We should not blow it up and stay the course

[Nakawick]

Pens and Oilers fan. Earliest memories of hockey are Wayne and Mario in 1987 Canada Cup. Followed Pens and Oilers after that, even when Wayne was traded. Have been watching Sid play since he was 6 in small town NS rinks.
The next Sid is playing for the Oilers. The existing core has been spoiled and there should be a rebuild around McDavid, Draisitl, Nurse, Klefbom and the pick this year. Now is the time to make moves to be competitive and still build for the future. I really think a deal for Hamonic will be made. I would also make an offer to Hamhuis. I think he would sign knowing that the Canucks are rebuilding and that the Oilers offer McDavid, new building, new beginning. Edmonton is also "close to home" for him. The young D need good partners, that is the biggest need. Hamonic will likely cost RNH or Eberle. I would try to move Yak in a deal for someone like Hayes from the Rangers, big guy, young, etc. I would kick the tires on Ladd or Lucic. I would move the other of Eberle or RNH in a deal for another solid veteran forward who can play in the top 6 if the right deal is there. I would hold onto Hall for another year on a wait and see.
The bottom line is that the team can get much better by moving players, insulating the young D and keeping the pick this year. You must get McDavid in the playoffs as soon as possible.

 

[McGoMcD]

Pens and Oilers fan. Earliest memories of hockey are Wayne and Mario in 1987 Canada Cup. Followed Pens and Oilers after that, even when Wayne was traded. Have been watching Sid play since he was 6 in small town NS rinks.
The next Sid is playing for the Oilers. The existing core has been spoiled and there should be a rebuild around McDavid, Draisitl, Nurse, Klefbom and the pick this year. Now is the time to make moves to be competitive and still build for the future. I really think a deal for Hamonic will be made. I would also make an offer to Hamhuis. I think he would sign knowing that the Canucks are rebuilding and that the Oilers offer McDavid, new building, new beginning. Edmonton is also "close to home" for him. The young D need good partners, that is the biggest need. Hamonic will likely cost RNH or Eberle. I would try to move Yak in a deal for someone like Hayes from the Rangers, big guy, young, etc. I would kick the tires on Ladd or Lucic. I would move the other of Eberle or RNH in a deal for another solid veteran forward who can play in the top 6 if the right deal is there. I would hold onto Hall for another year on a wait and see.
The bottom line is that the team can get much better by moving players, insulating the young D and keeping the pick this year. You must get McDavid in the playoffs as soon as possible.

The thing is you can get Hamhuis and Hammonic (which would be awesome) and not trade Ebs, Nuge, or hall. So I am not saying we don't get better, but there is no need to just trade those guys because they just can't win. If a deal makes sense, sure, but there we don't have to blow the team up trying.

 

[Nakawick]

The thing is you can get Hamhuis and Hammonic (which would be awesome) and not trade Ebs, Nuge, or hall. So I am not saying we don't get better, but there is no need to just trade those guys because they just can't win. If a deal makes sense, sure, but there we don't have to blow the team up trying.

How are you getting Hamonic? No way do I trade the pick for him. That pick should become part of the new core led by McDavid.

 

[McGoMcD]

How are you getting Hamonic? No way do I trade the pick for him. That pick should become part of the new core led by McDavid.

Nah, that is where I totally disagree. Couldn't disagree more. We want to shift out good players like Hall, Nuge, Ebs for no particular reason and wait on another 18 year old? No, just no. McDavid would hate it too.

 

[snipes]

Hall for Hamonic + Dal Colle + 3rd

 

[Nakawick]

Nah, that is where I totally disagree. Couldn't disagree more. We want to shift out good players like Hall, Nuge, Ebs for no particular reason and wait on another 18 year old? No, just no. McDavid would hate it too.

That pick should be a great player. Keep it and use 2 or all of RNG Eberle Yak and UFA's to build a better roster now. The pick will be cost controlled also.

 

[Joey Moss]

I think it's become very clear that McLellan is fed up with the inconsistency of this group and their work ethic. That's the problem I have with standing pat. This group, either individually or together has bad habits. They need a wake up call, or they need to head out the door. How many pieces move really depends on the draft lottery IMO. If we get Matthews, or even Laine I'm all for a major shakeup. Personally I don't see the kind of defenseman that it would take to trade Matthews will be available so making a pick is the best option. We could trade all four of Hall, RNH, Yakupov and Eberle and we would still have McDavid, Draisaitl and Matthews/Laine up front to build around. Insulate those pieces with veterans, size, grit, and a legitimate D core and we're in a much better position.

 

[Philly85*]

I don't really think this argument still exists. Most here have seen enough to know it isn't working. Let's also not forget that OP is the same guy who was gushing over Mactavish being hired as GM and was his biggest defender despite mounting evidence of how terrible he was. History might suggest this poster enjoys getting a rise out of fellow Oiler fans.

terrible poster who is consistently wrong about virtually everything I've ever seen him/her post

 

[Young Lions*]

I hate to break this to you but your opinion isn't the end all be all. Chia is most likely smarter than your crystal ball so excuse me if I doubt the return you suggest is accurate.

Yeah because it's not like there's any precedents we could look at for trades involving players like these.



But feel free to keep living in your fantasy world where Hall gets a top D man or whatever it is you have in mind.

 

[488fitter]

Yeah because it's not like there's any precedents we could look at for trades involving players like these.



But feel free to keep living in your fantasy world where Hall gets a top D man or whatever it is you have in mind.

Yeah kinda like a struggling Johansen who still returned Seth Jones? When it was also out there that Nuge was close to the same value? My money would be on Taylor Hall having slightly more value than that.

What predecents do you speak of because the previous 3 you mentioned I already addressed without you having anything else to say other than the fantasy world I live in?

 

[hawks889]

The thing is you can get Hamhuis and Hammonic (which would be awesome) and not trade Ebs, Nuge, or hall. So I am not saying we don't get better, but there is no need to just trade those guys because they just can't win. If a deal makes sense, sure, but there we don't have to blow the team up trying.

You need to stop falling in love with the players, they are nothing but commodites. By making trades of these players, you are also changing the mix and culture of team, because its obvious whatever you are doing now, is not working. Still being in 30th place is not acceptable, and just expecting that magically it will change overnight, when the last 4 years nothing has.

 

[joestevens29]

One of Hall, Eberle and RNH needs to move. Even if it's just to send a message to the remaining 2. The status quo is no longer good enough and we have seen enough uninspired and boneheaded play from these guys for long enough. For me it's Ebs that I move 1st with Hall being 2nd. Of course the return for each guy would be the deciding factor.

Honestly I don't know that moving RNH sends a message to Ebs or Hall. We moved gagner and what did it really do? Hall or Eberle seem to be the guys that everyone wants to hang out with on this team. Moving one of them seems to me would have the most impact. Especially considering if you do move RNH who the hell is really going to even notice the difference at this point?

 

[joestevens29]

I think it's become very clear that McLellan is fed up with the inconsistency of this group and their work ethic. That's the problem I have with standing pat. This group, either individually or together has bad habits. They need a wake up call, or they need to head out the door. How many pieces move really depends on the draft lottery IMO. If we get Matthews, or even Laine I'm all for a major shakeup. Personally I don't see the kind of defenseman that it would take to trade Matthews will be available so making a pick is the best option. We could trade all four of Hall, RNH, Yakupov and Eberle and we would still have McDavid, Draisaitl and Matthews/Laine up front to build around. Insulate those pieces with veterans, size, grit, and a legitimate D core and we're in a much better position.

The biggest problem and it's been here since Pronger left is who on this team has ever overcome difficult times?

We've lacked that proven vet that can either go out there and make a game changing play or someone that's been through it to calm the bench/dressing room down. Look at what TM said when Hendricks was gone earlier in the year. Something about how when he's not there literally no one says anything on the bench. Having that vocal vet that either can make an offensive play or has made them during his career has really hurt this club. An actual leader with skill is greatly missed by this team.

Granted TM probably wants guys to put that effort in, I just think he needs to realize that yet once again his players are being thrown into a losing situation right from the start and that eventually they are going to break. Unfortunately there are too many broken players on this club and you have no choice but to move some.

 

[tempest2i]

I don't care who gets traded as long as it makes the team better. At the end of the day, I cheer for the team rather than individual players.

 

[Young Lions*]

Yeah kinda like a struggling Johansen who still returned Seth Jones? When it was also out there that Nuge was close to the same value? My money would be on Taylor Hall having slightly more value than that.

That would be one, yes. Nuge for a young, unproven blueliner with potential. Not an impact player.

What predecents do you speak of because the previous 3 you mentioned I already addressed without you having anything else to say other than the fantasy world I live in?

Seguin, Nash, Kessel. The one's you didn't address but handwaved away.

Let's revisit what you said:

I'm not looking to send the core off without getting impact players back.

With that in mind, let's revist the deals.

The Seguin and Pronger trades hurt their teams dearly because they had to be moved due to personal reasons, greatly reducing their value.

Seguin didn't have to be moved. The Bruins made a choice. You could argue Ericksson is an impact player, but the gap between him and Seguin is enormous. And did the Bruins improve as a result?

I'm thinking Chia regrets that trade every day he looks at the standings.

Kinda funny you bring up the Nash trade. The Jackets had ONE season out of NINE where they had more wins than losses with Nash as their centre piece. After trading Nash, they have been a much better group overall. They went on to have 3 consecutive seasons of having more wins than losses up until this year where many had them contending for the playoffs if not more prior to the season. Jackets won that trade.

Correlation != causation. I'd argue the move to the cushier East was a bigger factor in the Jackets' improvement, but that's neither here nor there. Even if you think they won the trade, I don't think any of the package they got fits the bill as an "impact player."

Now let's look at a deal we didn't talk about, which was Kessel to Pittsburgh. The full deal was Kessel, a second-round pick, Tyler Biggs, and Tim Erixon for prospects Kasperi Kapanen and Scott Harrington, Nick Spaling, a first, and a third. It's not a bad trade as far as quantity for quality goes, but again, there's no impact player coming back.

So that's four instances of top-line players being moved with arguably only Seth Jones fitting the bill as an impact player and even in that case it wasn't a sure thing that he'd be able to step in in a top pairing role.

So, with these precedents in mind: why do you think trading any of Hall, RNH or Eberle will garner an impact player in return?

 

[488fitter]

That would be one, yes. Nuge for a young, unproven blueliner with potential. Not an impact player.



Seguin, Nash, Kessel. The one's you didn't address but handwaved away.

Let's revisit what you said:



With that in mind, let's revist the deals.



Seguin didn't have to be moved. The Bruins made a choice. You could argue Ericksson is an impact player, but the gap between him and Seguin is enormous. And did the Bruins improve as a result?

I'm thinking Chia regrets that trade every day he looks at the standings.



Correlation != causation. I'd argue the move to the cushier East was a bigger factor in the Jackets' improvement, but that's neither here nor there. Even if you think they won the trade, I don't think any of the package they got fits the bill as an "impact player."

Now let's look at a deal we didn't talk about, which was Kessel to Pittsburgh. The full deal was Kessel, a second-round pick, Tyler Biggs, and Tim Erixon for prospects Kasperi Kapanen and Scott Harrington, Nick Spaling, a first, and a third. It's not a bad trade as far as quantity for quality goes, but again, there's no impact player coming back.

So that's four instances of top-line players being moved with arguably only Seth Jones fitting the bill as an impact player and even in that case it wasn't a sure thing that he'd be able to step in in a top pairing role.

So, with these precedents in mind: why do you think trading any of Hall, RNH or Eberle will garner an impact player in return?

How exactly is Seth Jones not an impact player? Yikes.

The Kessel trade was the Leafs wanting to go into full tank mode and shed salary. They weren't looking for impact players coming back. That's nothing like the deal Chia would make for our top players.

The Seguin deal was still forced and it wasn't known at the time he was going to explode into the player he is. We know what we have with our guys. I'm sure Cam Neely regrets that trade more than Chia.

The Nash trade improved Columbus as a whole. The stats don't lie.

Our discussion is based on you thinking we can only get spare parts while I disagree. Previous trades and different situations won't change either of our opinions, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Beerfish]

Nah, that is where I totally disagree. Couldn't disagree more. We want to shift out good players like Hall, Nuge, Ebs for no particular reason and wait on another 18 year old? No, just no. McDavid would hate it too.

Being dead last every stinking year, not improving, and being humiliated by Calgary at home in a 'I don't care' kind of way is 'no good reason'?

Just what is your plan for this team to get better? It seems like you are totally in line with previous managements plan of just sit on your rump shuffle around the bottom of the roster, cross your fingers and hope one day the top end players get it, when all evidence points to, they are not getting it.

 

[Young Lions*]

How exactly is Seth Jones not an impact player? Yikes.

Young sheltered second pairing D man with some question marks who was deemed expendable by his existing team. Like I said, you could argue the case and, interestingly enough, he went for a C, which is always getting a bigger return than a winger.

The Kessel trade was the Leafs wanting to go into full tank mode and shed salary. They weren't looking for impact players coming back. That's nothing like the deal Chia would make for our top players.

You don't think they would have taken a younger player with upside instead of picks if they could have?

The Seguin deal was still forced and it wasn't known at the time he was going to explode into the player he is. We know what we have with our guys. I'm sure Cam Neely regrets that trade more than Chia.

Come on, Seguin was a top 2 pick in the draft who was always in the mix for the #1 spot. That trade was a dud from the get go. As for Neely or Chia, well, Neely may have loaded the gun, but Chia pulled the trigger.

The Nash trade improved Columbus as a whole. The stats don't lie.

But that wasn't the question. It was about getting an impact player. But it's worth noting the biggest difference came in the area of goaltending: they went from a team ES SV% of .917 with Nash to .933 without. Don't think the trade had much impact on that.

Our discussion is based on you thinking we can only get spare parts while I disagree. Previous trades and different situations won't change either of our opinions, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

You haven't answered my question, though. Why do you think it'll be different for us?

 

[Hoogaar23]

Does any combination of Yandle, Demers, Goligoski, and Hamhuis mostly fix our D? One of those plus Hamonic? Yes we would still be missing a true #1, but we could at least ice 6 #2-4 guys.

And after 10 years no playoffs, 6 years at or near the bottom, nobody other than McDavid is untouchable for me, but that doesn't mean I'm jettisoning good players for scraps. The return needs to be there.

That being said - given McLellan's rant, I would be incredibly surprised if we start the season with all of Yakupov, Eberle, RNH, and Hall still in the lineup. Almost sure one of them gets dealt. I just hope the return doesn't delay the mythical upswing even more.

 

[RebuildTheRebuild]

I am all for making changes to the core but the biggest concern has to be selling 60 cents on the dollar on some players. Selling off players and replacing them with "harder working" players sounds nice but sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. I feel like there is this mirage of our players (namely our top end forwards) that they don't work hard. Now don't get me wrong here sometimes our players do take the off game which isn't good but people make it sound like the root cause of the problem is working hard. The root cause is having a non-NHL calibre defence that cannot move the puck.

I just wonder though if this team had an actual defence that can move the puck would they appear to be working harder. Truly this team sucks because our defence can't move the puck. Our forwards are often having to go back into our own zone and move the puck themselves because our defence is incapable of it.

 

[Beerfish]

I am all for making changes to the core but the biggest concern has to be selling 60 cents on the dollar on some players. Selling off players and replacing them with "harder working" players sounds nice but sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. I feel like there is this mirage of our players (namely our top end forwards) that they don't work hard. Now don't get me wrong here sometimes our players do take the off game which isn't good but people make it sound like the root cause of the problem is working hard. The root cause is having a non-NHL calibre defence that cannot move the puck.

I just wonder though if this team had an actual defence that can move the puck would they appear to be working harder. Truly this team sucks because our defence can't move the puck. Our forwards are often having to go back into our own zone and move the puck themselves because our defence is incapable of it.

Here is the big issue with previous management groups and us as fans.

We don't want to sell for 60 cents on the dollar which is the proper sentiment to have, however when the players are playing at 100 cents on on the dollar they become untouchable and people feel they have turned the corner so don't trade them.

Let's look at a few of our oilers. Yakupov early in the year when with McDavid suddenly became a ppg player and looked good. Trade him now? For gods sakes no!

Hall and Drai just tearing it up the 1st half of the season, one of the best two player combos in the league, trade them now when they are at 100 cents on the dollar? for gods sakes no!

You can add all the rest of our top end guys, Nurse, Eberle, RNH etc etc. When they are playing well no one wants to trade them, when they are playing poorly we are not getting value.

Our Gm needs to have the balls to make his decisions on what he wants the team to look like a few years down the road and move some players when they are playing well, even if it is unpopular.

 

[488fitter]

Young sheltered second pairing D man with some question marks who was deemed expendable by his existing team. Like I said, you could argue the case and, interestingly enough, he went for a C, which is always getting a bigger return than a winger.

Yeah expendable by a team that had the best d-corps in the league. So Nuge has more value than Hall now because he's a center?

You don't think they would have taken a younger player with upside instead of picks if they could have?

Again, the Kessel trade will be nothing like what Hall would go for so if you think that'll be the case then that's your opinion, not mine.

Come on, Seguin was a top 2 pick in the draft who was always in the mix for the #1 spot. That trade was a dud from the get go. As for Neely or Chia, well, Neely may have loaded the gun, but Chia pulled the trigger.

Sure he was a stud from the get go but it's been well documented why he was moved out. Not the same scenario here. Him exploding since the trade makes it look more lopsided in hindsight. Im not saying that trade wasn't a dud. Just different situations.

But that wasn't the question. It was about getting an impact player. But it's worth noting the biggest difference came in the area of goaltending: they went from a team ES SV% of .917 with Nash to .933 without. Don't think the trade had much impact on that.

Well Anisimov and Dubinsky have held their own since the trade and Rychel is still growing. I'd call 2 out of 3 impact players. Just ask Crosby about Dubinsky. And cherry picking a goaltending stat that is .016 better is funny. Team defense by adding 2 centermen while subtracting one winger most likely helped this stat you brought up.

You haven't answered my question, though. Why do you think it'll be different for us?

Because Chia isn't looking for spare parts. Pretty simple to grasp. Why would he pull the trigger on a deal like the Kessel trade. He's looking to improve the team immediately, not continue to rebuild.

How about you answer a question for me. What do you see as Halls value by using names instead of positions like 3-4 d + bottom 6er?

 

[Young Lions*]

Because Chia isn't looking for spare parts. Pretty simple to grasp.

Chia wanting an impact player is not the same thing as 29 other GMs giving him an impact player. Look at the Hamonic situation or even the talk around teams not being able to meet Chia's price on Nail freaking Yakupov at the TDL.

Trades are rare. Trades involving an exchange of impact players even moreso and usually then only in extenuating circumstances.

Why would he pull the trigger on a deal like the Kessel trade. He's looking to improve the team immediately, not continue to rebuild.

I'm aware. That's why I don't think more than one of these guys gets moved (my money is on Eberle) and even then at a bit of a loss.

How about you answer a question for me. What do you see as Halls value by using names instead of positions like 3-4 d + bottom 6er?

Depends what you mean by value. There's what a player is arguably worth and there's what you can actually get and the two rarely mesh.

For example, on paper, Hall is probably worth a top pairing D man, let's say Pietrangelo. IRL, though, that trade never happens.

A more realistic return would be Hall for Hamonic and a depth player with prospects opicjks going one way or another.

 

[Mcnotloilersfan]

My gut feeling is Eberle and Yak are gone for sure. Then it will be one of Hall or Nuge. It could very well be that Chia and Mclellan see value in keeping one or the other and have decided to trade the one that brings the better return on D.

Is it weird that I would love to see new jerseys next year too? I wouldnt mind going back to the darker blue. Those jerseys remind me of the blue collar hard working gritty teams that used to play in Edmonton. I honestly think darker jerseys are more intimidating in general.

New team, new arena, new jerseys, fresh start.

To cap it all off, I would love if the 2017 pick could be part of our changes this year. No reward for failure. No reason to cheer for losses this time of year.

 

[_Del_]

You can say the Seguin trade was a dud (and it wasn't great), but if Edmonton had traded Eberle for Eriksson, Reilly Smith, Joe Morrow, and Fraser, three years ago, they might be a better team at the moment. They'd still need to fix the D, but having two-way guys like Eriksson and Smith on the wings would be a great help to the young centers, and I think you'd be more competitive.
Even now, Eriksson and Smith and a young D style trade would be a decent return (ignoring Eriksson approaching UFA). Then you could flip RNH for D, without worrying about quality forward depth.


Assuming you move Eberle, Yak, and maybe RNH, I think it is possible (even likely) that you'll be disappointed in the returns you eventually get, but as a whole you'll end up in a much better position next September when the dust settles.