We should not blow it up and stay the course

[Beerfish]

I dont think thats what he is saying. He said ALL key positions, didn't he? He is just saying that it isn't a "culture" problem, it is a problem of being extremely one-dimensional. Fill the holes, and bring balance to this roster and it will be a good team.

Simple question, how?

How do you bring balance if you don't move some of the core? you can't.

Fill the holes means the same thing it has meant the past 5-7 years, shuffle around bottom line players and bottom pair dmen.

This team is walking living proof of the old adage that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

 

[Beerfish]

Literally no one is saying the team should stand pat. Some are just finding the sensible middle ground between that and "ZOMG BLOWS IT UP !!!1!"

The middle ground has gotten us to dead last or almost dead last year after year.

The oilers will improve next year for sure no matter what they do for one reason, McDavid, that's it.

 

[shoop]

The middle ground has gotten us to dead last or almost dead last year after year.

The oilers will improve next year for sure no matter what they do for one reason, McDavid, that's it.

Yes. The world is that simple. It really is black and white.

Unless McDavid gets hurt again...

 

[Young Lions*]

The middle ground has gotten us to dead last or almost dead last year after year.

Nonsense. The issue is entirely one of execution, not approach. LoweTambMac's inability to assess talent is the reason we're dead last.

The oilers will improve next year for sure no matter what they do for one reason, McDavid, that's it

Or they could make some dumb moves and keep spinning their wheels as a result.

 

[Zaddy]

Literally no one is saying the team should stand pat. Some are just finding the sensible middle ground between that and "ZOMG BLOWS IT UP !!!1!"

How is staying the course not staying pat? Staying the course means not dealing anyone from the core, no?

Even if we pretend that this core isn't flawed and has what it takes to win, you are not likely to fill the holes in the lineup without dealing one or more of them.

 

[TheRebuild]

Anyone wanting to "stay the course" is ok with finishing 30th again next year.

 

[Young Lions*]

How is staying the course not staying pat? Staying the course means not dealing anyone from the core, no?

Well first we have to be clear on what the course is. We're not under the MacTambLowe reign of error anymore, so their moves (opr lack thereof) should not be considered the basis for future actions. Instead, Chia has set a course that has seen us add a legit starting goalie, some size and grit up front, a legit top 4 d-man and has done so without moving any core pieces.

Now here's what the OP said and with which I agree:

I don't think we should blow the team up, if a deal works for a key player then great, do it of course. However, Chia should go into the off-season not with the goal of blowing anything up and changing the total make up of the team. Chia should make marginal changes that address weaknesses. Add a D man of course, via FA or Trade. I am not saying we don't need any changes, but that we dont' need radical changes.

I'm fine with moving a piece from the core (though I consider hall nigh-untouchable and would prefer to keep RNH if at all possible) for the right return, but it shouldn't be taken as a given that you do so.

Even if we pretend that this core isn't flawed and has what it takes to win, you are not likely to fill the holes in the lineup without dealing one or more of them.

To the first part: how can we know when they've never had a team built around them?

To the second: how do other teams improve or maintain their success without dealing their top pieces?

 

[Tekneek]

I don't think Chia is going to "blow it up." It's a myth that it is a successful strategy anyway. An empty cupboard takes time to develop. If you pay attention when guys like Gretzky and Messier talk about their early years, they regularly sing the praises of the elder men on those teams. The guys who don't get the glory, had paid their dues, and knew how to just go out there and work hard. If you have an empty cupboard, you don't have those kinds of guys around to influence them. We tried that and we have a bunch of talented guys who don't know anything about what winning. A very telling comment came from Al Hamilton (I think) last night, when he said (and I may be paraphrasing) "It will be a lot of fun when these kids learn what winning means."

"Stay the course" does not mean you bring the same list of guys back and hope for a different result (although some of the guys will obviously continue to improve, so you don't really have the same exact assets coming back). It means not dismantling everything you have and starting over. That would destine the club to be in the cellar even longer. You play the cards you have. Flip them for improvements where you can, discard what you don't need, and give it another go.

 

[Beerfish]

Nonsense. The issue is entirely one of execution, not approach. LoweTambMac's inability to assess talent is the reason we're dead last.



Or they could make some dumb moves and keep spinning their wheels as a result.

You mean, Lowe, Tambelinni and Chiarlelli right? Because Chia did the same thing as the other two last year and you want him to do the same thing this year.

You win and lose in this league with your top line players, not your bottom two lines and bottom dmen.

Execution? You mean you want to get better bottom line players and lower end dmen but not pay the price needed to get these kind of guys?

Well making no meaningful moves has them spinning their wheels and that is exactly what you want to continue.

You build the top end of your roster and then fill in the holes. The oilers and obviously some on here feel that you fill in the bottom part of your roster 1st and then hope the holes in the top half just disappear somehow by magic.

 

[Beerfish]

I don't think Chia is going to "blow it up." It's a myth that it is a successful strategy anyway. An empty cupboard takes time to develop. If you pay attention when guys like Gretzky and Messier talk about their early years, they regularly sing the praises of the elder men on those teams. The guys who don't get the glory, had paid their dues, and knew how to just go out there and work hard. If you have an empty cupboard, you don't have those kinds of guys around to influence them. We tried that and we have a bunch of talented guys who don't know anything about what winning. A very telling comment came from Al Hamilton (I think) last night, when he said (and I may be paraphrasing) "It will be a lot of fun when these kids learn what winning means."

"Stay the course" does not mean you bring the same list of guys back and hope for a different result (although some of the guys will obviously continue to improve, so you don't really have the same exact assets coming back). It means not dismantling everything you have and starting over. That would destine the club to be in the cellar even longer. You play the cards you have. Flip them for improvements where you can, discard what you don't need, and give it another go.

I find that 2nd paragraph totally contradictory. Stay the course except play your cars, flip them for improvements and discard what you don't need. That is not staying the course.

 

[alphahelix]

IMHO "staying the course" would be blowing it up again.

You guys act like we haven't turned over 6-10 players and 1-4 coaches/staff annually for the past 10 years.

It doesn't help just to cut anybody and replace them with anybody. You have to identify players that are dragging (Korpikoski) and add players that can actually assist (Maroon).

Unfortunately 80% of the time we are removing good players or personnel and adding average or below average personnel. Net losses.

We need net gains. Blowing things up for the sake of blowing things up will not result in improvement. Its what we do every year. The definition of insanity would be doing it again.

 

[McGoMcD]

I don't see how you can take anything from last nights game. Canucks have checked out and it's not like the Oilers looked particularly good, at least not in the 2 periods I watched of the game. The 1st period in particular was awful and a real snoozefest that made you wonder where all those shiny 1st overalls were hiding.

Staying the course is the absolute worst thing to do. I just don't understand how people can STILL preach that after all these years. This team has fundamental issues that are not going away. Staying the course does nothing to change that.

So this is it. First I get frustration after all these years, but all these years we were suppose to be rebuilding. This year we were suppose to take a step forward and we did. So blowing a rebuild up because we have sucked so long is chopping of your broken leg because it hasn't worked in so long.

The team took a step forward, you have to realize that. Magically trading one guy for another isn't' going to solve all our problems. The solution to the problem is stay the course.

 

[McGoMcD]

I find that 2nd paragraph totally contradictory. Stay the course except play your cars, flip them for improvements and discard what you don't need. That is not staying the course.

It should be noted that what I meant, and I started the thread, by staying the course was not trading any of Ebs, Hall, Nuge, ect just becuase the team needed a new look and these players were damaged goods. Of course the team will make moves in the off season, that is a given. The question is should Chia looked at shipping out one of the "core" just to get rid of them because they can't win.

 

[Tekneek]

I find that 2nd paragraph totally contradictory. Stay the course except play your cars, flip them for improvements and discard what you don't need. That is not staying the course.

It isn't? You think making improvements along the way is the same thing as a complete rebuild? If I build an addition to a house, or I remodel my kitchen, did I tear it down completely and build an entirely new structure?

 

[Young Lions*]

You mean, Lowe, Tambelinni and Chiarlelli right? Because Chia did the same thing as the other two last year and you want him to do the same thing this year.

Yeah if you ignore the part where Chia actually added, you know, good players.

You win and lose in this league with your top line players, not your bottom two lines and bottom dmen.

You win in this league with depth and good D and, here's the kicker, not playing players above their level of ability.

Execution? You mean you want to get better bottom line players and lower end dmen but not pay the price needed to get these kind of guys?

No, you pay the price needed. That price isn't Hall, Nuge etc, though.

Well making no meaningful moves has them spinning their wheels and that is exactly what you want to continue.

I can't tell if you're not reading my posts or are being obtuse on purpose or what. They need to make meaningful moves. But they don't have to blow things up to do so. How is this so hard to grasp?

You build the top end of your roster and then fill in the holes. The oilers and obviously some on here feel that you fill in the bottom part of your roster 1st and then hope the holes in the top half just disappear somehow by magic.

Whatever holes are in the top half pale to insignificance compared to the holes elsewhere on the roster.

It's baffling that people can look at this lineup on paper, even when 100% healthy, and determine that the top of the order is what's keeping them from gliory.

This was our opening night D-corps:

Klefbom
Sekera
Fayne
Reinhart
Schultz
Gryba

Two top four D, three bottom pairing D, one AHL D. And it got worse from there.

The bottom six:
Lander
Hendricks
Korpikoski
Letestu
Gazdic
Yakupov

With the possible exception of Yak, that's basically two fourth lines.

But sure, yeah: it's Hall and co's fault.

 

[DustinPenner]

the question is what can we land for our core pieces, if ebs can land us harmonic, u have to do it in our pos, cause we can replace ebs with the pick, but injuries were rly a problem this year, so ithink its 2 early 2 blow everything up. if there is no improvement next year, then we can talk again

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

Ebs for Troubs (thereby cementing the nickname "wet jet")
Yak, Fayne and 2nd for Hamonic and 5th.

Hall-Drai-Eriksson
Pouliot-McDavid-Stewart
Maroon-RNH-Laine
Hendricks-Letestu-Pakarinen
Korpi, Lander

Klefbom-Hamonic
Sekera-Trouba
Nurse-Davidson
Gryba

Talbot
Ramo

 

[Tekneek]

the question is what can we land for our core pieces, if ebs can land us harmonic, u have to do it in our pos, cause we can replace ebs with the pick, but injuries were rly a problem this year, so ithink its 2 early 2 blow everything up. if there is no improvement next year, then we can talk again

Let's see if the Oilers win the draft lottery. If that happens, they are better off holding an auction for it instead of drafting Matthews and may not have to part with the core to land some very useful assets.

 

[Jet Walters]

It isn't? You think making improvements along the way is the same thing as a complete rebuild? If I build an addition to a house, or I remodel my kitchen, did I tear it down completely and build an entirely new structure?

What if the idiot contractor, let's call him MacLoweson, designed and built a house with all the fancy bells and whistles, but forgot to add a toilet, an oven, and a furnace.

I wouldn't tear down the house, but I'd be making damn sure that I add what the house needs so I'm not taking a dump into a bucket in -30 temperatures eating a microwaved TV dinner for Christmas in December.

Therein lies the problem with the Oilers. They have been built without essential components by a group of people who though they were smarter than the rest of the league.

 

[The Perfect Human*]

IMHO "staying the course" would be blowing it up again.

You guys act like we haven't turned over 6-10 players and 1-4 coaches/staff annually for the past 10 years.

It doesn't help just to cut anybody and replace them with anybody. You have to identify players that are dragging (Korpikoski) and add players that can actually assist (Maroon).

Unfortunately 80% of the time we are removing good players or personnel and adding average or below average personnel. Net losses.

We need net gains. Blowing things up for the sake of blowing things up will not result in improvement. Its what we do every year. The definition of insanity would be doing it again.

Player-wise we only blow up the periphery players year in year out. This year we need to blow up the core. The old core.

 

[Dan403]

IMHO "staying the course" would be blowing it up again.

You guys act like we haven't turned over 6-10 players and 1-4 coaches/staff annually for the past 10 years.

It doesn't help just to cut anybody and replace them with anybody. You have to identify players that are dragging (Korpikoski) and add players that can actually assist (Maroon).

Unfortunately 80% of the time we are removing good players or personnel and adding average or below average personnel. Net losses.

We need net gains. Blowing things up for the sake of blowing things up will not result in improvement. Its what we do every year. The definition of insanity would be doing it again.

Hey. Settle down with that common sense stuff.

 

[Beerfish]

It isn't? You think making improvements along the way is the same thing as a complete rebuild? If I build an addition to a house, or I remodel my kitchen, did I tear it down completely and build an entirely new structure?

Did you build a new addition on top of the one that fell off the house last year becasue the foundation was rotten? Just keep adding those additions and painting while the houses foundation keeps shifting.

The Oilers over the past years have added a lot of stuff to their house and then ripped that stuff out and added more similar stuff, year after year after year.

They've proved time and time again that the present make up of the top end of the team is not working.

We have good forwards, an abundance of them. We have a terrible defense and not many good forwards of a certain type.

The only way to change this dynamic is getting value for giving value. Adding a few more Andy Suttons, Belangers, Purcells, etc etc etc is not going to change things.

 

[McGoMcD]

IMHO "staying the course" would be blowing it up again.

You guys act like we haven't turned over 6-10 players and 1-4 coaches/staff annually for the past 10 years.

It doesn't help just to cut anybody and replace them with anybody. You have to identify players that are dragging (Korpikoski) and add players that can actually assist (Maroon).

Unfortunately 80% of the time we are removing good players or personnel and adding average or below average personnel. Net losses.

We need net gains. Blowing things up for the sake of blowing things up will not result in improvement. Its what we do every year. The definition of insanity would be doing it again.

I agree. Which is why we stay the course. If we trade Hall, Ebs, Nuge etc we get back 70 cents on the dollar. I know, I know, how do I know that? I don't, just that most trades you do when you feel forced to move some on you end up losing.

Those players need stability and a supporting cast. Those core guys are not the problem, everything else changing around them is the problem. Instead of blowing it up, for once we need to do the exact opposite. Bring back TM, bring back most of the players. Sure add a Dman or two. But that's it. Replace players with better players, don't make a bunch of moves for no reason. That is the norm. Not blowing it up is what we are missing.

 

[Tekneek]

What if the idiot contractor, let's call him MacLoweson, designed and built a house with all the fancy bells and whistles, but forgot to add a toilet, an oven, and a furnace.

I wouldn't tear down the house, but I'd be making damn sure that I add what the house needs so I'm not taking a dump into a bucket in -30 temperatures eating a microwaved TV dinner for Christmas in December.

Therein lies the problem with the Oilers. They have been built without essential components by a group of people who though they were smarter than the rest of the league.

Right. You identify your problems and you work towards addressing them. That is what Chia has been doing and what I expect he will continue to do. Tearing down the house might get you there, eventually, but in the short term you will have bigger problems than just not having those three things. A house without those things in -30 temperatures is still better than no house at all.

 

[Zaddy]

Well first we have to be clear on what the course is. We're not under the MacTambLowe reign of error anymore, so their moves (opr lack thereof) should not be considered the basis for future actions. Instead, Chia has set a course that has seen us add a legit starting goalie, some size and grit up front, a legit top 4 d-man and has done so without moving any core pieces.

Now here's what the OP said and with which I agree:

I'm fine with moving a piece from the core (though I consider hall nigh-untouchable and would prefer to keep RNH if at all possible) for the right return, but it shouldn't be taken as a given that you do so.

I'm not saying we need to "blow it up", I'm saying we shouldn't "stay the course". In my mind those two things are at complete opposites on the spectrum. It's not an either or question. Staying the course would be a mistake, and so would blowing it up completely be as well.

To the first part: how can we know when they've never had a team built around them?

So what is your plan to do so? Which top4 d-men are available for scraps this summer? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single one.

To the second: how do other teams improve or maintain their success without dealing their top pieces?

Just to be clear here, what the Oilers need are to improve their blueline drastically. You ask what other teams do to be successful (in that same area). Well, for the most part, they draft them. LA got Doughty through the draft, Chicago got Keith, Seabrook and Hjalmarsson through the draft, St. Louis got Pietrangelo through the draft, Nashville Weber and Josi.

Unfortunately I don't think Oilers can afford to sit on their hands waiting to draft a d-man, develop him and hope he turns into a #1. The time is now, we need to start turning this thing around sooner rather than later. With there being some d-men out there like Hamonic, Vatanen, Shattenkirk, Trouba etc that are likely available for the right price you can't be afraid to tear apart the core or whatever when you have a chance to upgrade your defense by a significant margin.