfer.

They need to find the right blend of skill and grit, but most importantly they must have guys on board willing to play the system. They don't need 19 mutants knuckle dragging around the ice.

Lack of muscle isn't why pucks end up in our net and I never said it was. Hell, hardly any pucks do end up there unless Greiss is in. There's no "getting scored on" problem on this team to even look for causes, especially in the first two periods.

It IS why we don't score and have poor third periods. The other team's players are fresh as a daisy because they've taken no damage and not been asked to expend as much energy. Their D don't make bad passes because they don't have to look over their shoulders. Even if our guys were inclined to hit them, they won't make it in time, which the other team knows.

Our guys are anything but because they've been trying to power through illegal tactics and failing.

By the third period, it's not a level playing field between us and Florida/Wash/NYR/etc. It's just not.

In regards to Hoffman, Hoffman's very quick and very fast.

Speed was one of the only things that countered a strength deficit 5 on 5 the last time hockey was played as it is now. It's why Daigle had a renaissance season playing for the stingiest team in the league during the absolute worst of the dead puck era. It's why Dupuis had 50 points playing with defense-only forwards like Walz and Laaksonen. It's why Straka rediscovered his game.

The only one of our weak or undersized forwards who could be argued to be fast is Sutter, and he's not quick. If his wings were Hagelin and Grabner, instead of Spaling and Bennett, my guess is his line would get a lot of odd-mans and probably contribute at the level it needs to.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Thanks Randy!!!!!!!!!!

Can I use this as my avatar?

Edit:

Go for it!

 

[Giskard]

I love when we suck in February.

 

[MtlPenFan]

I feel like is Saad was on the Pens team, the people here would be telling us how soft he is and how he'll never be a top 6 player. He'd be a guy getting benched and playing on his offwing or on the 4th line. Instead he's averaging 17-18 minutes a game w/ talented players.



So you will throw out stats because you just don't feel like believing them. I don't care for stats either but I also don't just throw stuff out for fun.

If we cannot appreciate what Hornqvist does for a net front presence or completely buy into what Comeau is doing this season, I cannot help you. If you look at who is always in front of the net battling and creating space, it's #72. His game is so underrated and he's definitely a top 6 guy. Without him this year, we'd be in dire need of a guy who goes to the net. Like insanely dire need.

I've respected your opinion for a while now, but we are going to agree to disagree. You have the right to be frustrated with this team. The product on the ice SUCKS. I'm just asking you to step aside from your irrational frustration (That we all share) and look at some facts. That is all.

72 fills a huge need, but him creating havoc in front of the net is a trait that has more to do with will than anything having to do with ability. I hope you understand what I'm getting at. Dont' get me wrong because I appreciate what he does but again, with the puck on his stick in space, tell me what he's capable of doing to create?

Like it or not, Comeau has been jerked around the league for a reason. Finding a niche here is something I can appreciate, but unless he does it consistently from here until the end of the season, he's nothing more than a journeyman playing above his pay grade.

 

[ColePens]

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this statement because I just don't know how Saad would have fared as a Penguin. What are you suggesting here? That the Pens don't know how to develop forwards or that the culture here is different than Chicago?

I would say a mixture of both. Young players here are held to a different standard. I watched Beau in the warmups yesterday and he's skating by himself and looked miserable. I don't know if that's his ritual pre-game, but it looked as if the country club didn't allow him access. Then he's benched but we have Kunitz as a mainstay on L1.

I could just imagine Saad being here and doing his thing and the coaches calling him out for being soft while Sutter is praised religiously. If plays a big role in the locker room even if no words are said.

 

[Gurglesons]

72 fills a huge need, but him creating havoc in front of the net is a trait that has more to do with will than anything having to do with ability. I hope you understand what I'm getting at. Dont' get me wrong because I appreciate what he does but again, with the puck on his stick in space, tell me what he's capable of doing to create?

Like it or not, Comeau has been jerked around the league for a reason. Finding a niche here is something I can appreciate, but unless he does it consistently from here until the end of the season, he's nothing more than a journeyman playing above his pay grade.

So, you want more physicality and grit, but you are going to criticize Hornqvist?

Hornqvist doesn't need to create. Just by simply crashing the net like he does and on the flip side screening like he does he is creating. I would argue Hornqvist is a more important winger than Perron for our team right now. Both were needed, but Hornqvist provides something we haven't seen Kunitz provide in years.

 

[lastcupever75]

Exactly right. The other problem is, this team simply doesn't have much talent either. I can't even put into words how much I hate Brandon Sutter. Spaling isn't far behind. I've seen a hypnotist to try and mentally block Craig Adams from my conscious.

Someone mentioned Chris Stewart. I'd guarantee this team would be a lot better if we had Farnham, Stewart and Chris Neil over Kunitz, Sutter/Spalling, and Adams.

crosby and malkin should be the only 2 out of 18 skaters who stray away from any physicality because they're so good. they put in they're share though which is more then I would ask. no excuses from anyone else.
with the assets we've traded, this team could have had kane, perron and stewart. added to some of the guys already on the roster.
not a "knuckle dragger" but far from getting pushed around like we do against the metro teams

 

[MtlPenFan]

It's the last three seasons and they won the cup because of additions of players like Carter and Gaborik who were always seen as players that weren't willing to "play the game the right way" and who were seen as "only showing up in the regular season."

Welp, both of those lead the team in goals during both of their cup wins. Gaborik in 2014. Carter tied with Kopi and Brown in 2012.

Maybe, you should actually watch the Kings before you comment on them?

This perceived notion that LA knocked out the opposition in every series is just ridiculous. I would argue every one of the teams they faced last year were more "physical" and "gritty" than the Kings. Maybe, you could make the argument that San Jose is a softer team.

Nobody's saying they knocked anyone out of anywhere. You telling me Chicago is a grittier team than LA is enough for me to end this conversation right now.

There's a difference between knocking teams out of the building and being able to "lean" on your opponents playing a big game. If you watch them as often as you say you do, you should be able to understand the difference.

 

[lastcupever75]

Lucic' cap hit is $6 million, more or less what the combination of Kunitz and Spaling cost us. Do you honestly believe we'd be worse off with Lucic here and those two not here?

Lucic is the Bruins' fifth-leading scorer, just four points behind Kunitz. Considering the system Boston plays and the fact he does NOT play with Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin, and then add the intangibles with a guy like Lucic (which are through the roof), do you really not see why a guy like him is exactly what we need?

It's not just that Lucic is 'scary' to play against, or that he can fight AND score as a top sixer...it's also because that guy gives a damn. He wears his heart on his sleeve. He would come here and change the room dynamic.

exactly. its the exact need this team needs

 

[billybudd]

Our top six in terms of size vs. LA's top six during the cup win.

Brown - 6'0 - Kopitar 6'3 - Gaborik - 6'1

vs.

Kunitz - 6'0 - Crosby 5'11 - Perron - 5'11

Pearson - 6'0 - Carter 6'4 - Toffoli - 6'1

vs.

Comeau - 6'0 - Malkin 6'3 - Hornqvist - 6'0

Also, please tell me when Stoll, Williams, Gaborik, Carter, etc. became "gritty" players. The LA Kings won because of skill. Doughty is a skill defenseman. Kopi is a skill center. Quick is one of the best goalies in the league. This media story that they won because they "outhit" other teams is ridiculous. If Vancouver would've beaten Boston in Game 6 or Game 7, this idea that you have to be "gritty" and "big" to win the cup would dissipate.

Now try the bottom six.

Kings aren't a skill team. They have a few very skilled players (Kopitar, Doughty, Voynov), but as a team, they win because they're bigger than you and lean on you. It's not a matter of hitting, so much as pushing, shoving, leaning, hooking, grabbing, slashing. If I had the time, I'd go goal by goal, because most of the ones they scored in that run involved someone winning a battle through some illegal tactic that required being stronger than another guy. Maybe all of them.

This came up the first time we played them. Someone tried to tell me the Kings were a fancy, high-wire act with skilled wings. Come in town and all they do is throw the puck at the goaltenders feet and slash and push us away from the play. Jump Malkin.

Furthermore, if some website says that Kunitz and Perron have the same mass as Brown and Gaborik/Williams, our numbers have been fudged considerably upwards.

The Hawks were not a big team. The Kings are not necessarily a "big" team especially now that they don't have Mitchell on D.

Hawks look the same as we do against the types of teams we struggle with. Crosby's pointless in 23 or 24 games. Kane's the same.

It's just not quite as bad because they're faster and have Bickell and Saad instead of Kunitz and Bennett.

 

[Gurglesons]

Nobody's saying they knocked anyone out of anywhere. You telling me Chicago is a grittier team than LA is enough for me to end this conversation right now.

There's a difference between knocking teams out of the building and being able to "lean" on your opponents playing a big game. If you watch them as often as you say you do, you should be able to understand the difference.

The Kings don't have a Shaw or a Keith level player. Maybe you could argue Brown, but he doesn't really play on an edge. The Blackhawks roster is much better than the Kings in terms of offense, and physicality. They were definitely the nastier team in the 2014 WCF.

 

[MtlPenFan]

So, you want more physicality and grit, but you are going to criticize Hornqvist?

Hornqvist doesn't need to create. Just by simply crashing the net like he does and on the flip side screening like he does he is creating. I would argue Hornqvist is a more important winger than Perron for our team right now. Both were needed, but Hornqvist provides something we haven't seen Kunitz provide in years.

Hornqvist is a need. A very necessary one, but calling him a typical top sixer is disingenuous.

 

[MtlPenFan]

The Kings don't have a Shaw or a Keith level player. The Blackhawks roster is much better than the Kings in terms of offense, and physicality. They were definitely the nastier team in the 2014 WCF.

Oh **** no.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Pens radio had a good segment in the 2 o'clock hour with Savran and Bourque. Hopefully they post a podcast.

A couple points he made... Pens lack leadership right now. Players need to be held accountable by their peers and the coaches. Demotions and/or scratches. Mentioned how Guerin wasn't afraid to call anyone out, regardless of who they were. Said he doesn't want to name names but called out the team's stars. He also said a big shake up of the roster should be on the table now.

He told an interesting story about '92. The team had a meeting with Patrick and many voiced concerns about Bowman. Bourque said 'we can't win with him.' At the end, CP said 'what you guys said is right, except for Bourque. You can and you will win with Bowman.'

Bourque said guys need to stand up, get out of our comfort zone, clear the air.

 

[blueliner18]

Fleury was the only reason the game was competitive after the 1st period.

Yeah... Fleury is the reason this team is above .500 right now. People always seem to pick on Fleury, but where would this team be without him this season. He has been the one steady piece on this team, and just who do the haters want to replace him with??? I didn't hear anything about Marty Brodeur or Patrick Roy finding the fountain of youth!!!!! Did Fleury have some terrible playoff games in past seasons?? Yeah sure, but how many of those seasons have the Pens played a responsible defensive style in front of him...? Anyone...anyone...Bueller?? It's effing tough to play goalie at any level when you're team leaves you on an island.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Pens radio had a good segment in the 2 o'clock hour with Savran and Bourque. Hopefully they post a podcast.

A couple points he made... Pens lack leadership right now. Players need to be held accountable by their peers and the coaches. Demotions and/or scratches. Mentioned how Guerin wasn't afraid to call anyone out, regardless of who they were. Said he doesn't want to name names but called out the team's stars. He also said a big shake up of the roster should be on the table now.

He told an interesting story about '92. The team had a meeting with Patrick and many voiced concerns about Bowman. Bourque said 'we can't win with him.' At the end, CP said 'what you guys said is right, except for Bourque. You can and you will win with Bowman.'

Bourque said guys need to stand up, get out of our comfort zone, clear the air.

Ya I heard it, and to that I say Bourque should **** himself. Phil Bourque had no business telling bosses that the best coach in the history of sports was a bad thing for that gang.

If Scotty had hung around, we may have been the 'Wings.

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh **** no.

Eh. I think LA has a lot of the same issues the Pens do in the regular season. They have obviously changed that in two of the last three post seasons. The issue is watch their performance in 2013. They lost that series physically. It lead to a lot of speculations that players like Kopitar were injured.

Every time I've watched Chicago play a team like Los Angeles or St. Louis it is ridiculous. They flip a switch. Seabrook, Keith, Hjalmarsson, and then their forward group with Smith, Shaw, and Saad.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Ya I heard it, and to that I say Bourque should **** himself. Phil Bourque had no business telling bosses that the best coach in the history of sports was a bad thing for that gang.

If Scotty had hung around, we may have been the 'Wings.

Yeah, that definitely hurts but I think that makes the story even more relevant. Players often think they know better and someone needs to stand up and tell them how it is, rather than let things fester.

 

[ColePens]

Ya I heard it, and to that I say Bourque should **** himself. Phil Bourque had no business telling bosses that the best coach in the history of sports was a bad thing for that gang.

If Scotty had hung around, we may have been the 'Wings.

Definitely the wrong place for this discussion, but one of the most fascinating to me. The true realization is that the Pens wouldn't have won in 92 unless they went against Bowman. That caused a HUGE issue. But that gave the players the ammunition against him. The rest is history. So unfortunately that was the turn for everything.

Now I was only 6 or 7 in 93 so I don't quite know what happened other than crying in my room for days when they lost. Was any of that Bowman's fault? He had a bad run with Buffalo (losing in the playoffs) before coming to Pittsburgh in the playoffs so he didn't quite have that insane pedigree that he does now/after the Wings job.

The dude was part of 13 Stanley Cups in some aspect. That is ****ing awesome. I think if we could have kept him, one of the late 90s teams would have won the Cup. 100%

 

[Terrapin]

Madden talking to John Steigerwald. Madden doing everything in his power to defend Sid and Mario, even after acknowledging Sid calls the shots on the team more than the coaches and GMs

 

[blueliner18]

To that I say great players are not always great coaches. If that were the case Gretzky would still be on an NHL bench.

 

[CHLLL Penguin]

Madden talking to John Steigerwald. Madden doing everything in his power to defend Sid and Mario, even after acknowledging Sid calls the shots on the team more than the coaches and GMs

Yeah it's pretty entertaining

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

But we don't have any Tocchets or Stevens anywhere. Had our share of Gibbons and Sutters though

Pens have drafted and acquired tons of big guys going back to Wells, Dziedzkc, Stojanov right through to Stone, Filewich, and Tangradi. These guys are not easy to find. Of course Shero didnt help matters and always seemed to go for undersized grinder types. That's why I'm in no hurry to move Sundqvist.

JR can't fix odd drafting over 8 years in 8 months. Most people said it would take him a couple years to address these issues, but now people are tripping when he can't wave a magic wand.

Oh my bad didn't see that. I think billybudd goes too far with the way the game is being called and size as the primary reason we aren't successful, but it's definitely a component.

Discipline, skill, grit, resiliency and size are all the necessary components to a cup winner. The discipline and resiliency are the two areas that concern me the most.

Lack of muscle isn't why pucks end up in our net and I never said it was. Hell, hardly any pucks do end up there unless Greiss is in. There's no "getting scored on" problem on this team to even look for causes, especially in the first two periods.

It IS why we don't score and have poor third periods. The other team's players are fresh as a daisy because they've taken no damage and not been asked to expend as much energy. Their D don't make bad passes because they don't have to look over their shoulders. Even if our guys were inclined to hit them, they won't make it in time, which the other team knows.

Our guys are anything but because they've been trying to power through illegal tactics and failing.

By the third period, it's not a level playing field between us and Florida/Wash/NYR/etc. It's just not.

In regards to Hoffman, Hoffman's very quick and very fast.

Speed was one of the only things that countered a strength deficit 5 on 5 the last time hockey was played as it is now. It's why Daigle had a renaissance season playing for the stingiest team in the league during the absolute worst of the dead puck era. It's why Dupuis had 50 points playing with defense-only forwards like Walz and Laaksonen. It's why Straka rediscovered his game.

The only one of our weak or undersized forwards who could be argued to be fast is Sutter, and he's not quick. If his wings were Hagelin and Grabner, instead of Spaling and Bennett, my guess is his line would get a lot of odd-mans and probably contribute at the level it needs to.

Agt the Caps, Letang ****ed up and Ovie went down the lane and scored. Then the refs called a BS penalty and they ended up with a 5-3 and scored.

Agt Col Bort made a dumb mental error and got out of his zone, and Comeau thought he was Serge Savard on the winner. In both games, the PP had a chance to tie it late and failed.

Bigger guys won't magically cure the lack of discipline and most troubling of all, lack of resiliency I see on this team.

**** has to change, and getting some bigger bodies will surely help, but it's only one part of the mix that needs to be corrected.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Madden talking to John Steigerwald. Madden doing everything in his power to defend Sid and Mario, even after acknowledging Sid calls the shots on the team more than the coaches and GMs

If that's true, then **** Sid. Deal him. Yesterday.

 

[cassius]

Before he was drafted, Saad was touted as a potential 1st overall and he takes his conditioning very seriously, unlike BB.. so I doubt he would have had a similar development path. The constant injuries signal a lack of dedication in the weight room.

Comparing the two players is just nuts.. Saad was better at 18 than BB will probably ever be. Saad's work ethic is as good as they come too.